I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.

[Hazcat]

English nuts make good beer? Yer scarin' me!

EEEEWWWWWW!!!!!!

[alfsauve]

Having kicked in a few door's myself ( USMC, B/W, GOVT.) I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.

As others have said, it's a sport.   I have a problem with the High Power matches and their leather shooting jackets, myself.  Talk about not relevant to the real world.

Anyway,  this past weekend I got to play with a Meggit video training simulator.   (Sandy Springs Police department'.)   The problem with practically every scenario is it only afforded two options.   Stand there and shoot  OR stand there and don't shoot.   In most of them some form of movement would have been preferable.    You got me to thinking that this is dangerous training for our LEOs as it doesn't encourage alternatives which might end with less lethal consequences.    The choice isn't always JUST shoot/noshoot, but that's what some of these training scenarios are drilling into the LEOs.   

As a homeowner, I don't have to aggressively attack the situation.  I can retreat and defend.  And you're right, in most cases I might encounter, time is my friend not my task master.

 

[tombogan03884]

A thing to remember Alf is that it is a "Shooting simulator" again, the focus is on shoot or no shoot judgement which requires the assumption that things like verbal deescalation have failed. Also, space limitations mean that movement options are going to be limited even if they are offered.
Even Force on force training with simunitions will have certain weaknesses in things like recoil management, and the fact that no matter how realistic the training may be there is no way to simulate the knowledge that the other guy is using live ammo and trying to kill YOU.
It boils down to the fact that you can not remove the line that exists between "trained" and "experienced".
One is what you SHOULD do, and what you WANT to happen, and what you actually did and what really happened. Even the best trained Super Ninja will get kicked in the nuts by Murphy 

[fullautovalmet76]

Having kicked in a few door's myself ( USMC, B/W, GOVT.) I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.
They are letting a stop watch force them into making really bad decisions.
I watch the fastest local hotshots sticking their hands through simulated window's to shoot a bad guy.
I watch the hotshots use cover as a rest, not as cover.
Cutting the pie has an entirely different meaning in competition shooting.
The act of unloading your firearm the split second you are done with a gun fight is FREAKING NUTS.
I am still scanning and assessing and the "R.O" thinks I'm lost and I need help...........


As a semi famous ugly guy once said-

"Anytime you go into a situation where you know exactly what is going to happen and you tailor your gear and technique to that situation (plate rack, staged defensive scenario) you set yourself to gaming.
When you are gaming, you are playing by the rules.  In a real gun fight, there are no rules.

Training is training and dogshit is dogshit.
I'll take the training. You can have the dogshit.

Have a nice day,

BloodFarts
USMC

Got DQ'd at a match recently for unsafe gun handling, huh?  I think the folks at BrianEnos.com might really find your comments enlightening. Go over there and post this and come back tell us how you were received.....

I happen to know a few former door kickers (Dave Harrington comes immediately to mind) who do think shooting competitions is beneficial to their overall skill set. USPSA focuses on practical shooting, not tactical stuff. IDPA attempts to be more of a self defense type shooting game, but it too is a game. I think both types can help but I tend to favor USPSA because I get to shoot more and it's a faster game. If I want to practice for "tactical stuff" I'll modify some of my drills at home to suit.

The one thing I have noticed about LEO/Military who do not do well at these matches is a lack of practice and/or think they have some sort superiority over the others because of their uniform (fortunately this set is very rare).

[tombogan03884]

Any time spent practicing sight picture, sight alignment and trigger control is not wasted, even dry fire drills.
I do high volume long run production machining and one thing I have learned is that your hands are faster than your brain.
The less you have to think through your actions, the more automatic they become, the faster you will perform.
Some people refer to this as muscle memory, I prefer to put it into manufacturing terms and think of it as a "canned cycle" in your brain.

[Sponsor]

[m25operator]

I shot IPSC for a long time, in the beginning it was in it's infancy, and we played hard core practical games, since it evolved, it became so much less than practical,, than a fast and difficult game. I totally agree, that modern stages allow shooting from unprotected positions, 20 targets at a time, and no deductions for not using cover, or your head for that matter, it did not start out that way, but now is the letter of the law ( so to speak ), sad, I have said before, just call the sport ( Gun Racing ) and we would all be cool, don;t call it practical shooting, but they USPSA Usurped it, and it is what it is, the competitors want it and they got it, just a name. IDPA is better, but not great, I have not shot that match yet. I do keep an eye on modern competitions, and most shooters, don't want, slow deliberate, situations, with thought, taking a part, and well, our local club does do these type of matches, popular with 20 -30 peeps, and that is good. No Gaming, just understanding the stage, and understanding the SITREP, and applying your skill, plus what We call the ( do right rules ) means the RO can call you down for gaming, and there is no real Rule book, RO decides, if your trying to game or be tactical, Practical, you can be called down for it, and lose points. A Practical or tactical approach will always get you further, rather than a straight up approach at the targets, with no cover.zz

Training is more deliberate, practice is what comes after, and competition is another, bad comp is contradictory to good training, or good practice, if you have the right attitude, you can compete within your local matches, and just use your training, and expect to lose, but gain skill, if you apply what you have learned, and not give in to winning. Just get good trigger time and back out.

Welcome newbee, post again.

[bbbean]

Having kicked in a few door's myself ( USMC, B/W, GOVT.) I have never seen anything as dangerous as USPSA, IPSC, etc.
...
Training is training and dogshit is dogshit.
I'll take the training. You can have the dogshit.

Interesting. I've never been around safer gun handlers than USPSA. They sure are a lot safer than the average plinker or hunter I see!

Oh. That's not what you mean?

It is interesting to note that the majority of the top USPSA shooters work as trainers for military, law enforcement, and private security firms, and a substantial number of them are active duty military or law enforcement. Apparently they find something of value in teh experience.

[tombogan03884]

 Reading what M 25 and BBBean posted, I think we can come up with a good rule of thumb, Good training makes for crappy sport,while an entertaining sport makes for crappy training  
I will point out that some of the Clanton gang  may have been real safe gun handlers, but they still got their azzes shot off by the Earps.  

[bloodfarts]

Good input guys.
I will give credit where credit is due.
I have seen very safe gun handling skills at the ipsc/uspsa events.
That is the only reason I haven’t gone nuts yet.

What I am saying is the act of unloading your firearm the second you are done shooting is insane. (Really insane.)
What do you think is going to happen if these guys get into a real unrehearsed shooting scenario? Yep, they'll shoot twice and just freeze.

Double tap? This is not 1986.
In Federal court, a double tap could insinuate the second shot was not a well aimed shot. (Think about that for a second. Scary, hua?)  How can you go into an active shooter situation thinking in advance " I have to shoot everything two times."


Competition shooting is a game. Don’t get mad at me. It's still way cooler than Bowling.

I don’t hate anyone. All gun owners that practice are my friends.
(Group hug)
   


You never stick your firearm through a window.

You never stand still during or after you finish shooting.

You never shoot unless you have covered (almost never)

And don’t kiss your friends Mom.


Peace and Love-
Farts

(Full auto-   No, I wasn’t DQ’ed, Mr. negative. When did your wife leave?)
bbbean- If you can just tell me where you got your statistic for your below comment?  "The majority of the top USPSA shooters work as trainers for military, law enforcement, and private security firms.  I am in the industry you talk about; we talk about the dangers of fun training all the time." Again USPSA is a sport. That is all I am saying.........
I love you all.

[alfsauve]

Double tap? <snip>  How can you go into an active shooter situation thinking in advance " I have to shoot everything two times."

One thing at our league we sometimes do various round counts.  We've done 10+ targets with 1 round each - reload 1 round each.   Also 1 round every other target, reload, 1 round each remaining target.....that type of thing.   Makes you think.   When we have time for a 4th stage it's almost always a Bill Drill.  Sometimes with one target, sometimes 3.  Basically it's "empty your gun - reload - empty your gun"    Granted they are all predetermined, but the idea is to get away from 2+2+2+2........