I was sending a friend a digest of the MB Cannon Safe posts on his blog and boiled down those comments I thought had useful info. I am NOT posting it to bash Cannon. I actually don't really care about the customer service aspect. I wanted to capture for my friend the salient points on safe technology. Of course I can't attest to the validity of all the points made. But it would be a good start for someone looking into a safe.
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Before you by a new "safe" you should do some research on the difference between a "Safe" and a "RSC."
Most gun safes are UL rated as "RSC" or "Residential Security Containers."
That's a UL rating that means they are rated to resist an attack by simple hand tools for only five minutes. We're talking hammers and screwdrivers here.
RSC's are generally thin metal with dry added inside as an attept to add some fire resistence.
Real safes, like honest to God burgerly safes for commercial use, are rated by construction methods, as in a "B Rate" safe or are rated for tool resistence time. A "TL 15" rated safe, for instance, is rated to withstand attack for 15 minutes.
The problem with buying a RSC is you aren't really getting the protection you think you are getting. The high end RSC's don't offer much more protection then the cheap RSC's and often the high end RSC's are almost as expensive as a REAL TL 15 or B rate safe.
The best value in a TL 15 or B rate is in a used safe. It does take more work to find one though.
Talk to a safe technician and so some research before buying a new safe.
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I purchased a Liberty safe from Cabela's last year, and had the EXACT same problem you did: the S&G lock failed, and I couldn't get into my safe. Come to find out, S&G had a certain run of electronic locks manufactured with parts not to spec, causing some of those locks to fail. When I called Liberty, the support was EXCELLENT, and they sent out a locksmith to deal with the problem. Initially they thought they could just have the locksmith pick the lock, but it didn't work, and neither Liberty or the smith received support from S&G (they don't want people knowing whether their locks can be picked) so the smith had to drill the lock. It was a relatively long and painful ordeal, requiring multiple visits from the smith, but in the end Liberty made good. ALL of the parts and labor were covered by Liberty; I didn't pay a dime. Liberty not only paid the smith for his time and replaced the lock with a new S&G electronic lock, they also sent new hard plates, fireproofing, even touch up paint to fix the damage done to the safe to get into it.
I thought it was worthwhile to detail my story to note a few things in contrast to your incident:
1. Liberty covered everything, no questions, and even picked up the extra cost of drilling the lock, an expense they didn't initially believe they would need to pay. I don't care what Cannon says to you now, their position on the issue stinks; not much of a lifetime warranty, and one would think they'd want to stand behind their product despite what the warranty says.
2. I was NEVER treated with anything but the utmost respect by the people on the phone at Liberty, even when my "Irish was up" over the whole situation and I was giving them grief. As others here have said, whoever you spoke to at Cannon shouldn't have a job today. A CSR's job is to deal with people when they're unhappy about a product; if that's a problem for the individual in question, the said person should find another line of work.
3. While it was a real pain in the a** that the smith had to drill the lock, in a way I was actually happy that he couldn't pick it; it speaks to the security and durability of the lock. The smith in question has a reputation in the area for being really good; I watched what he did, helped him read the directions, and even viewed what he was doing through his tools, and he still couldn't get it open. Even when he drilled it, he had to drill in more than one place to get the bolt free. If you were able to open the lock you have with a solder iron and some spare wire, that to me doesn't say much about the security of the lock.
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I used to be a Cannon Safe dealer. We dropped the entire line because of horrible screw ups from the sales dept, customer service dept, and billing dept!
Management is always polite but could not care a less about customer service.
After all these are CHINESE made safes! Only finish work is done in the USA. Then they try to sell it at a premium price "Made in the USA" product...which its not! You can find similar products. You can our selection of gun safes from a multiple manufactures at
www.ValueSafes.com **********************************************************************
This is typical of the quality of "gun safes". There is a reason that Cannon (and Ft Knox) are very evasive about what exactly is UL listed about their "UL Listed" safes. Using UL listed drywall in their safes for fire protection doesn't make it a UL listed safe.
Please go talk to someone who makes or sells actual UL rated burglary with fire protection safes. Like Amsec or Meilink.
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Michael: Don't put too much faith in a S&G lock because I had one fail on a Fort Knox safe. Hired a locksmith and while we were on the phone to Utah he drilled it.....repeatedly. Took about an hour and a half and four different tries if I remember correctly. I paid for the locksmith, but Fort Knox stood up for the box. That's right I got a new one in exchange for the old one, which I shipped back freight collect.
It all came down to the S&G lock failing.
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Michael I'm a member of SAVTA (safe and vault technicians association)Michael you need to stick with guns. That is not the Lock but the keypad (like a keyboard). Actually LP Locks are a very high security European made lock with final assembly in Torrance CA. The S&G that you are so praising is made in China. The inventor of the LP lock is the same guy who worked for S&G for decades and later started LaGard Locks one of the best locks ever made. Unfortunately it was purchased by Kaba Mas (who no longer deals in Gun Safes as they said the end user was ignorant) and Kaba Mas has ceased production. Reading all the posts this is no big deal to fix. Call a local locksmith ask him if he has Type 1 Electronic Lock experience and he will be able to fix it right quick and put the new LP Lock on. As far as Mechanical your posters don't know there 1911 from a Sig 229 when it comes to locks. I have electronic locks that are used daily that are approaching 15 years of service with ZERO problems. The same cannot be said for Mechanical Locks. There is one fact in this business ALL Mechanical Locks will have problems sooner or later, That is how I make my money servicing safes with Mechanical Locks.
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Check out these safes...
I haven't been able to buy a safe yet, but I learned a LOT about safes from reading their site.
http://www.sturdysafe.com/ ******************************************************************************
When I was shopping for a gunsafe and saw that these fire safes had plastic digital keypads to get into the safe the first thing I asked the store clerk was how do you get into the safe when the fire destroys the keypad. When he couldn't answer the question I bought the safe with the metal combination dial.
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If I may speak in my own defense, I've babied the lock since I got the safe 7 years ago. It IS flimsy, far too flimsy for an object that price point (it's a big safe).
One immediate problem was that the lock ATE 9-V batteries, which should not be the case for a low-pull circuit. I have had to keep a supply on hand just to get the safe open. I have been VERY careful in changing out batteries because of the cheesy nature of the circuit board. I have at least a passing experience with electronics (N2AWX and an occasional robot builder), and I know cheese when I see it.
I did not start soldering on the circuit board because I assumed, incorrectly, that Cannon would repair their product either under warranty or for money. Soldering circuit boards this small always runs the risk of toasting components on the board, even with heat sinks.
I said from the beginning that I was willing to pay all shipping and hourly repair charges if they were not covered under warranty, but I got my head snapped off for even suggesting it.
I did not buy the safe at a discount or as a you-build-it kit. I bought it to be — as the Cannon website says — a lifetime security product. I figured it would be my main safe forever.
All that aside, there is no excuse for the way I was treated, especially considering I asked for no special treatment and offered up front to pay all charges. I was treated first with contempt, essentially blown off; then I was threatened. ANY company that threatens a customer — that is, a person who spent a large sum of money with their company — deserves to reap the whirlwind.
Believe me, I'm busy enough that I can do without all this crap, but the bottom line is that, hey, I can't get to my guns, my financial records, my important business papers, etc. T&E projects that I had scheduled for earlier this week did not get done; unless I can resolder the circuit board today, they won't get done until after SHOT. In short, I have incurred a real loss of work product.
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I've had an Amsec ESL20 electronic lock for 7 years. Last year I changed the two energizer 9V batteries that power it. Not because I had to, but I had two spares in hand.
Safe techs have told me that you need to get a mechanical lock serviced every year, maybe every other year if you don't open and close it a few times a day like a business does. Which means a trip charge from a safe tech, several hours of your day, etc. The tech said there wasn't really any reason to service the electronic lock I have.
Everything made by man can break, don't assume a mechanical lock will be more reliable. If you have a poorly made electronic lock an S&G mechanical lock will be, but S&G or Amsec electronic locks are pretty darn reliable.
And if you need to have the safe drilled open, keep track of how long it take the tech to do it. You'll likely be surprised at how little security Cannon or Ft Knox offers to a skilled attacker.
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For those of you thinking mechanical locks are a better choice, especially in a fire situation, think again.
Many modern mechanical locks use PLASTIC disks inside to reduce the amount of noise made as you turn the dial (so someone listening cannot manipulate the lock). Those disks eventually crack and need replacing (hopefully you catch it misbehaving and fix it before it fails and the safe has to be drilled). When there is a fire, those disks melt, and the safe HAS to be drilled.
A top shelf electronic lock is going to be more reliable and easier to use. Meaning you will use it more, and not just leave it unlocked for ease of access. Just buy a good one. The best are made by Kaba-Mas (the X-09), and cost around $1000 - for just the lock.
Security is not cheap.
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We have a 6-year-old Liberty brand gun safe, and its Sargent and Greenleaf (the top brand) electronic keypad lock recently failed. Thankfully, it failed in the “open” condition so we had access to our valuables, and didn’t need to have the safe professionally drilled open. The locksmith said that these locks usually fail locked, and I can’t imagine finding this out after a crisis, and being left without most of our guns. Even the idea of being unable to get our passports onthe morning of an international trip is unthinkable.
It turns out that the handy electronic keypad locks just aren’t terribly reliable. While our safe has a lifetime guarantee, the keypad and lock have only a 5-year guarantee. The locksmith said that he considers them unreliable.
I should also note that they are not even designed to be serviced. The inner motorized lock had failed, but the keypad had to be destroyed to remove the lock.
Fortunately, the solution was fast, easy, and not too expensive. For less than $200, including the parts, service call and labor, the locksmith came the same day the lock failed, and replaced the failed electronic lock with a traditional mechanical dial lock that should last as long as the safe. The locksmith even had the parts on his truck (apparently, these failures are rather common), and spent no more than an hour on site.
I advise anyone who made the mistake of getting an electronic lock to make the easy switch to a reliable mechanical lock for their gun safe. You will give up speed and convenience, but you will gain security and reliability.
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I swear by Secure Container Inc. which makes Spartan safes. They built two semi-custom safes for a close friend and also built/installed a vault door in his basement gun room and the workmanship was absolutely top shelf. Not a household name by any means but his work is good enough for the NRC (he built/installed numerous storage unit/safes for the security detail at a nearby nuclear facility) and in a pinch a can go over and yell at Dave in person if you have a problem.
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I don't know if this is relevant but here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99Q3aDy-BUcAnd this guy has an awsome post on safe selection:
http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2008/10/safe-storage-of-firearms.html ************************************************************************
The terms of the warranty are very important to understand. What is covered? How much will it cost me? And how long is it covered?
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