.458 SOCOM

[alfsauve]

<I didn't know if this belong under Tactical Rifles or AR so by default it goes under the Cafe>

So Michael has been tantalizing us with his Bishop .458 SOCOM and I got intrigued.  We don't seem to have a single thread dedicated to this caliber, so I thought I'd start one.

The suggestions from other forums is that the best use of this cartridge is in an AR platform.   It works on an AR-15 lower and uses AR mags.   Not a lot of advantage in a bolt action, some tend to think. 

My b-day's coming up (hint-hint) so I was thinking this might be a nice present.  But then I got to looking at ammo. $1.60/round for the cheapest I could find.  Wow.  And the Bishop bolt action starts at $1,900.

But I reload AND Optics Planet sells an Radical AR upper with BCG for $480. 

Wonder if they'd be any market for a lever action?     But then why not stay with 45/70 for <$1.25/round?

Anybody else toy with the idea of this round?

[les snyder]

if I remember correctly, Michael was once spotted in possession of a 14" Thompson Center Contender in 45-70.... it may have done permanent damage   

[Big Frank]

I thought about the .458 SOCOM years ago, but ammo was nearly impossible to find then, and super expensive when I did find it online. The big selling point besides chucking big fat hunks of lead, is that it's supposed to work with no modifications to standard 5.56 magazines. It's fat enough to fill the inside width of the mag, at least enough for the mag lips to hold a round in place. A 90 round .223 snail-drum mag is supposed to hold 33 rounds of .458 IIRC. There's no mag I know of for the 450 Bushmaster that can hold anywhere near that many rounds. Since the 450 cartridge is skinnier than the .458, mags for it need to be modified. Feed lips bent inward would be my guess.

450 Bushmaster ammo is made by some of the big brands, like Remington, Winchester and Hornady, plus other brands, and can be found for $1.50 per round at Midway, and $1.48 for some on sale now. Technically speaking the .458 may be the better round, but the ammo is $2.15-$3.40 per round at Midway, in brands I've never seen in any store, except for maybe Buffalo Bore and I'm not sure I've seen it either. I know I can get Remington, Winchester and Hornady ammo at any gun store, and they're a lot more likely to stock 450 Bushmaster than .458 SOCOM. There's at least one suppressor made specifically for use with both rounds, so neither has the advantage there. I think I would get an AR chambered for the cheaper and more plentiful 450 Bushmaster ammo. And I don't get a commission from the round's designer.

P.S. I forgot to mention that 450 Bushmaster is legal to deer hunt with some places, like the "shotgun zone" of lower Michigan, and some other states where bottleneck calibers like .458 SOCOM aren't allowed.

[alfsauve]

And is the 1/22 twist that Bishop uses better than the 1/14 twist everybody else uses?

I doubt if I'll ever hunt in S. Michigan so no worries.

Starline has the brass.

I've put the Lee dies on my birthday wish list.   I think I'm getting sucked in.

[alfsauve]

if I remember correctly, Michael was once spotted in possession of a 14" Thompson Center Contender in 45-70.... it may have done permanent damage   

My brother-in-law had one.  45/70 in a 14"T/C.  He was intending to go hog hunting in FL with it.   Said it didn't shoot worth a darn.  I was down at his place shortly afterwards and was able to put 5 rounds in an 8" bull at 25yds.  Two things I learned.  Don't embarrass your bigger, older bad-ass b-i-l.  And that I could shoot heavy rounds quite well thank you.

[Sponsor]

[Big Frank]

And is the 1/22 twist that Bishop uses better than the 1/14 twist everybody else uses?

I doubt if I'll ever hunt in S. Michigan so no worries.

Starline has the brass.

I've put the Lee dies on my birthday wish list.   I think I'm getting sucked in.

From what I read it's not just southern Michigan with that law. They said it was here plus a few whole states, but if you don't want to hunt in any of them, it's a moot point. There are calculations that can be made to tell you what rifling twist would most likely be the best for a given bullet and velocity. It must be online somewhere. It mostly depends on the weight, but also other aspects of the bullet. A twist rate that works great for 200 or 220 grain bullets may not work well with 500 or 600 grain bullets. You almost have to pick your ammo first to decide what twist rate you need on the gun you buy for it.

[alfsauve]

From what I read it's not just southern Michigan with that law. They said it was here plus a few whole states, but if you don't want to hunt in any of them, it's a moot point.
<snip>
You almost have to pick your ammo first to decide what twist rate you need on the gun you buy for it.

I think parts of SC are shotgun only, but I don't know if they have an exemption for straight wall cartridges.   As you said, only matters if you're going to hunt there.

Bishop appears to be the only one make 1/22 twist.  Maybe if I actually took the time to listen to Michael's videos I'd find out.  But I have trouble sitting still for videos.

[alfsauve]

And what's about the different manufactures of uppers?

Radical okay?  They're the cheapest least expensive.
CMMG
RRA?
Wilson?
Tromix?
Others?

Maybe I should piece this out myself. 

[Big Frank]

The CMMG .458 SOCOM MkW ANVIL is a mid-size platform like their 7.62x39mm Mk47 Mutant. The bolt and the front of the bolt carrier are as wide as on an AR-10, so there's a lot more steel between the rim of the case and the bolt lugs. It's a lot less likely to break, and .458 ARs do break sometimes. It has an adjustable gas block and comes with one 10 round mag. If anyone else is making a similar mid-size upper and lower I haven't seen it yet.

[alfsauve]

You people are not helping one way or another.   I have no good reason to get into .458S..... but still....

I've already downloaded all the reloading data I could find.

Just realized that Bishop Ammo also sells AR based uppers as well as the Bolt Action Scout.  And that Dianne and I have a bond outside of guns.

I think this is going to happen, it's just a matter of AR vs Bolt.   Rear charging vs Side.  Economy vs Elite.