Ga State USPSA Championship

[bbbean]

It would be fun if they had a LimProd Division that let you load your mags up all the way though...

They do - It's called Limited. if your gun is a 9 or you shoot minor 40, it's Limited minor.

[bbbean]

Here's the best explanation I've found so for why all production is Minor.   It's a safety issue with some production (unmodified) models of High Power Factor guns.   Hence the rule encourages/forces serious competitors to use 9mm.

Production is scored minor because USPSA didn't want to penalize shooters who used their 9mm carry guns. They limited capacity to 10 rounds so as not to penalize shooters in states that have 10 round mag limits. It's an even playing field for everyone.

[alfsauve]

Production is scored minor because USPSA didn't want to penalize shooters who used their 9mm carry guns.

If you have a link to a USPSA document to support that I'll go along with it.  But here's a couple of my thoughts along those lines.

a)  That would then penalize someone who only owns a .40 or .45 by making them score minor. 
b)  That would violate principles 2 & 3 of IPSC 

2 Accuracy, power and speed are the equivalent elements of practical shooting and practical competition must be conducted in such a way as to evaluate these elements equally.

3 Firearm types are not separated, all compete together without handicap. This does not apply to the power of the firearms as power is an element to be recognized and rewarded.

http://ipsc.org/ipsccon4.htm#Principles

[bbbean]

If you have a link to a USPSA document to support that I'll go along with it.  But here's a couple of my thoughts along those lines.

As I'm sure you know, the USPSA board minutes are fairly short and non-encyclopedic. The only direct mention of purpose in the BOD minutes is from the 1/22/2000: "The purpose of production division is to open USPSA to new shooters, manufacturers and sponsors."
The specific rules for Production division were formally approved at the next BOD meeting in March of 2000, but the discussion related to power factor was not included.
Of course, given that it appears Production division originated in IPSC and was subsequently adopted by USPSA the IPSC board minutes might prove a better place to work.
That said, everything I've ever read or heard from USPSA BOD members, Area directors, or shooters who were active at the time has made it clear the division was created to allow commonly used and carried 9mm guns to be competitive, and to make the sport more attractive to shooters who were turned off by the "arms race" in Limited and Open. IMHO, it worked.

a)  That would then penalize someone who only owns a .40 or .45 by making them score minor. 
b)  That would violate principles 2 & 3 of IPSC 
http://ipsc.org/ipsccon4.htm#Principles

There is no penalty for 40 and 45 shooters. They can download and shoot the same power factors as 9mm, or they can load to 165+ PF and shoot in Lim/Lim10. They can still shoot major in Prod if they want. But if they scored Production maj/min like other divisions, the 9mm would be non-competitive.

[alfsauve]

No matter how much you try to "splain" to me (using my best Ricky Ricardo accent) about "commonly used and carried"  it still violates principle 3.   Not number 43, or number 23, but number 3.   They didn't put it at the bottom of the list, but at the top, meaning it's very important to the concept of IPSC.   

It is always a choice, lower power,  lower recoil, fewer points for non-A hits; higher power, higher recoil more points for non-A's.   It's the principle the other divisions follow.   I'm not buying the "most people have" reason.  It discriminates against those who only have a .40 and would like to get into the game.   Besides what's most common for a LEO to have these days?  9mm or .40?

For me, while I don't agree with the reasoning, the "unspoken" safety issue still tops my list.

And that's my story and I'm sticking with it.

[Sponsor]

[ellis4538]

Alf, contact HQ and see if they can give you a reasonable answer.

Richard

[alfsauve]

As I said many posts ago, I'm not fixated on this.  When I see inconsistencies, (like violating principles 2 &3), it just makes me curious.  Those who've been intimately involved, who've given their time and money to establishing this game have their reasons.   They, I'm sure have debated it long and hard and they reached this conclusion.    I'm a newcomer to the game and am more curious than anything.   It's a game and those are the rules.   

I'll just shoot my 9mm, that's all.   

Alf, contact HQ and see if they can give you a reasonable answer.

I don't think they can "publish" a straight answer either way.  Either theory will alienate some group.   Either Production shooters or a manufacturer.

[bbbean]

it still violates principle 3.   Not number 43, or number 23, but number 3.   They didn't put it at the bottom of the list, but at the top, meaning it's very important to the concept of IPSC. 

Apparently the BODs of both IPSC and USPSA disagree.

[alfsauve]

Apparently the BODs of both IPSC and USPSA disagree.

So that bring us back to full circle.  They had their reasons and made their decision.   Just curious why.  I may go digging, when I have time in the IPSC and USPSA archives.