Just A Perspective On Light Loads For SD With A Shotgun

[twyacht]

That's why I prefer 00Buck, 9 or 21 pellet. Although his follow up with an empty shotgun makes sense also.

http://randomthoughtsandguns.blogspot.com/2012/02/shotguns-i-hope-this-post-makes-joan.html

10 February 2012
Shotguns, I hope this post makes Joan Peterson cry.
Got this quote from Weerd about birdshot and shotguns for self defense.

    I’ll make a quick assumption. There ARE people who use long sporting shotguns for home defense, and there are people who think bird and skeet loads are useful for home defense (they aren’t DON’T!), there’s a strong chance that this isn’t a home defense gun, and a better chance that its just a hunting gun that was either intentionally left loaded, or never properly cleared for storage.

Here is the caveat, the lighter your projectile the closer you need to be to your target to do damage.  If all you have birdshot or skeet loads in your pump gun then you literally, not figuratively, shove the muzzle of your shotgun against skin to get decent terminal ballistics.  The thing about fires is that if you aren't achieving the effect you desire, just use more.

There are much better choices than light shot for home defense, but if you find yourself needing to stop someone NOW with what you have on hand, pull the trigger and pump the action as fast as you can while advancing on the intruder.  You need to close the distance to make your fires effective.  Be AGGRESSIVE enough, FAST enough, and you'll live through it.  If you run out of rounds on the way in, BUTT STROKE the bad guy to the head, kick him in the guts, use the empty shotgun like a baseball bat and start wailing on the perp with all your might.

If you end up shoving the muzzle of your shotgun into a hole opened up by a previous shot then so be it.  Point blank range starts at the muzzle, and while firearms are a good way to gain space, sometimes you have to close space to gain an advantage.  Better to be showering off someones guts later than a statistic.

Unlike Joan Peterson, I don't advocate for the rights of criminals to have a safe working environment.  Identify the threat (positive identification, know what you need to do) and then eliminate the threat.  Just cause you don't have buckshot or slugs in your bird gun is no excuse to abdicate your duty to protect yourself and your loved ones.

****

Variables, of course, come into play based on one's particular environment. Thought it was worth considering.

Thoughts?

[tombogan03884]

I have no problem with the basic gist of what he says, but I completely disagree with his opinion of lighter shot loads.
The Box o'truth video shows larger shot penetrating 6 - 9 sheets of dry wall, between me and my neighbor there are 2.
I would not miss him if I accidentally blew him away, but it would greatly complicate an otherwise simple case of self defense.

[bjtraz]

While I respect everyone's right to an opinion, I just reserve my right to evaluate them based on mine. I also agree with some of what he says, need to be relatively close, beat them with an empty gun, etc. At room distances, 10-18' in my neck of the woods, the 7 ,8 & 9 shot would open 6-10". No one can tell me that 300-400 pellets traveling700 + FPS wouldn't do formidable damage to the human body, no matter where they hit. I'm going to fall back on the "cliche" argument, would YOU stand there after being hit by this and wait for another?!?

Brian

[Big Frank]

If shot spreads 1" per yard traveled I would be shooting 3" patterns. But I use a handgun so it doesn't matter.

[Magoo541]

I have never thought of using bird shot loads for Home Defense, they make 00 Buck for that.  My neighbors are at least 40 feet away from the closest corner of my house, the garage, and those walls are 3/4 OSB over R-13 insulation on the inside and 3/4 siding on the outside.  Now in my younger days I used to "drill" holes with birdshot from about 5-7 feet through 2x4s and 2x6s so I know what it can do at close range.  But I'm agree with the author you have to use what you have on hand, I just like to keep the buck shot on hand.  Right now I have 3" loads in the 870 and really need to get some 2 3/4" low recoil for the house because my daughter sleeps on the other side of the wall from me-a closet and clothes between me and her not likely that I'll shoot from my side of the bed into the closet 3 feet away.  The other two girls sleep upstairs with sheet rock and flooring between me and them in most HD situations.

[Sponsor]

[Solus]

While I respect everyone's right to an opinion, I just reserve my right to evaluate them based on mine. I also agree with some of what he says, need to be relatively close, beat them with an empty gun, etc. At room distances, 10-18' in my neck of the woods, the 7 ,8 & 9 shot would open 6-10". No one can tell me that 300-400 pellets traveling700 + FPS wouldn't do formidable damage to the human body, no matter where they hit. I'm going to fall back on the "cliche" argument, would YOU stand there after being hit by this and wait for another?!?

Brian

I don't think the objection to small shot is that the bad guys would enjoy getting hit with it, just that they wouldn't stand and wait for another....instead they'd reach you and do you in before you got off a second shot...and then die later.

I really don't know the terminal ballistics of small shot on humans at SD ranges, so I don't know if they are right in their belief it would be ineffective...but without penetration, it is not going to do as good a job as a load that does.

[tombogan03884]

I don't think the objection to small shot is that the bad guys would enjoy getting hit with it, just that they wouldn't stand and wait for another....instead they'd reach you and do you in before you got off a second shot...and then die later.

I really don't know the terminal ballistics of small shot on humans at SD ranges, so I don't know if they are right in their belief it would be ineffective...but without penetration, it is not going to do as good a job as a load that does.

It's a compromise between what will be most effective and reasonable concerns about common sense liability.
In the case of "lethal/ less lethal" I think worrying about law suits at the expense of effectiveness is just plain stupid.
But that is not a case of injuring or killing a, more or less, innocent bystander as this is.

[Solus]

It's a compromise between what will be most effective and reasonable concerns about common sense liability.
In the case of "lethal/ less lethal" I think worrying about law suits at the expense of effectiveness is just plain stupid.
But that is not a case of injuring or killing a, more or less, innocent bystander as this is.

I agree.  It all depends upon how much less effective the bird shot is.  If it is 90% as effective as 00 while virtually eliminating the risk of dead neighbors, it is a good trade off.  If, on the other hand it is only 20% effective, it becomes a tougher choice.

So, the assignment to SD Shot Shell manufactures is to come up with a load that approaches or exceeds the effectiveness of 00, while not being able to penetrate two layers of sheetrock.

Maybe something like those flat disks I've seen in ads for .410 pistols might do the trick.

[tombogan03884]

I agree.  It all depends upon how much less effective the bird shot is.  If it is 90% as effective as 00 while virtually eliminating the risk of dead neighbors, it is a good trade off.  If, on the other hand it is only 20% effective, it becomes a tougher choice.

So, the assignment to SD Shot Shell manufactures is to come up with a load that approaches or exceeds the effectiveness of 00, while not being able to penetrate two layers of sheetrock.

Maybe something like those flat disks I've seen in ads for .410 pistols might do the trick.

Dimes used to be popular .

[GeorgeCook]

Maybe slightly off topic, but here's a video showing the comparison between a 20 gauge and 12 gauge:

I live in a brick home, so over penetration is not as much of a concern for me. I use #1 BK for my 12 gauge load; sixteen 30 caliber pellets is bound to hurt.

This is posted elsewhere on this forum but try these podcasts from Mas Ayoob too:

http://proarmspodcast.com/2009/02/01/017a-homing-in-on-the-defensive-shotgun/
http://proarmspodcast.com/2009/02/22/017b-homing-in-on-the-defensive-shotgun/

Best of Luck!