Author Topic: Ranger and Black Talon ammo?  (Read 43082 times)

TSB

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Re: Ranger and Black Talon ammo?
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2008, 08:59:54 AM »
They were woried about getting diseases. 

Nationally, according to statistics, only 2 out of 10 doctors and nurses bother to wash their hands between patients.  I have first hand experience with being infected while in the operating room.  Doctors need to shut up and do their jobs..they nearly killed me without firing a shot....

T

CJS3

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Re: Ranger and Black Talon ammo?
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2008, 11:00:15 AM »
I agree. Can we put congressmen at the front of that line?

+++1 ;D
Children, pets, and slaves are taken care of. Free Men take care of themselves.

PegLeg45

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Re: Ranger and Black Talon ammo?
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2008, 11:31:44 AM »
Nationally, according to statistics, only 2 out of 10 doctors and nurses bother to wash their hands between patients.  I have first hand experience with being infected while in the operating room.  Doctors need to shut up and do their jobs..they nearly killed me without firing a shot....

T

Didn't write this myself...read it somewhere else. It may not be hard facts, but it IS a plausible argument:


Doctors And Guns
11-27-6

FACTS TO PONDER
 
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000
 
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000
 
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.
 
Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.
 
Now think about this...
 
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. (Yes, that's 80 million..) 
 
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.   
 
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188
 
Statistics courtesy of the FBI 
 
So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. 
 
Remember - "Guns don't kill people, doctors do." 
 
FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT  ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

http://www.rense.com/general74/docs.htm


How about doctor control instead?

People want gun control but it's not guns that kill; it's the people who use them who kill, and the killers will get guns off the streets just like drugs, no matter what you do. How about the reality of accidental deaths? More than 100,000 people a year die at the hands of doctors, and accidental gun deaths are less than 2,000. With those statistics, maybe we should be banning doctors?                                                   
http://www.aikenstandard.com/0130talkback

"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

cody6.0

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Re: Ranger and Black Talon ammo?
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2008, 03:07:12 PM »
Only in America and in 2008 need one worry about legal issues after defending themselves or God forbid shooting someone who has broken into your home and it was you or him.

As for the basic toipc of Rangers and Black Talons the Ranger line pretty much follows what Winchester releases as home defense ammo. The Rangers are just plain jane traditional versions with no silver tips or Lubalox coatings. As for Black Talons after conducting my own tests it is in all of my handguns. They are over priced but oh well it's no different than my $500 Shoei GSX-R helmet. I have the Ranger SXT's that are 90% the same but are to modest I guess.

Then again at $40 a box I will take a few more attempts at halting the intruder before taking action.

2HOW

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Re: Ranger and Black Talon ammo?
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2008, 05:20:23 PM »
Here is some more info on ballistics........

Re: Law Enforcement/Military Cartridge Effectiveness Study
Conducted 1995 - 1996


In the recent past, performance tests were conducted to determine the ballistic effects of different weapons and ammunition on flesh and bone targets, living and dead, and to determine the efficacy of different types and designs of body armor in defeating the threats presented by these projectiles.

The following information was taken from the personal notes of an experienced law enforcement observer in the field of forensics from a large western law enforcement agency.

The final reports were proprietary to armor manufacturers who funded the research as well as being classified as proprietary/ confidential by certain government agencies that placed a gag order on distributing data from the report. The report itself can't be distributed, however, the individual mentioned above was under no such constraint to not discuss what he saw and wrote down in his personal notes.

It should be noted that on at least two other different occasions in the past, the U.S. Army has conducted similar tests on unarmored subjects. The first of these was a handgun test in conducted in 1904 that resulted in the adoption of the .45ACP cartridge as the military standard and the second was convened in June of 1928 and dubbed the “Pig Board” due to it's use of pigs as test subjects. The purpose of the Pig Board was to determine the most effective cartridge for use in military rifles against human targets. That exercise resulted in the identification of a .276 caliber (approximate 7mm) high velocity bullet as the optimum choice. That choice was not put into practice, although the M1 Garand was developed in a working model for it, because a high ranking general of the time (General Douglas MacArthur) insisted on using the already developed .30/06 cartridge; which was more powerful anyway. Thus the Army adopted the M1 Garand in .30/06 caliber, which was later changed to the .308 caliber. The .308 caliber approximated the results of the .276 in a larger diameter projectile. This choice was probably precipitated by the popular manufacture of commercial weapons in the .308 caliber.(1)

In the current modern test instance, tests were conducted on human cadavers, live pigs and ballistic gelatin, both unprotected and protected by modern body armor. Test weapon types were rifles, shotguns and pistols. There was about fourteen months of research conducted.

(Note: Cadaver research is common, as Coroners and Medical Examiners receive hundreds of unclaimed cadavers or donated ones that are unsuitable for the usual medical research. They are then used for other forms of research with Medical examiner and/or coroner approval. Cadavers are tested with respect, the faces and bodies covered, only the area tested is exposed. After use, the Coroner examines tissue damage to gage injury, wound channels, secondary projectiles, armor failure or internal injury from vest success with high energy projectile stops).

The research was conducted in phases:

Rifles, shotguns and then handweapons, in that order.
Cadavers with body armor.
Cadavers without body armor.
Live pigs with body armor.
Live pigs w/o body armor.
Testing confirmed that in most instances the lighter Hollow Point (HP) projectiles (.380, 9mm, .40 cal.) open prematurely or do not open at all, the HP cup filling with target medium, turning itself into lighter ball ammo, or the HP projectile takes a different path from the flight path upon entering the target medium, resulting in non lethal hits or lesser wounds than intended due to deflection of the projectile from the unstable HP cup reacting to hydrostatic pressure from impact with the target medium (veering off course, so to speak).<A href="http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html#2">(2)

Heavier Ball ammo (any round of 200gr weight or greater) such as .45ACP 230 gr., .44 Special 246 gr., .45 LC 255 gr., .38 Special 200 gr. LRN,<A href="http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html#3">(3) all followed the intended flight path, even upon hitting bone. These projectiles gave the best observed handgun performance in creating damage that would be consistent with producing incapacitation of a human target with the fewest possible shots fired. They also did not exit the cadaver torso as the energy was invariably shed in the target, leaving no apparent energy for over-penetration and exit<A href="http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html#4">(4). Exit wounds did occur with face shots, head shots and extremities, face shots causing imparting of secondary velocity to teeth and chunks of bone, creating secondary fragment projectiles.

In terminal ballistics, all HP's of the same approximate weight and approximate velocity are equal in performance. Velocities in handguns are essentially insufficient to provide predictable opening when necessary or desired in human targets. The most effective HP's in .45ACP are those that retain the original weight of 230 gr. as they will continue to function as well as ball ammo, whether they open or not.

Testing was also done on a comparison of handgun ammunition between hard cast lead, swaged lead and semi-jacketed soft point to FMJ. Testing was only done to examine the types of wounds produced, not for armor protection as none of those projectiles in handgun loads, including .44 Magnum and .454 Casull can penetrate level IIA or III body armor. Hard alloy lead (like linotype metal) performed somewhat like FMJ and bored straight through. To be exact, #2 Lyman chilled 230 gr. .45's were tested on cadavers and they duplicated FMJ results. Softer lead gave surprising results<A href="http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html#5">(5), in that it deformed on impact but pushed ahead through bone and flesh and shed its velocity and energy quicker, stopping 3 to 5 cm earlier than FMJ. In other words, it produced a MORE violent stopping effect than harder leads. This result also duplicates the Army findings from the 1904 tests. It is problematic for modern law enforcement use, however, as soft lead does not feed reliably in semi-automatic pistols. It's use is outstanding, however, in revolvers as there is no feed travel problem.

Further tests with handgun projectiles custom made of steel or brass drill rod or solid copper rod with a slight truncated cone shape and fired at magnum velocities penetrated level IIA vests and damaged and compromised the level III. These loadings were in .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum and .44 Magnum.

In defeating armor, the lighter, less than common 7.62x25 Tokarev in it's high velocity variant (Czech round for the vz52 at 1700fps) can penetrate earlier versions of body armor, but newer level IIA will stop it. In the unprotected body, it tends to penetrate on a straight line, as did the old .357 pointed ball, sold in the 50's through the 80's, but does less damage along it's path than the heavier bullets.

Tests indicated that longarm (rifle/shotgun) torso wounds on unarmored targets from modern cartridges are devastating except for the M193 5.56x45mm Ball and similar projectiles which required multiple hits to create lethal stop damage.

Using body armor, no existing body armor except IIA and III levels with ceramic inserts or laminate inserts will stop high-power rifle rounds such as 30-30 or 7.62x39mm Russian. As an example, level III was penetrated by a 30-30 loaded with a 150 gr. PBT (Pointed Boat Tail), while a 150 gr. Soft Point did not penetrate the vest. In either case the wearer would have been injured.

Ceramic and laminate inserts will stop even 30-06 Armor Piercing (AP) projectiles. Curiously, German 7.92mm AP Ball has the greatest range of effective penetration potential of all the standard military calibers. Probably due to the higher sectional density of the heavy 198 gr. 7.92mm bullet.

Under 50-75 yds most AP is no more effective than regular rounds as it has not developed critical velocity/energy for penetration. From 125 out to 250 yards, penetration is almost guaranteed. This occurs as the high velocity AP projectile is still gaining speed<A href="http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html#6">(6) and stability out to 125 yards or more.

There are standard hunting rifle cartridges capable of level IIA and III penetration, although it requires a little handloading, or at least replacement of the FMJ with a different type bullet of the same weight. Solid copper projectiles or projectiles turned from brass drill rod will penetrate the level IIA and III with ceramic inserts. These rounds do not break up like FMJ. Projectile weight must be 165 gr. or over. Velocities must be the same as standard high velocity rifle.

Experimentation was conducted with .30-06 AP projectiles pulled from the original cartridges and reloaded in .300 Winchester Magnum (Win Mag) cartridges. They penetrated level IIA and III like butter. It seems the high velocities unachievable in a military gas-operated gun, but simple in a .300 Win Mag bolt gun, makes those old AP penetrators incredibly efficient. They penetrated mediums and combinations of mediums that would have never been considered possible with .30-06 or its sister military calibers in their standard loadings.

It should be noted that if a wearer is protected from certain death wearing high protection armor, the wearer may not escape injury. It has been shown that with solid perpendicular hits the wearer may suffer some form of cardiac impairment form the impact, almost guaranteed separation of the sternum from the rib cage, broken ribs, etc.

But, if a large caliber magnum rifle is used - such as .338, .300, .375 in Win Mag calibers (they were the most consistent) and loaded with SOLID Spitzer Boat Tails, no body armor would stop it. Spitzer Boat tails are THE projectile. They work better than anything else in the AP mode.

It should also be noted that the U.S. Military has developed new armor piercing rounds in .50 BMG and 7.62x51mm that will defeat any of these body armors with extreme ease. They are called <A href="http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/winchester/index.html">“Sabot Light Armor Penetrating” or SLAP cartridges. These consist of a relatively sharp pointed tungsten carbide “dart” of a smaller diameter than the weapon's bore encased in a plastic sabot to bring it up to caliber. The projectile is fired at very high velocities and it sheds the sabot on the way to the target. As an example, the .50 BMG SLAP round uses a .415 gr. projectile fired at a speed of 4000 fps (78 ft. from muzzle). It will penetrate approximately .750 ( ¾) inches of high-hardness steel armor at a range of 1500 yards.

Although these tests appear conclusive, the scientific acceptance is tainted by the perceived need for secrecy. This perceived need was driven by two factors, one is a potential profit motive of ballistic vest manufacturer(s) co-sponsoring the tests, while the second is the perceived negative political atmosphere in which such tests may be received by certain anti-weapon activist groups.

It would certainly be important to military and law enforcement agencies if these tests could be replicated in an acceptable enough political atmosphere to make public release of the information acceptable. This office, therefore, recommends such a study be undertaken by the appropriate military agency.

AN ARMED SOCIETY IS A POLITE SOCIETY

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Re: Ranger and Black Talon ammo?
« Reply #25 on: Today at 01:23:57 AM »

Majer

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Re: Ranger and Black Talon ammo?
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2008, 06:33:49 PM »
The main reason for carrying factory ammo in a self defense gun is so your lawyers can duplicate the shooting results with ammo from the same lot. different powders may produce the same terminal effect BUT the powder residue can and usually will be different. Some powders have a bigger muzzle flash some none at all, some will leave residue 12 inches from the muzzle of the firearm others will send a trail 10 feet. The difference could mean a claim of the wound being at contact distance or from across the room. Now if you said the person you shot was across the room but the forensic guys claim it was at contact distance who will the prosecutors believe? Now they ask you What brand of ammo were you using, You claim that you had some reloads in the gun. Were the reloads loaded with Red Dot, 2400, Win 231 etc etc...different loads but all the same  velocity/terminal effect but way different burning rates. Massad Ayoob wrote about this happening to a person who ended up in jail for murder after his wife committed suicide with a pistol and ammo that he supplied to her for self defense. I have always been a believer in carrying the best ammo I can afford to protect myself and my Family. I also write the date that I loaded that lot of ammo in my pistol and will then rotate that ammo every 2 to 3 month and replace it with fresh ammo from the same lot. When all the ammo has been rotated through the firearm I set it aside for practice (Practice what you play as an instructor told me ) That way I know what the firearm will do with THAT ammo. Just my humble opinion... ;D
"If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Jeff Cooper
Pericles--"Freedom is only for those who have the guts to defend it".

The problem with society today is that not enough of us drink wine from our enemies skulls”.

It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 3 for proper trigger squeeze.

Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars!!!
-Sheriff Jim Wilson
"When tyranny becomes law rebellion becomes duty" Thomas Jefferson
Es gibt keine Notwendigkeit zu befürchten, Underdog hier ist.
Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage. Where are we now??????

PegLeg45

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Re: Ranger and Black Talon ammo?
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2008, 07:21:24 PM »
The main reason for carrying factory ammo in a self defense gun is so your lawyers can duplicate the shooting results with ammo from the same lot. different powders may produce the same terminal effect BUT the powder residue can and usually will be different. Some powders have a bigger muzzle flash some none at all, some will leave residue 12 inches from the muzzle of the firearm others will send a trail 10 feet. The difference could mean a claim of the wound being at contact distance or from across the room. Now if you said the person you shot was across the room but the forensic guys claim it was at contact distance who will the prosecutors believe? Now they ask you What brand of ammo were you using, You claim that you had some reloads in the gun. Were the reloads loaded with Red Dot, 2400, Win 231 etc etc...different loads but all the same  velocity/terminal effect but way different burning rates. Massad Ayoob wrote about this happening to a person who ended up in jail for murder after his wife committed suicide with a pistol and ammo that he supplied to her for self defense. I have always been a believer in carrying the best ammo I can afford to protect myself and my Family. I also write the date that I loaded that lot of ammo in my pistol and will then rotate that ammo every 2 to 3 month and replace it with fresh ammo from the same lot. When all the ammo has been rotated through the firearm I set it aside for practice (Practice what you play as an instructor told me ) That way I know what the firearm will do with THAT ammo. Just my humble opinion... ;D

+100
Very good info Majer, thanks.
Also very interesting reading from 2HOW...it's been a long time since I read anything of that nature.
"I expect perdition, I always have. I keep this building at my back, and several guns handy, in case perdition arrives in a form that's susceptible to bullets. I expect it will come in the disease form, though. I'm susceptible to diseases, and you can't shoot a damned disease." ~ Judge Roy Bean, Streets of Laredo

For the Patriots of this country, the Constitution is second only to the Bible for most. For those who love this country, but do not share my personal beliefs, it is their Bible. To them nothing comes before the Constitution of these United States of America. For this we are all labeled potential terrorists. ~ Dean Garrison

"When it comes to the enemy, just because they ain't pullin' a trigger, doesn't mean they ain't totin' ammo for those that are."~PegLeg

wisconsin

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Re: Ranger and Black Talon ammo?
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2008, 08:43:18 PM »
Since this thread has started to drift a little. I started to ask some of my fellow range members for some clarification on Ranger and the Black Talon ammo. You guys are right about the Black Talon ammo. But what I keep hearing on other forums is that the Range ammo was some of the best stuff around. But as I said all I could find at Midway USA or Sportsmans Warehouse was the Winchester Supreme SXT. But nothing that said Winchester Ranger on the box. Well I was directed to Tactical Defense Solutions (www.tds-us.com) where they go on to explain that the Ranger ammo is made for LEO's and not for the civilian market. This not the law, only a Winchester choice to sell . The T designation next to the stock number is for LEO's which is Talon but not Black Talon and they sell it for $25 per 50 rds. for 9mm RA9T (Talon) 147 grn sxt. If there is a difference between Winchester Ranger ammo and the Sportsmans Wharehouse Winchester Supreme ammo I'm not sure. TDS say they are the similar but the Ranger or LEO ammo is the good stuff. Take a look at thier website and you be the judge. I was just having a problem understanding the diff between Win Supreme, Win Ranger ammo.
" I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."   John Wayne

cody6.0

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Re: Ranger and Black Talon ammo?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2008, 07:33:31 AM »
Like I said in my other post the Ranger line follows the regular Winchester line but without the fancy colors and coatings. The Silvertip, Supreme and Black Talon all have a Ranger counterpart that is usually cheaper also. Although the Ranger series has two different weights in the BlackTalon/SXT in most calibers.

wisconsin

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Re: Ranger and Black Talon ammo?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2008, 07:29:30 PM »
Like I said in my other post the Ranger line follows the regular Winchester line but without the fancy colors and coatings. The Silvertip, Supreme and Black Talon all have a Ranger counterpart that is usually cheaper also. Although the Ranger series has two different weights in the BlackTalon/SXT in most calibers.
Sorry I should of payed more attention to your post. But as this thread started to drift. I started to quickly go through the responses too see if an answer was given to my question. Thanks
" I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."   John Wayne

 

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