Terrorist Attack at Church?

[alfsauve]

I am exploring the "permission" thing, however, I'm not related to any of the management and I'm "just" an employee.  I am not a member of the congregation.

I need to broach this quickly due to the immediate potential threat, but I need to be careful that any request I make isn't turned down immediately for the liability issue.

Am a little blurry eyed this morning, having spent some time reading GA code last night. 

[1stCivDiv]

If you are interested in a program to refer church leadership to, here is a link from my county in TN:

http://www.bradleysheriff.com/content/view/29/56/

Scroll to the bottom of the page to the Special Deputy Church Protection Program.  I am attending a church in an adjacent county currently but my former church had one full-time staff member and one of our retirees, with an LEO background, take the certification.  There were also several other church members that are HCP carriers that were encouraged to carry.  My only problem with the program is that like everyone that takes the responsibility to carry, they should have much more training than what it takes to pass a typical "qualification" test.

Who is standing behind you right now???

[Woody]

 The ones you should be watching for is the BATF.

[fightingquaker13]

Alf
You are getting amateur advice from the peanut gallery (its what we do ). My serious advice is to have your priest pick up the phone and call the local PD chief (not Deputy Fife) and explain the situation and ask what you and others can legaly do. He's the one who will be making the call as to prosecute or not if things go pear shaped so best just get it out in the open before anything gets weird.
FQ13

[tombogan03884]

Alf
You are getting amateur advice from the peanut gallery (its what we do ). My serious advice is to have your priest pick up the phone and call the local PD chief (not Deputy Fife) and explain the situation and ask what you and others can legaly do. He's the one who will be making the call as to prosecute or not if things go pear shaped so best just get it out in the open before anything gets weird.
FQ13

Lawyer, not Police chief.

[Sponsor]

[cjwise5]

So I followed up with my pastor at church on this.  I told him that I would like to meet and discuss some security concerns with him.  He was very willing to meet and is excited to hear what I have to say.  I'll update this thread after meeting with him, and let you all know what happens.

I plan on pointing out that the church has very little exterior lighting around entrances and no security cameras of any kind.  I will also mention that none of the staff has been trained in threat recognition, not to mention dealing with bad guys through verbal means or hands on methods.  I would venture to guess that they don't really know the laws of use of force in these situations or what they are legally allowed to do and say.

Any other help and advice as I prepare a proposal would be appreciated.

[fightingquaker13]

So I followed up with my pastor at church on this.  I told him that I would like to meet and discuss some security concerns with him.  He was very willing to meet and is excited to hear what I have to say.  I'll update this thread after meeting with him, and let you all know what happens.

I plan on pointing out that the church has very little exterior lighting around entrances and no security cameras of any kind.  I will also mention that none of the staff has been trained in threat recognition, not to mention dealing with bad guys through verbal means or hands on methods.  I would venture to guess that they don't really know the laws of use of force in these situations or what they are legally allowed to do and say.

Any other help and advice as I prepare a proposal would be appreciated.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Its about training, and not just for worst case stuff either. It's far more likey you'll be dealing with some crazy wino. It's about detecting a threat and de-escalating it before guns even become an issue. Given that this is a church you will (or should be anyway) welcoming to that crazy wino. Welcoming does not mean stupid however, and having security trained to deal with escalating levels of threats is like money well spent for a prosperous chuch. If evey member of that 3,000 strong congregation put an extra $5 in the plate to train a voluteer security team you would have $15k which would certainley get Pincus or any other pro's undivided attention.
FQ13 

[Rob Pincus]

SHOT Distracted me from jumping in earlier.  Here are a few thoughts:

-Churches are targets for violence, we know this. Most people there are perceived as being perfect targets at peace and unarmed.
-most attacks against churches in recent times come from congregation members, former congregation members or member's families.
-Several churches have professional security, of course, they are larger ones, often with "celebrity" preachers.
-Many Churches have volunteer "security ministries" that provide security services (or a semblance thereof).

I do church specific security training from time to time, item # 2 is the hardest part for most serious non-professionals to deal with. Keep it in mind, when you form a security plan, especially if it involves firearms. The most likely person you will need to shoot is someone who looks like you. Think about Roeder. His is a home grown religious terrorist who shot a member of the congregation during services (his trial just started this week and he's in the news again). If there had been professional armed security on site, those guys would've needed to act without hesitation.

As FQ just said, training is the key for all of the scenarios.

(for the record, I prefer to do such training for the volunteer groups on the cheap or as a donation while I am in town doing another, profitable, course).

-RJP

[LittleRed]

I attend a "megachurch" of about 5-6,000, and we have off-duty, uniformed LEOs (usually 2-3 in uniform). We also have some plain clothes off-duty, and retired LEOs as well. I would think that any church that size would. That doesn't include any CCW holders that may be carrying since it is legal where I live. Explosives are another issue altogether, but amid the chaos of someone walking in shooting, my biggest concern would be of people not knowing who is who. I think if I went after the shooter, there would be a very good chance of someone thinking I am the bad guy. End of life.

I think I would certainly take a back seat to the uniformed LEOs, and only draw my firearm if the shooter were coming at me or my family, or I was in the best position to take a shot (like standing behind or beside the guy when he starts shooting--even then there is the risk of appearing as an accomplice).

I know this may sound a little cowardly/selfish and won't earn me the title Rambo, by my firearm is for PERSONAL defense--me or my family/friends. I am not paid, trained, protected, or identified to provide security for the church or any place else I am at. My family comes first and that includes making sure I am around to continue to be there for them.

[fightingquaker13]

I attend a "megachurch" of about 5-6,000, and we have off-duty, uniformed LEOs (usually 2-3 in uniform). We also have some plain clothes off-duty, and retired LEOs as well. I would think that any church that size would. That doesn't include any CCW holders that may be carrying since it is legal where I live. Explosives are another issue altogether, but amid the chaos of someone walking in shooting, my biggest concern would be of people not knowing who is who. I think if I went after the shooter, there would be a very good chance of someone thinking I am the bad guy. End of life.

I think I would certainly take a back seat to the uniformed LEOs, and only draw my firearm if the shooter were coming at me or my family, or I was in the best position to take a shot (like standing behind or beside the guy when he starts shooting--even then there is the risk of appearing as an accomplice).

I know this may sound a little cowardly/selfish and won't earn me the title Rambo, by my firearm is for PERSONAL defense--me or my family/friends. I am not paid, trained, protected, or identified to provide security for the church or any place else I am at. My family comes first and that includes making sure I am around to continue to be there for them.

Amen.
FQ13