The trouble with Florida's 'stand your ground' law

[Hazcat]

In Print: Tuesday, March 20, 2012

Once again Florida's "stand your ground" law is making headlines that demonstrate its dangerous consequences. George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain in Sanford, is claiming self-defense after shooting and killing 17-year-old Trayvon Martin on Feb. 26. Zimmerman is free under "stand your ground" as a police investigation drags on. Meanwhile a young man who was carrying nothing more than iced tea and Skittles is dead and his parents justifiably want answers. The racial elements of the shooting, Martin is black and Zimmerman is not, add another troubling layer to the lack of an arrest. But it is the "stand your ground" law that gives legal immunity to people who come to an argument with a hot temper and a ready gun.

The Florida Legislature passed the law in 2005 at the behest of the National Rifle Association but over the staunch objections of law enforcement. The law allows the use of deadly force when a person is in a place he has a right to be and feels reasonably threatened with serious harm. Opponents dubbed it the "shoot first" law because people have no duty to attempt to retreat from a threat of violence even if they could do so safely. History has borne them out.

Since the law went into effect, reports of justifiable homicides have tripled, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. It has been used to absolve violence resulting from road rage, barroom arguments and even a gang gunfight. In 2008, two gangs in Tallahassee got into a shootout where a 15-year-old boy was killed. The charges were dismissed by a judge citing the "stand your ground" law.

--SNIP--

More BS like this and comments at link.


http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/the-trouble-with-floridas-stand-your-ground-law/1220845

[Solus]

If the few facts presented in this biased report are true, I'd say Zimmerman is on shaky ground.

I'm not one to say you should avoid getting involved if you see a crime being committed, but one to say you should.

However, no crime was being committed here (that we know of).  Also, I'd not say you should not follow someone suspicious in your neighborhood, especially if you are part of the Neighborhood Watch.  However, if you do choose to follow, you  have a responsibility not to cause a confrontation or escalation. 

Maybe Zimmerman confronted the kid, wanted to know what he was doing in the neighborhood and started shoving him and manhandling him back to the exit and the kid took offense, pushed back, and threatened to kick butt if Zimmerman didn't stop pushing.

Maybe the kid spotted Zimmerman tailing him, took offense and attacked Zimmerman violently to teach him a lesson.

The report is undoubtedly biased and it would not be out of bounds to suggest that if facts were left out, it was because they did not support the reporter's bias, but we don't know for sure.

In any case, following someone you feel is suspicious while you are armed is about as close to stepping over the line as you can get and still claim self defense in a confrontation.   

[tombogan03884]

Here is the latest news report I've seen, I don't think we are getting all the facts.

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-killing-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html

In the final moments of his life, Trayvon Martin was being hounded by a strange man on a cellphone who ran after him, cornered him and confronted him, according to the teenage girl whose call logs show she was on the phone with the 17-year-old boy in the moments before neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman shot him dead.

Martin's death Feb. 26 has stirred national outrage and protests, partly prompting the U.S. Justice Department's Civil Rights Division and the FBI to open an investigation into the case.

ABC News was there exclusively as the 16-year-old girl told Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump about the last moments of the teenager's life.

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."

Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

The line went dead. Besides screams heard on 911 calls that night as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words he said.

Trayvon's phone logs, also obtained exclusively by ABC News, show the conversation occurred five minutes before police first arrived on scene. The young woman's parents asked that her name not be used, and that only an attorney could ask her questions.

Martin's father, Tracey Martin, and mother, Sybrina Fulton, listened to the call along with ABC News, ashen-faced.

"He knew he was being followed and tried to get away from the guy, and the guy still caught up with him," Tracey Martin said. "And that's the most disturbing part. He thought he had got away from the guy and the guy back-tracked for him."

The teen was killed by Zimmerman while walking back to his father's fiancés home after stepping out to buy Skittles and some iced tea during the NBA All-Star Game. After weeks of relentless pressure, the Sanford Police have decided to release emergency and non-emergency calls placed during the incident.

"These a**holes always get away," Zimmerman says in a call to a non-emergency number.

Dispatcher: "Are you following him?"

Zimmerman: "Yeah."

Dispatcher: "We don't need you to do that."

An altercation soon ensued. A few moments later a torrent of 911 calls flooded in and Martin was killed by a single bullet. Zimmerman claimed self-defense and has yet to be arrested, stoking outrage and claims of prejudice against the police department.

"When George Zimmerman is arrested, tried and convicted I will get a little rest," Tracey Martin said.

According to a statement by the Justice Department, "The department will conduct a thorough and independent review of all of the evidence and take appropriate action and the conclusion of the investigation. … The government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a person acted intentionally and with the specific intent to do something which the law forbids. Negligence, recklessness, mistakes and accidents are not prosecutable under the federal criminal civil rights laws."

Nearly half a million people have signed an online petition on change.org urging law enforcement officials to step in and arrest Zimmerman. Protests have played out in the Florida town all week with a large gathering expected Thursday.

Zimmerman violated major principles of the Neighborhood Watch manual, ABC News has learned. The manual from the Neighborhood Watch program states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers. And they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles."

According to Chris Tutko, the director of the National Neighborhood Watch program, there are about 22,000 registered watch groups nationwide, and Zimmerman was not part of a registered group, which police were not aware of at the time of the incident.

[Hazcat]

The thing is the Tampabay Times (formerly ST Petersburg Times) AKA Pravda West, immediately jumps on the law using the same old 'blood in the streets' argument.

[tombogan03884]

Never let a crisis go to waste.

[Sponsor]

[alfsauve]

And where's the balance?   What has happened to crime as a result?

[twyacht]

Since Al Sharpton, has already started organizing rallies, and the New Black Liberation Militia has already issued an order for his head, and the media is judging him as guilty until proven innocent,.....and now Eric Holder is involved....

Should turn out well...

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/well-find-him-black-militia-organization-vows-vengeance-on-trayvon-martin-shooter/

The Perfect Storm

[Ulmus]

Oy.  If the incident had been properly investigated from the start, all this mess wouln't have happened.

Let's look at the basics:

Did Zimmerman escalate the situation by chasing Martin?
Was there disparity of force?  Was Martin physically larger than Zimmerman?
Did Matrin have a weapon?

Yes, not sure but the pictures point to no, and no.

The fact that Martin was retreating from Zimmerman negates a life or death situation and warrants further investigation.  Not judgement. Not prosecution.  Just investigation and further gathering of facts.

[Hazcat]

Oy.  If the incident had been properly investigated from the start, all this mess wouln't have happened.

Let's look at the basics:

Did Zimmerman escalate the situation by chasing Martin?
Was there disparity of force?  Was Martin physically larger than Zimmerman?
Did Matrin have a weapon?

Yes, not sure but the pictures point to no, and no.

The fact that Martin was retreating from Zimmerman negates a life or death situation and warrants further investigation.  Not judgement. Not prosecution.  Just investigation and further gathering of facts.

AGREED!

[Solus]

Oy.  If the incident had been properly investigated from the start, all this mess wouln't have happened.

Let's look at the basics:

Did Zimmerman escalate the situation by chasing Martin?
Was there disparity of force?  Was Martin physically larger than Zimmerman?
Did Matrin have a weapon?

Yes, not sure but the pictures point to no, and no.

The fact that Martin was retreating from Zimmerman negates a life or death situation and warrants further investigation.  Not judgement. Not prosecution.  Just investigation and further gathering of facts.

Absolutely.  If there is fault here, it lies with the Police Jurisdiction, not with the "Castle Doctrine" law.

We don't know what statement Zimmerman made at the scene and if he was the only witness present, but we do know that  nothing more threatening that a spilled ice tea, a bag of candy and the kids dropped cell phone is listed in any report we've seen.  Seems a no brainer to check the cell phone call log and speak with possible witnesses before making any statement.

Sure seems like a trip to the precinct for questioning while a few calls are made and an investigation done would not be out of line.

Pictures I've seen of the kid sure didn't look like he could present much of a  physical threat.