Just A Perspective On Light Loads For SD With A Shotgun

[tombogan03884]

Maybe slightly off topic, but here's a video showing the comparison between a 20 gauge and 12 gauge:

I live in a brick home, so over penetration is not as much of a concern for me. I use #1 BK for my 12 gauge load; sixteen 30 caliber pellets is bound to hurt.

This is posted elsewhere on this forum but try these podcasts from Mas Ayoob too:

http://proarmspodcast.com/2009/02/01/017a-homing-in-on-the-defensive-shotgun/
http://proarmspodcast.com/2009/02/22/017b-homing-in-on-the-defensive-shotgun/

Best of Luck!

Might want to cross post that to the thread where "Tstsand" was asking about the shotgun for HD.

[billt]

I have fired thousands of 12 Ga. Trap and Skeet loads. In Trap you are limited to 1, 1/8th ounce of shot no larger than 7 1/2, and a velocity no higher than 1,200 FPS, or else you face disqualification. I cannot believe anyone thinks that load is not lethal in the confines of an average suburban home. If anyone has any doubt shoot a 2 X 4 at 10 feet with one and it will change your mind rapidly.

Yes, at 45 yards you'll look like Dick Cheney's buddy. But from across a bedroom forget it. Talk to any trauma surgeon and they'll tell you shotgun blasts are the hardest for a victim to recover from because of the carnage they cause. Don't underestimate bird shot at close range. An ounce of lead at 1,200 FPS doesn't spread out much across a living room.

[Tennessee Jed]

I once assisted a lawyer on a criminal case, where the defendant shot a guy from a distance of about 3 feet dead center in the chest with a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot.  The guy lived and testified against the defendant in court.   I don't remember the details of what he was wearing, what size shot was used, etc.  However, from that day on, I always kept my defense shotguns loaded with buckshot.

I'm not sure I agree with the concept of advancing on a bad guy, firing birdshot.  You'd better be really good at counter-disarm techniques, because I think there will be a hand to hand fight over that shotgun if bad guy doesn't go down right away.

[Solus]

The question is not how much damage is done or how extensive the recovery.

The question is whether bird shot at SD ranges is a reliable fight stopper.

It would seem that the more extensive the damage, the more likely the fight would stop, but that might not be true.

[twyacht]

The question is not how much damage is done or how extensive the recovery.

The question is whether bird shot at SD ranges is a reliable fight stopper.

It would seem that the more extensive the damage, the more likely the fight would stop, but that might not be true.

BG's are sporting body armor and also a consideration, (as previously posted and discussed)....Bird shot won't crack his sternum, or break a rib if he's "suited" up,....than of course, one aims higher, or groin, hip area....or keep firing than beat him with it...have back up pistol.

Point being I want him down,...like not writhing on the floor, bleeding, and screaming, but real quiet, real still, with some gurgling. I'll be on the phone with 911, and need him quiet...

[Sponsor]

[Dedicated_Dad]

There's a REASON that bird shot is called "bird shot."
There's a REASON that buck shot is called "buck shot."

Birds are tiny little animals with thin skin and thin, fragile, hollow bones.

BUCKS on the other hand are about the size of a human, and skin about the same thickness and strength. Additionally, their bones are surprisingly similar to ours in density and toughness, especially their ribs.

In hunting birds, one wishes to kill the bird in-flight without blowing it into pink mist. A few tiny pellets are usually sufficient, and a larger pattern makes it easier to hit flying birds.

Hunting BUCKS on the other hand requires much more penetration - it must not only go through skin and bones but must penetrate deeply enough to damage arteries or the spine - thus stopping the animal from running away.

A wounded buck that escapes and dies later of his wounds or MUCH LATER of infection is no good - we need to drop him where he stands if possible - turn him off like a light-switch.

It should be obvious by now that HUMANS are much more like BUCKS, and bear little resemblance to BIRDS.

If your opponent is built like a bird, I guess birdshot would be an option - but since he's built like a Buck, buck-shot or slugs are the **ONLY** viable option!

Those who think that an ounce of lead is an ounce of lead are mistaken or deluded.

THINK.

Even at HD distances, with minimal spread, you're still shooting little tiny things with birdshot - and they just don't penetrate like buck. There are countless examples of people who were shot point-blank with birdshot and lived.  The odds are much, much worse for anyone hit with buck!

If you value the things you're supposedly protecting - YOUR life and those of your FAMILY - USE BUCK!

If you value the PERP'S life above those, then feel free to use birdshot! Why take a chance on really hurting him~!

[tombogan03884]

THINK.

Even at HD distances, with minimal spread, you're still shooting little tiny things with birdshot - and they just don't penetrate like buck. There are countless examples of people who were shot point-blank with birdshot and lived.  The odds are much, much worse for anyone hit with buck!

If you value the things you're supposedly protecting - YOUR life and those of your FAMILY - USE BUCK!

If you value the PERP'S life above those, then feel free to use birdshot! Why take a chance on really hurting him~!

If you read the whole thread you would understand that the lack of over penetration is the whole point.
If you don't have neighbors with in 50 yards don't be a wimp with buckshot, use a slug, or a .44 mag.
If, like the majority of the US population, you live within 50 ft of another house you want something different.