The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: billt on December 08, 2009, 02:18:33 PM
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For me it's three.
1.) The Glock.
When they came out, I HATED them, pure and simple. Now, I love them, and own a total of 6. Three in 9 MM, and three in .45 ACP. I couldn't be happier with all of them! They are extremely reliable, built like tanks, are very simple to operate, field strip, and clean. I simply couldn't ask for more out of a defensive pistol.
2.) The AK-47.
Same deal here as well. Couldn't stand the "Cheap Russian things made from equally cheap, inferior parts, by peasants." Now I have a total of 7. All of which run like tops, are fun as hell to shoot, easy to clean, operate, and cheap to feed in spite of todays unusually high ammunition prices.
3.) The AR-15.
I was intrigued by them, but nowhere near enough to buy one. Then the curiosity grew and grew. Finally I took the plunge and bought a Bushmaster A-2. The rest is history. I now own 7 of them. 5 Bushmasters and 2 LWRC piston guns. It really took a lot for me to "crossover" into the military type of weaponry. But now I'm a much happier person for it. It offers up far more shooting possibilities, and with it a lot more fun. And that is why we are all in this gun game to begin with! Bill T.
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Have to agree on the AK, it taught me that "effective hits" are more important than one hole groups.
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You must break stuff a lot Bill. 6 backups? Are you sure there's only one Mrs. T? ;D
FQ13
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I agree with you. I hated plastic glocks and now I own one. AKs are great.
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Never hated the Glock. I was rooming with a DC cop when they were new.He was a serious gun nut even by our standards, and he would would not shut up about them. One trip to the range to play with his and I was sold. I'm the same as Bill with the AK. I tuned my nose up at the "commie POS" in the eighties when they were practically giving them away and a case of norinco was 10% a round. Now I have learned better. I will also add double barelled shotguns to my list. I used to like pumps. Why carry 2 rounds when you could have 5? It took me ten minutes with a Parker to change my tune. I traded in my Browning on a Bernadelli O/U and haven't looked back since.
FQ13
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I still say that the only REAL reason to love glocks are because REAL guns are too complicated.... ;D ;D ;D
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My Mini 14. Kind of took guns from a sporting role in my life and showed me what they were really supposed to be used for.
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I still say that the only REAL reason to love glocks are because REAL guns are too complicated.... ;D ;D ;D
And that my friend is why I own one, and a whole butt load of PDs issue them. Monkey simple is what I want when SHTF, point and click. ;)
FQ13
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And that my friend is why I own one, and a whole butt load of PDs issue them. Monkey simple is what I want when SHTF, point and click. ;)
FQ13
Ummm, "click" would be a bad sound in that situation. It would immediately single you out as the dumbass who forgot to chamber a round..... ;D ;D
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Ummm, "click" would be a bad sound in that situation. It would immediately single you out as the dumbass who forgot to chamber a round..... ;D ;D
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thing is its figure of speech for a glock. On a rustbucket, you will hear a click long before I'm firing round 15. ;)
FQ13
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thing is its figure of speech for a glock. On a rustbucket, you will hear a click long before I'm firing round 15. ;)
FQ13
Thanks but no thanks. I'll keep my Sig. A little heavier, and only 13 rounds. But, I've never run out before my target was down. I think Tom touched on the concept of "effective hits".
As far as guns that have changed my thinking. It's not so much the gun, but the caliber. I was rolling my eyes when the .338 Lapua Mag. started to become popular. I was thinking that it was just another wildcat round. But as I have done more research into this round. I believe that this caliber can make the 1 mile shot within reason, and within budget for almost all of us. And that is a very cool thought. 8)
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thing is its figure of speech for a glock. On a rustbucket, you will hear a click long before I'm firing round 15. ;)
FQ13
What you mean kemosabe?
You talkin about the 18rds of .45ACP I can get in my Para P-14. :P
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I would add the John Browning's FN Browning M1900 (A.K.A. - the Browning No.1) single action, semi-automatic handgun. It revolutionized handguns and ushered in the transition to today's semi-auto pistols. It was designed around 1896 and produced in Belgium at the turn of the century thus the designation as the M1900.
It was the first production handgun to use a slide.
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I would add the John Browning's FN Browning M1900 (A.K.A. - the Browning No.1) single action, semi-automatic handgun. It revolutionized handguns and ushered in the transition to today's semi-auto pistols. It was designed around 1896 and produced in Belgium at the turn of the century thus the designation as the M1900.
It was the first production handgun to use a slide.
I have a sort of joint ownership deal with my dad on a Browning High Power, Belgian made circa late sixties. He didn't think he needed it and gave me a semi permanent loan. I've spent the last two years convincing him he should get a CCW and when he agreed, he wanted it back. I'm delighted he did, but God I miss that gun. 40 years old and its as tight as a nuns !@##, an absolute tack driver at 25 yards which is farther than I normally shoot handguns, and never failed with FMJ or soft points (a few hiccups with hollow points). There is just something about that gun that makes me understand the 1911 guys. The grip, the style, the history, it does seem (at the risk of sounding scary) more alive than my Glock. By that I mean craftsmanship vs factory production. All that said, I'll still carry my G26 because there is less to go wrong. :-\ But, John Moses Browning was one hell of a man.
FQ13
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Glock is the modern utilitarian mindset coming to the gun world.
Browning's, Colt's, Luger's and S&W's, were artworks in wood and steel, they have "soul", when you handle one you know that some one measured every part, and put hand work into every part to make it within tolerance.
With a Glock they just turn on the plastic squirter and go back the read the paper.
Yes Glocks are ALMOST fool proof, yes they can stand up to abuse and still work well, but they re just "Things" they have no "soul".
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Glock is the modern utilitarian mindset coming to the gun world.
Browning's, Colt's, Luger's and S&W's, were artworks in wood and steel, they have "soul", when you handle one you know that some one measured every part, and put hand work into every part to make it within tolerance.
With a Glock they just turn on the plastic squirter and go back the read the paper.
Yes Glocks are ALMOST fool proof, yes they can stand up to abuse and still work well, but they re just "Things" they have no "soul".
And here again we agree. There are many fine semi-auto shotguns out there, but you will never get me to trade in my Parker or Merkel for any amount of cash. They feel alive. A Benelli, while more effiecent is just a thing. Sames true of my Glock compared to the Bowning. Thing is though, its an ugly tool to do an ugly job and it does it well. No complaints on this end.
FQ13
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You will never see a Glock framed on any ones wall except MAYBE Gaston's.
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Same opinion of the Glock, resisted them because they were cool and everyone had them. Than went to the dark side and had a deal on a G21 45ACP.
It is a tank. but the thing just works.
M+P became what the Sigma should have been. and the AR "God Bless em'" just continue to evolve to a better rifle. Maximizing the 5.56mm is also a good thing.
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You will never see a Glock framed on any ones wall except MAYBE Gaston's.
I kinda would like to hang the Glock which is on page 34 of the ugliest gun in my gun room.
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I kinda would like to hang the Glock which is on page 34 of the ugliest gun in my gun room.
But you won't,because it will be in your IWB or in your pocket. ;) Yes they are ugly. Yes they are a souless piece of industrial crap which are to 1911s, what Eurotrash "Techno" is to real music. That said, its an ugly gun for an ugly job, and at seven yards or seven feet, when you're scared and operating on pure instinct, I defy you to find anything better. No Kool aid, just stone axe simple, and it goes bang every time.
FQ13
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wait till deepwater post some more pics of that damn Tokarev. UGLY! but absolutely functional. Snow, mud, dirt, like an AK pistol version.
Why change a good thing? Gaston had an idea...and it worked.....
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But you won't,
because it will be in your IWB or in your pocket. ;) Yes they are ugly. Yes they are a souless piece of industrial crap which are to 1911s, what Eurotrash "Techno" is to real music. That said, its an ugly gun for an ugly job, and at seven yards or seven feet, when you're scared and operating on pure instinct, I defy you to find anything better. No Kool aid, just stone axe simple, and it goes bang every time.
FQ13
most of this is, at best, opinion. That is allowing But you won't,
I would set up my girls college funds long before.
as for ugly gun for an ugly job, and at seven yards or seven feet,
watch some of the Glock shooters and tell me how you can not make beautiful music with a bucket. Watching them shoot is inspiring and it is further than 7yds many times. Especially shooting at Bianchi with a Glock in the new production class. Comparing anything in the shooting world to, Eurotrash "Techno"
is wrong on many levels. Too many.
As for your very intelligent statement, Yes they are a souless piece of industrial crap
Soulless yes, as are all guns, but tell the person that has used the Glock to protect, defend, defeat, win, brag, carried daily, present form loveone, save one's arse or feel empowered to never again be a victim and waste their time with the soulless crap quote.
Just hope they have learned the empowerment of self control.
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The AR changed my mind, when I was in college I drank some Jim Zumbo Koolaid when the 'AWB' was being talked about being passed. I wasn't an gunowner until 2000 so the more I learned and shot, the more I saw how misguided and how much fertilizer was shoveled with AWB. Both of my AR's are two of my favorite rifles because they are just fun when I just want to fling lead. The are incredibly more accurate than I am, but there are times.
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I wasn't bashing Glocks just pointing out that they are built for function with none of the old fashioned attention to aesthetics
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I wasn't bashing Glocks just pointing out that they are built for function with none of the old fashioned attention to aesthetics
Never said you did and I very much agree with you on function over looks.
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Mossburg 590 did it for me. I thought i had the best shotgun money could buy for any personal dilemma with the 870MAX until I went to a shotgun class and had to transition to my left shoulder and fire. Every time I tried my trigger finger would engage the safety.Long story short, I borrowed the Instructors 590 which uses a receiver tang safety and the rest is history along with the Remington. This was a perfect storm of Murphy's Law that could of been bad but never had a chance to happen. Best class I ever took just because of this, even if it was the only "New" thing I learned.
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I wasn't bashing Glocks just pointing out that they are built for function with none of the old fashioned attention to aesthetics
Never said you did and I very much agree with you on function over looks.
I posted that for FQ's benefit, I know when he was in Charleston he was darned glad he had his Glock.
What you posted about Bianchi cup, I would put that down to 2 things, The gun works the way it's supposed to and the shooter has shot more in practice than I have in my life ;D
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I was glad to have my glock when I got lost on the east side of columbus at 2 in the morning.
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Texcaliber you don't need to defend Glocks to me. I own two and carry one every day. I just understand that they don't have the aesthetic appeal of blue steel and wood. But who cares? Not me, its not what I buy a pistol for. Hell my 26 is green (blech) but I'd take it in pink if I had to, its just that reliable.
FQ13
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I agree that Glocks have "no soul". If I take my Smith & Wesson Model 52, or Model 41 target pistols and look them over, they reflect craftsmanship that rival a Browning over and under. With that said both would be pretty much useless in a gun fight. It seems that the best fighting weapons are all much like the Glock in that regard.
The AK-47, AR-15, Mossberg 500, Mosin Nagant, and several others come to mind. I hate to use the term "modular weapons", but that represents a desirable feature in a battle rifle. An AR-15 rifle can be "built" on a kitchen table in less than a day. Everything fits anything, almost. If you were to try and swap barrels on a Browning Superposed, they would not match up with the same smoothness and fit of the barrel the gun was shipped with. Each one is individually hand crafted in it's final assembly process. The AR-15, Glock, and several others are assembly line produced, so as to have this complete interchangeability. It is in this process they lose their individual character. Bill T.
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Glock is the modern utilitarian mindset coming to the gun world.
Browning's, Colt's, Luger's and S&W's, were artworks in wood and steel, they have "soul", when you handle one you know that some one measured every part, and put hand work into every part to make it within tolerance.
With a Glock they just turn on the plastic squirter and go back the read the paper.
Yes Glocks are ALMOST fool proof, yes they can stand up to abuse and still work well, but they re just "Things" they have no "soul".
Comment of the day award!
(http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/604777/2/istockphoto_604777_miniature_trophy_blank.jpg)
*Runner up:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=10173.msg132770#msg132770
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Glocks do indeed have no soul. They are a piece of equipment that is 100% task oriented..... I dont really care if my Glocks get lost, stolen, FUBARed, etc, etc.... I'll just go buy another one -- Hopefully with insurance money paying the tab. There have been many a time that I was "glad I had a gun".... but even more so, glad that I had the piece of mind of having that gun be a Glock.
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Glocks do indeed have no soul. They are a piece of equipment that is 100% task oriented..... I dont really care if my Glocks get lost, stolen, FUBARed, etc, etc.... I'll just go buy another one -- Hopefully with insurance money paying the tab. There have been many a time that I was "glad I had a gun".... but even more so, glad that I had the piece of mind of having that gun be a Glock.
Give yourself the second "comment of the day" award. You have hit the nail the head. A Glock is good enough for whats its for, EVERY time. You can't ask for more. If I won the Power Ball today, I'd still carry a Glock.
FQ13
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I will make another point on beauty, being from the Commi-weath of MA we can not own New Glocks, they have to be manufactured pre'98. So take away the fact that you are given the choice of what is in state as a citizen and the very sight of a used pre9'8 Glock gets you all warm and gittie inside. That also may classify as beauty. :-\
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Or desperation. The fact that you lust after newer Glocks reminds me that some where out in Ca, there is a "Mr. Pelosi"
EWWWW
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I will make another point on beauty, being from the Commi-weath of MA we can not own New Glocks, they have to be manufactured pre'98. So take away the fact that you are given the choice of what is in state as a citizen and the very sight of a used pre9'8 Glock gets you all warm and gittie inside. That also may classify as beauty. :-\
Tex, any Glocks you buy from an FFL are refurbished by Glock USA and are basically new guns. They even replace the barrels from what I've been told. Some of the guns at my FFL are LEA trade-ins and havn't even been shot. They go pretty quick.
www.firstdefensefirearms.com
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I will make another point on beauty, being from the Commi-weath of MA we can not own New Glocks, they have to be manufactured pre'98. So take away the fact that you are given the choice of what is in state as a citizen and the very sight of a used pre9'8 Glock gets you all warm and gittie inside. That also may classify as beauty. :-\
If you're interested in a gen 1 G19 with fading, but still ok tritium sights, and two Clinton 10 rounders (probably Mass. approved) PM me.
FQ13
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Poor Mr. Pelosi. If that was my wife I could not get my boot laces off fast enough to hang myself.
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I was glad to have my glock when I got lost on the east side of columbus at 2 in the morning.
I say the same thing (minus 1 glock add 1 M&P) when I worked in Steubenville/Wheeling every morning from 4am till usually about 2pm.
Security blanket?! SURE!
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Been thinking of getting a M&P just have not got around to doing it.
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I say the same thing (minus 1 glock add 1 M&P) when I worked in Steubenville/Wheeling every morning from 4am till usually about 2pm.
Security blanket?! SURE!
And what the hell is wrong with that? Mine stood me in good stead on a dark street in Charleston. We should all have the option of having that "blanket". I haven't drunk so much Kool aid that I can't rattle off the names of a half dozen pistols I'd be happy to carry. Push comes to shove though, it would be J frame or a Glock and 11 beats 6 every time.
FQ13
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Been thinking of getting a M&P just have not got around to doing it.
There are many "great" brands out there. I have a dark side approved "G" pistol and an M+P, both do what they were built to do without even a hiccup.
All I can humbly say is M+P got the chips to fall right with this one. Maybe Santa can get one in your stocking? 8)
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Santa says no right now, been working over time to get a ak.
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1) AR-platform -- I hated them...until I tried one. Now I have 7 of different variations. I love the modularity, ability to create what you want, variations.
2) XD -- I didn't like plastic...and my experience with Glocks confirmed that. However, it ended up being that I didn't like the grip angle of the Glock. My XD eats anything, shoots like a dream. It would be my go to fighting handgun, even though my sentiments are with the 1911.
3) AK -- I thought I hated them, so I bought one to confirm. I still don't love them but I appreciate what they can do. I have 3 variants -- AKM, Galil, Saiga-12. I prefer other rifles over them, however.
4) HK91/G3 -- thought I loved them...then I bought one. Ergos are horrible and they are "clunky"....reliable and tough but not refined like a FAL or AR. I own a PTR-91 and a CETME, but I wouldn't choose them in a bind...I wouldn't refuse one but I prefer the FAL or AR.
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2) XD -- I didn't like plastic...and my experience with Glocks confirmed that. However, it ended up being that I didn't like the grip angle of the Glock. My XD eats anything, shoots like a dream. It would be my go to fighting handgun, even though my sentiments are with the 1911.
See, I dont like the grip angle on the XD -- or more so that you have a grip safety in conjunction with that grip angle. I'm not a big fan of the Glock grip angle, but I am used to it. I could also get used to the XD grip angle if it did not have the grip safety. I could not 100% trust myself to have to engage a grip safety in a defensive shoot unless it was more of a true 1911 angle grip.
I also dont care for how light the trigger is on the XD.... its much like the "NY style" Glock trigger.... I much prefer the OEM Glock trigger weight
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See, I dont like the grip angle on the XD -- or more so that you have a grip safety in conjunction with that grip angle. I'm not a big fan of the Glock grip angle, but I am used to it. I could also get used to the XD grip angle if it did not have the grip safety. I could not 100% trust myself to have to engage a grip safety in a defensive shoot unless it was more of a true 1911 angle grip.
I also dont care for how light the trigger is on the XD.... its much like the "NY style" Glock trigger.... I much prefer the OEM Glock trigger weight
Been doing chin-ups with your trigger finger, eh?
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Been doing chin-ups with your trigger finger, eh?
I have a 20# left click on my mouse too!
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I have a 20# left click on my mouse too!
;D
Better pick your nose with the left finger or you'll cause brain damage.
;D
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You will never see a Glock framed on any ones wall except MAYBE Gaston's.
Even This one? ;D
(http://www.americaremembers.com/products/AEGLOCK/GlockRight.jpg)
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hmmm.
I'm going to say merkel 1620e it converted me form single trigger to double trigger.
mini 14, total convinced me that ruger makes crappy rifles. You could not hit a pie pan at 100 yds with it. I can hit a clay bird at 100 yds almost every time with a M1 and surplus ammo standing.
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hmmm.
I'm going to say merkel 1620e it converted me form single trigger to double trigger.
mini 14, total convinced me that ruger makes crappy rifles. You could not hit a pie pan at 100 yds with it. I can hit a clay bird at 100 yds almost every time with a M1 and surplus ammo standing.
I'm with you on the mini-14. I owned one and loved it under 50 yards, beyond that......Its a shame because it sholud have been the perfect carbine. The M1 carbine only in a useful caliber. I don't know what Ruger did wrong, but this should have been the go to gun for any one in LE or just civilians wanting a solid SD piece. Instead its a very sad also ran. If Ruger could get it right, I'd buy another one tommorow.
FQ13
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I tried about 20 diffrent types of ammo, cheap stuff, expensive stuff, hand loads,voodoo... you name it. It was ok for the 1st shot, after that, no telling where your shots were going. one of only 2 guns I've ever sold. The only good thing about it was, it functioned.
we even went so far as to lock it down into a test vise, that was owned by a local gun smith. the damn thing could not keep it on the paper. sent it back to ruger, they said it was fine, it was with in thier tolerance. That pretty much soured me from every buying another ruger product.
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See, I dont like the grip angle on the XD -- or more so that you have a grip safety in conjunction with that grip angle. I'm not a big fan of the Glock grip angle, but I am used to it. I could also get used to the XD grip angle if it did not have the grip safety. I could not 100% trust myself to have to engage a grip safety in a defensive shoot unless it was more of a true 1911 angle grip.
I also dont care for how light the trigger is on the XD.... its much like the "NY style" Glock trigger.... I much prefer the OEM Glock trigger weight
Have you ever fired an XD? The grip safety, at least for me, wasn't even a thought. When you pick up the gun, you disengage the grip safety. I'm not poopin' on Glocks, I just don't see it as an issue.
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Have you ever fired an XD? The grip safety, at least for me, wasn't even a thought. When you pick up the gun, you disengage the grip safety. I'm not poopin' on Glocks, I just don't see it as an issue.
Col. Cooper wasn't a fan of the grip safety on the 1911 and recommended it be pinned down to be always depressed.