Author Topic: Ron Paul for president  (Read 23979 times)

Cogz

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Re: Ron Paul for president
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2007, 04:53:18 PM »
They should have investigated why these events happened, and go after the people who did it.

Which is what they did in Afghanistan.  However, the time it took to bring our troops into the country gave Osama and company plenty of warning which allowed him to escape to the mountains of Pakastan (allegedly) where it is sticky politically for our military to tread.

The alternate possibility is to issue "Letters of Marquee and Reprisal" which is basically like a bounty on the heads of whomever we issue them against.  It would allow us to deny involvement with individual acts of violence because we would only pay them once the job is done.  Also, it would define the objective clearly so that both the 'hunters' and the areas they operate in know that once the job is complete, they will get paid and leave.  Lets say we offered 5 billion dollars reward for wiping out the top 100 Al-Qaeda.  That would be sufficiently enough to get the interest of many many bounty hunters and private armies.  5 Billion is less than one month's cost of our troops in Iraq.  Plus, Al-Qaeda wouldn't know who to trust - anyone could turn on them for that kind of money.

Basically this gets back to objectives and the reason we have to declare war.  Declarations of war have objectives.  What is the objective in Iraq?  How do we know when its done?  Fight global terror?  Where is the measuring stick that tells us how far along we are?  The fact is that the "war on terror" can never be won, because its a fight against a tactic deployed by desperate men.  There is no king or ruler to "surrender" or admit defeat.

I firmly believe in the principal of "Win it, and get out."  But how do we know when we have won?  When winning isn't defined, all you have left is various degrees of failure.

Pathfinder

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Re: Ron Paul for president
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2007, 08:36:23 PM »
Oh yeah.. and kimbertac2? Uhhh about the calendar? Don't hold your breath. I can just about guarantee that it's not gonna happen. HaHaHa ;D :D ;D  But thanks for the compliment anyway.. ;)
Now....enough of all that .................. ;D


Damn! I was just going to order at least two copies (office and workshop)!!! Deflating dreams here, M'ette . . . .

 ;D ;D ;D
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Teresa Heilevang

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Re: Ron Paul for president
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2007, 12:09:00 AM »
Coqz........................
My god... I think I have met my match in the "talk dept".  ;D ;D


Good points. REAL good points. Some of it I think is a bit stretched from the content I was talking about.. but points well taken.
I can't come back with anything..........wished I could, but my brain is tired.  :D

I'll wave the white flag on this one.. Not that I think I am defeated..( I am not going to call Uncle all the way  ;) ) but I think we have run the course of this particular subject.

((Still like poor old no financial  $$ Mike Huckabee though))





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Cogz

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Re: Ron Paul for president
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2007, 01:11:48 AM »
Trying to bring the thread back on topic...

I don't mean to talk anyone into submission - my overall point is that to call Ron Paul a kook or call his foreign policy naive you have to completely throw away the opinions of a lot of Islamic intelligence experts and historians.

Say you disagree with the evidence and what 'we' think it tells us, fine.  But calling him a kook when there is real and credible evidence to support his views is a little offensive to me.  I'd rather be called wrong than crazy personally...



TexasAggie01

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Re: Ron Paul for president
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2007, 11:41:19 AM »
My issue with Ron Paul derives from his statements on war and foreign policy and on the Patriot Act from his website:

"The war in Iraq was sold to us with false information." Not necessarily true, as it was incorrect intelligence, supplied by the CIA, British Intelligence, the new KGB (scary thought, that), and IIRC, French intelligence. If he meant wrong or incorrect intelligence, well, yeah, he's right. But the phrasing makes him appear to say Bush lied, as well as Tony Blair and all the intelligence agents who collaborated to create the picture of Iraq's threat. Plus, there were about a dozen point besides WMDs, which few seem to remember.

"The area is more dangerous now than when we entered it." For whom? For the thousands killed by poison gas? Or perhaps the hundreds of thousands murdered by Saddam's regime and slain in combat with the Iranians and the rest for the world in two wars? The people killed by the funds provided by Saddam to terrorist grouped such us the PLO? Or perhaps the terrorists trained in Iraq, which Saddam was turning into a mecca if you will for training? From what I can see, the area has become much more stable now that we have figured out how to get the local Sunni sheiks on our side and won't deal with the Mahdi Army thugs, for a start.

"We destroyed a regime hated by our direct enemies, the jihadists, and created thousands of new recruits for them." And killed many thousands of them, partially solving that problem. many, if not the vast majority of the terrorists now are foreigners, not Iraqis. Some were Iraqis, being members of the Ba'ath party, some were Mahdi thugs, and some were Sunnis. Operative word there is were.

"This war has cost more than 3,000 American lives, thousands of seriously wounded, and hundreds of billions of dollars." Yep

"We must have new leadership in the White House to ensure this never happens again." We'll always have wars, but I suspect he means the way this was handled. Well, under most other President, we did nothing but bomb a few factories and AA sites. That didn't stop Saddam's activities, and the Oil for Food program filled his pockets while starving his people. Frankly, President Bush has made some mistakes. However, he tends to (finally) recognize what needs to be done and appointed Petraeus. What reamins to be seen is if that's enough.

As for the Patriot Act, acts such as this are passed in wars to enable intelligence to be gathered. Most of the hyperbole over it is unwarranted. Namely, you need to have some ties to terrorist orgs before your phone is tapped and your computer records are investigated. Such as contributing to foundations that then turn the money over to the PLO, Fatah, Falangiasts, or Al Queda, for example. Should the Act be repealed after the conflict is over? Yes. Which begs the question of when do we know when the conflict is over? My idea is when Iraq and Afghanistan can take care of themselves, most of the Islamic terrorists are hunted down, and jihadists are not supported by mainstream Muslims.

Tall order, there. We'll be in this one for quite some time to come, and we'll see what Islam does when it's tenets are truly espoused and followed, like they were from 621 AD to around the early 19th century.   

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Re: Ron Paul for president
« Reply #35 on: Today at 06:09:03 PM »

Cogz

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Re: Ron Paul for president
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2007, 02:41:59 PM »
As for the Patriot Act, acts such as this are passed in wars to enable intelligence to be gathered. Most of the hyperbole over it is unwarranted. Namely, you need to have some ties to terrorist orgs before your phone is tapped and your computer records are investigated. Such as contributing to foundations that then turn the money over to the PLO, Fatah, Falangiasts, or Al Queda, for example. Should the Act be repealed after the conflict is over? Yes. Which begs the question of when do we know when the conflict is over? My idea is when Iraq and Afghanistan can take care of themselves, most of the Islamic terrorists are hunted down, and jihadists are not supported by mainstream Muslims.

Part of the reason I disagree with the patriot act is due to addition of the Military Commissions act.  (unless I am mistaken - I will do some research when I have time)  According to the military commisions act, those that tap your phone lines can write their own warrants.  They don't need to show evidence to anybody.

I want to do some research before I spout off to much more - I am not familiar with the specifics and I don't want to talk out by butt...

TexasAggie01

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Re: Ron Paul for president
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2007, 03:29:59 PM »
Cogz: I use the Patriot Act as one of two examples of where I disagree with Paul, so if you want to discuss it, feel free. Concerning the Act, my disagreement's more a matter of degree, in that I think some of it's necessary "for the duration," some of it breaks down artificial barriers prohibiting information sharing, and maybe some of it shouldn't exist. I say maybe because I've only read about 20 pages of the orginal several hundred from the original bill as it was passed, and don't plan to finish it any time soon. 

Cogz

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Re: Ron Paul for president
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2007, 07:04:24 PM »
My problem isn't the information sharing - its the changing of the rules that bind the CIA and Department of Homeland Security so that they can violate the rights we were given in the constitution.  Maybe this might sound extreme to you, but I honestly believe that those that are willing to give up essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither.

Another provision that I do not agree with - the Sneak and Peak warrant.  They are able to enter your house, look around for any evidence that they are looking for (on a warrant that THEY not a judge wrote) and leave without you knowing they were even there.

I am going to be working on a film for the next five days and I won't have much time to post - so I will sit on the wayside for now and watch.


TexasAggie01

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Re: Ron Paul for president
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2007, 10:25:43 AM »
My problem isn't the information sharing - its the changing of the rules that bind the CIA and Department of Homeland Security so that they can violate the rights we were given in the constitution.

My problem with you here is that it seems a bit difficult to share information without some binding between the two groups responsible for gathering ad using the intelligence. That said, I'm not  a real big fan of Homeland security based on their track record so far.

Maybe this might sound extreme to you, but I honestly believe that those that are willing to give up essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither.

Depends. I view as a balancing test. If it allows for much better tracking and prosecution of terrorists, then great, but not if it hurts citizens more than it benefits them. Additionally, I have seen very few citizens , if any, that have been genuinely affected by the Act, but quite a few resident aliens.

Another provision that I do not agree with - the Sneak and Peak warrant.  They are able to enter your house, look around for any evidence that they are looking for (on a warrant that THEY not a judge wrote) and leave without you knowing they were even there.

I partially agree with you here. If it's not a judge/magistrate issued warrant (for a Sneak & Peek or anything else) to search a citizen's property, then it's unconstitutional. If it is, then it's fine by me, assuming probable cause.

I am going to be working on a film for the next five days and I won't have much time to post - so I will sit on the wayside for now and watch.

Good luck. Don't feel you have to respond with any speed since you're busy. My major disagreement with Paul is the Iraq War points anyway. I really feel he misses the boat almost entirely there. Most of his other stuff I tend to agree with, but Thompson is much more my desired candidate, with maybe McCain as a running mate. Anything should be better than Senator Clinton...

Boulderlaw

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Re: Ron Paul for president
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2007, 10:26:37 AM »
Ron Paul on the Tonight Show: http://reason.tv/roughcut/show/105.html

We need a foreign policy of self-defense, not nation-building. Take a listen to this short clip: http://www.louisehartmann.com/clips/ConsNeoCons/TH-120805-CN.mp3

 

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