The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: twyacht on December 25, 2009, 07:02:52 PM
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34592031/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/?GT1=43001
BREAKING NEWS
msnbc.com and NBC News
updated 15 minutes ago
ROMULUS, Mich. - A Nigerian man claiming ties to al-Qaida tried to light a powder aboard a commercial jetliner before it landed Friday in Detroit in what senior U.S. officials called an attempted act of terrorism.
“He appears to have had some kind of incendiary device he tried to ignite,” a senior U.S. official told NBC News. Other officials said the explosive device was a mixture of powder and liquid, which failed when the passenger tried to detonate it during the plane’s descent into Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport.
Two people noticed the attempted attack, and a third person jumped on the man and subdued him, an airline official told NBC News. The man was being treated at the burn unit of the University of Michigan Medical Center in Ann Arbor, officials said.
Federal officials identified the man as Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, 23, of Nigeria, who was traveling one way, without a return ticket.
Rep. Peter King of New York, the senior Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee, who was briefed on the incident, said Abdulmutallab was known in federal counterterrorism files and may have been on the government’s list of suspicious passengers banned from flying in the United States.
King said the incident raised troubling questions about airline security. “It must be looked into” how Abdulmutallab was able to sneak a “somewhat sophisticated device” on board, he said.
Abdulmutallab told investigators that he wanted to set off a bomb over the United States and claimed to be connected to al-Qaida, the terrorism network responsible for the attacks that killed more than 3,000 people in the United States on Sept. 11, 2001, counterterrorism officials said.
A counterterrorism official said Abdulmutallab, who was subdued by the crew of Northwest Air Lines Flight 253 from Amsterdam, left Lagos, Nigeria, on Thursday and boarded the flight in Amsterdam on Friday.
The timing of the attempted attack could be significant. It was eight years ago this week that a similar attempted attack was launched by a British member of al-Qaida who tried to blow up a flight from Paris to Miami by igniting explosives in his shoes. And the attempted attack comes on the same day that the Taliban released a video of a U.S. soldier it is holding captive in Afghanistan.
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More at link,
Let's see how this is "spun" into a "non" event, by a disturbed individual....
Seems passengers and crew saw what was going on and pretty much stopped his attempts.
Remember the shoe bomber? He had a few "extra" blows of persuasion on his attempt also.
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What the hell is their obsession with planes?
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What the hell is their obsession with planes?
Unarmed potential victims.
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Unarmed potential victims.
True, but after 9/11 American passengers are NOT going to tolerate box cutters, IED's , or whatever,.. able bodied passengers will simply "bum rush" and beat the s*** out of anyone who tries this crap again.
The guy you wouldn't give the time of day in the terminal from Tulsa, will have your back if some hijacker tries this crap, and that is what appears to have happened on this flight.
Never again....
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One major point of fascination with planes is that they are extremely delicate, and when something does break there is no "Pulling over to the Breakdown lane".
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First report of this I read said that he set off firecrackers, and the injuries were from panic.
Why airlines? My thoughts are that an airliner is a secure and secluded place; it has many victims built in; it is large, heavy and loaded with fuel making it a mobile bomb; and anything that happens with an airliner will instantly become world news. Pardon the pun, but using an airliner is the biggest bang for the buck.
Along with this we need to remember that these are "terror" attacks. By attacking airlines, railroad and large office buildings (World Trade Center, Pentagon, Federal buildings, etc.) they remove our sense of security. And, by removing our sense of security they are half way to victory.
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I, for one, am glad for the obsession with planes. Airport security, as annoying and flawed as it is, is pretty tight compared to the rest of our lives. The terrorists spend time, money and energy (ala Wille E. Coyote) trying to foil it. The terrorists do this because they know it will make the news. Frankly though, if I were a terrorist, I'd say sod this for a game of soldiers, and go low tech. Recruit a few dozen knuckle heads, arm them with AKs or shotguns and turn them loose in a few shopping malls or mega-churches one fine Sunday morning. You would have almost guarranteeded sucess, lower risk of being detected beforehand, and save a lot of money.
FQ13
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As the details of this story come to light it would behoove one to remember that we are going to be told partial truths (at best) to keep a lid on the situation. The cowboys (the folks feeding the lamestream media the "facts") are going to be singing their hearts out to make sure the heard doesn't get spooked. And those fools will think they are doing some actual journalism.
Sorry, did that sound cynical? :o
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I, for one, am glad for the obsession with planes. Airport security, as annoying and flawed as it is, is pretty tight compared to the rest of our lives. The terrorists spend time, money and energy (ala Wille E. Coyote) trying to foil it. The terrorists do this because they know it will make the news. Frankly though, if I were a terrorist, I'd say sod this for a game of soldiers, and go low tech. Recruit a few dozen knuckle heads, arm them with AKs or shotguns and turn them loose in a few shopping malls or mega-churches one fine Sunday morning. You would have almost guarranteeded sucess, lower risk of being detected beforehand, and save a lot of money.
FQ13
Air line security is a joke, all that TSA crap is just a smoke screen to comfort the clueless.
With a limited amount of observation and information from the internet you could sneak an ICBM onto an airliner, (If it will fit )
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Air line security is a joke, all that TSA crap is just a smoke screen to comfort the clueless.
With a limited amount of observation and information from the internet you could sneak an ICBM onto an airliner, (If it will fit )
Agreed, my first hand sources have told me the same. I just don't know why they don't roll a half dozen duffel bags into a bottlenecked airport security and figure the rest out from there.
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Agreed, my first hand sources have told me the same. I just don't know why they don't roll a half dozen duffel bags into a bottlenecked airport security and figure the rest out from there.
Again though, why bother? Checkpoints, explosives, armed guards? Why complicate things? You'd get more bang for the buck with 24 idiots and an equal mumber of AKs or shorguns in Churches, malls and schools with a lot less chance of getting caught beforehand. Remember the DC sniper. Two idiots with a rifle and a beat up car were front page news for weeks. They only got caught by luck. Look at Mumbai.These Al-Queda folks are too hopped up on their own propaganda to think tactically, and for that I am grateful.
FQ13
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What really blows my mind about all of the security bottlenecks at airports (and theme parks!) is that the effort to keep 'the plane' and 'the park' secure from a terrorist actually helps a terrorist. Think about it. They just gather massive amounts of tightly packed victims into one area (outside the gate) for a terrorist or two to blow themselves up amongst. Half their work is done - the target is massed, packed tight and relatively immobile. Who checks you before you get in to the massive crowd waiting for the security check? No one, that's who.
The whole system is one giant opiate for the masses; one that gives the impression of security for the sheeple still in denial. Fact is, everyone is in it neck deep and better just come to grips with the reality of the situation. Any place, any time a large group is present, you are a target for the nuts and the terrorists.
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for awhile, I was checked closely every time I traveled because I was flying with 1 way tickets. now, TSA looks at my 'TWIT' card and don't even know who issues it.... nor do they care. it's the same people that pay their checks.. 'homeland security'. what a joke they are. I can't believe 'TSA' can catch anything in their 'x-rays' considering the type of trash they hire......
AAAAAGHHGHHHHH!!!!!!!!
of course you can get on an airplane with whatever you want.
and of course, look at what was done in Mumbai with just a few guys with rifles.....
(good tactics by the way)
more effective and better chance of escape...
just my .02
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The main reason they go after planes is... they get lots of media attention. It really is that simple.
I'm not afraid of the guy that is willing to blow himself up to make a statement. I'm afraid of the guy that knows what he is doing.
A suicide attack takes zero skill and almost no training.
I've mentioned this before, a guy with a rifle could do litterly 100s mill in damage in 1 night in the bay area, all from a 1000+ yards way from his targets. The only way you could really stop him is if you get lucky.
Take 10 guys with rifles, it litterly would be over in a matter of mins.
Taking out the bay areas, oil industry, would litterly effect every one in the country, at every level. If you were to do simlar attacks all over this nation at the same time, you would shut this country down.
Now I know the terrorist have people that are smart enough to figure this stuff out, have the talent to do it( or can train them, even multiable suicide atttacks, like flying light aircraft into the refinerys would work) and understand what a attack like this would do.
The real question is why they have not done this...
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TAB is correct, Big news coverage is important.
Large operations with a dozen folks means the mopes have to keep quiet for operational security. They seem to have a problem with that. One or two man attacks are very hard to uncover.
When I was in Romania for a conference last year there was lots of talks on the problem of liquid explosives. They are hard to detect and are very powerful. The only good news was that most of the mopes blow themselves up because they tend to be pretty unstable.
It looks like they are following the old PLO tactic of going through less secure airports and transfering to the target countries. Athens was the big hole in airport security for years.
I agree that TSA is next to worthless. They did detect the AR wrench in my daypack last week. The security agent had no idea what is was but at least he didn't wig out on me. Coming back from LA I got felt up by another TSA droid. I guess they hadn't screen enough pasty white middle age guys for their quota.
I thought this was going to stop when you guys elected Oboma? ;)
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If you don't like the TSA, ty flying El Al some time. Make your reservation early because they might do a background check and wear clean undrwear as the odds are good their security people will be seeing it.
FQ13
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TSA is a joke! Security is hit and miss. But the majority of sheep Obey commands so that makes airplanes along with their delicate, deadly parts real nice targets!!!
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If you don't like the TSA, ty flying El Al some time. Make your reservation early because they might do a background check and wear clean undrwear as the odds are good their security people will be seeing it.
FQ13
Do you know this from personal experience, or just shooting off your opinion?
In fact, El Al has great security, 180 degrees from the US. TSA wankers are taught not to engage you, to stay focused on their jobs. El Al has everyone monitoring the passengers waiting in line or to board, and has special agents who are profiling the hell out of people, and engaging anyone they think is even slightly hinky. They look you in the eye, make small talk, and know how to read people. THAT is the primary reason El Al is the safest airline to fly, even though it is probably the most heavily targeted.
And yes, I know this from personal experience, I've known some of the agents.
And yes, TSA security is a joke. I make it a point to evaluate each time I go through security to see where the loopholes are. They abound.
As for putting packed duffels through security, having been through Chicago, Newark, Atlanta and especially United at Denver, that would mess up a lot of peoples' days. Like the one vignette in ModWar2 in the Russian airport. Lots of sheep waiting in the queues.
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Do you know this from personal experience, or just shooting off your opinion?
In fact, El Al has great security, 180 degrees from the US. TSA wankers are taught not to engage you, to stay focused on their jobs. El Al has everyone monitoring the passengers waiting in line or to board, and has special agents who are profiling the hell out of people, and engaging anyone they think is even slightly hinky. They look you in the eye, make small talk, and know how to read people. THAT is the primary reason El Al is the safest airline to fly, even though it is probably the most heavily targeted.
Second hand experience. I had several Israeli friends, and a girl friend, in college. El Al (this was late '80s) would do things like run credit checks to verify passenger's identities. They also would use the observation techniques you descibed. During heightened alert at Dulles, they would sometimes use those cherry picker style buses to move people to the tarmac. Here, men and women were segregated into two busses and a mild strip search was conducted. If you didn't like it, don't fly El Al. Plus side, you were damn sure your plane wasn't going to get hijacked.
FQ13
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This from my local paper this morning.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/1007036.html
Perry Cooper, spokesman for Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, said Friday evening that airport police had been working with the Transportation Security Administration concerning a response to the event in Detroit.
“We have done some increase in visible patrols in and around the terminal,” Cooper said. “They’ll work to respond appropriately. That’s what folks would notice. Otherwise, we don’t expect anything that the traveling public would see.“
Any further reaction, he said, is “nothing that the traveling public would be aware of.”
For travelers departing from of arriving at Sea-Tac, he said, “We don’t expect any delays.”
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El Al also has armed "Sky Marshals" who WILL shoot you on most, if not all air craft. their planes are also equiped with flare dispensers and other counter measures.
TAB is dead right about the menace to refineries, while I lived in Ca. 2 of the 5 area refineries were down for repairs, when a third had an explosion that killed some maintenance workers it was forced to close for repairs. I don't know what the effect was nation wide but locally gas prices nearly doubled.
as for protecting against terrorist attacks, forget it, it can not be done, the best you can hope for is to complicate their planning to the point it is not worth it. however, suicide bombers are not concerned with escape so that eliminates half their problems.
As others have mentioned, if all your defenses are up front as TSA has theirs set up, even if they ARE to stupid to make their approach through the employee angle, you have still assembled a large tempting target for them, people still remember the Lod air port massacre after nearly 40 years. And yes, news reports are the terrorists friend as front page stories with photo's of torn and bleeding bodies stay in the memories of people who may find themselves in the same situation (standing in the Check in line during rush hour) 2 people stabbed on page one has terror value than a vaporized city covered as a 1 inch blurb on page 37B.
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http://www.news.com.au/world/al-qaeda-plot-to-blow-up-us-plane-fails/story-e6frfkyi-1225813733415
THE United States has reportedly known for years that the suspect in the attack could have terrorist ties.
AN official briefed on the attack on a Detroit airliner says the US has known for at least two years that the suspect in the attack could have terrorist ties.
The official said that the suspect, Umar Farouk Abdul Mutallab, has been on a list that includes people with known or suspected contact or ties to a terrorist or terrorist organisation.
He spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing.
The Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment list is maintained by the US National Counterterrorism Centre. It includes about 550,000 names.
People on that list are not necessarily on the no-fly list. US Representative Peter King said Mr Mutallab was not on the no-fly list, Associated Press has reported.
Mr King, a Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee, said no federal air marshals were on the flights from Nigeria to Amsterdam and from Amsterdam to Detroit. Mutallab did not go through full-body image screening at either airport, the congressman said.
Democratic Representative Bennie Thompson, the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, said Mr Mutallab would have been re-screened at the Amsterdam airport after his flight from Nigeria.
Mr Thompson and others say the Amsterdam airport has long had a good reputation for security.
He said he plans to hold a hearing in January about the incident.
"It's still safe to fly,'' Mr Thompson said.
The incident occurred as Northwest Airlines Flight 253, an Airbus 330 carrying 278 passengers, was making its final descent to the American city of Detroit.
It started with a noise, then a burst of flame, then a brave passenger rushed down the aisle and tackled a suspected terrorist as a packed airplane descended towards the airport on Christmas Day.
"There was a pop. And everybody got a little bit startled. And then we looked around and saw nothing," said Syed Jafry, who was sitting three rows behind the suspected terrorist.
"After a few seconds or so, then there was a little bit of light, a little bit of, kind of flame-ish light and there was fire. And people began to panic almost. And everybody was rushing towards that area and tried to get water, a blanket and fire extinguisher."
People nearby tried to put the flame out, but it went a bit higher.
A young man three or four rows behind Jafry did not panic, however.
"He took care of that suspect. He handled him pretty good," Mr Jafry told CNN.
"There was a little bit, obviously, of a struggle. And I think he took it under control."
The incident could have been "catastrophic," Mr King said.
US media, citing a federal security bulletin, said the man told investigators he had acquired the explosive d was conducting additional screening.
"All passengers de-planed and out of an abundance of caution the plane was moved to a remote area where the plane and all the baggage are currently being re-screened," the agency said in a statement.
Incident an attempted terrorist attack - US
White House officials and US lawmakers said the incident was a terror attack and President Barack Obama, on vacation with his family in Hawaii, ordered increased security measures after being briefed on the attempt.
"We believe this was an attempted act of terrorism," a senior White House official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
Mr Obama held a secure conference call with his Homeland Security and Counter-terrorism Advisor John Brennan, and National Security Council chief of staff Denis McDonough.
Mr Obama "instructed that all appropriate measures be taken to increase security for air travel," the White House said.
"The President is actively monitoring the situation and receiving regular updates," the statement read.
Delta co-operating with authorities
Susan Elliott, a spokeswoman for Delta, Northwest's parent company, said: "The passenger was immediately subdued and Delta is cooperating with authorities in the investigation."
Ms Elliott said that some passengers received minor injuries, including the person who sparked the incident.
She said the description of the item the passenger had tried to ignite came from other passengers, and was unable to comment on a report from ABC News that the item was a "powdery substance" rather than a firework.
The flight landed safely at Detroit Metropolitan Airport overnight and authorities were investigating.
"The passengers are being questioned as part of the investigation and the plane is being searched for similar reasons," Ms Elliott said.
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One observation and one comment:
NBC news reported tonight that the terrorist used PETN, an explosive used by the military. Is this explosive used exclusively by the military or is it readily available in other forms? I think it is curious he had an explosive that is normally used by the military(ies) with him.
And what rights are we willing to give up now to be "secure"? Is it time for the mother of all "Patriot Acts"? In the same broadcast they mentioned the terrorist was on a "terrorist watch list", not the no-fly list. He was considered to very low level, but their assessment was wrong, I suppose.
I believe we will be told in the coming days that more screening and aggressive intelligence gathering techniques need to be authorized so they make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again. It's time to get rid of this police state that has been constructed over the past 70 years. It's time to get our freedoms back. The price we are paying is not worth it to me.
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I agree completely, if some one is determined to hit a target and does not care about escape then it doesn't matter if you have guards shoulder to shoulder all the way around it, it can be hit.
I'm not positive but I think PETN is also used in commercial blasting, there are also huge quantities of military ordnance of every description floating around since the fall of the Soviet Union, good Commanders were selling equipment to feed their troops, the majority were getting rich while the troops went with out payback in the late 90's there were news reports about American intelligence tracking a Soviet nuke from it's storage location into Iran, No reports of it being intercepted.
The last attack I heard of on an El Al airliner was a few years ago 2 Palistinians launched a Soviet SA7 surface to air missile at one on its approach to Romes airport.
That doesn't take into account leftovers from the tons of stuff we supplied the Afghans with in the 80's, or what China or N Korea will sell to any one with cash. Military equipment , from ammo to aircraft, tanks, and even ships, are one of the 3 most common types of contraband on the international black market, the other 2 being women and drugs.
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People nearby tried to put the flame out, but it went a bit higher.
A young man three or four rows behind Jafry did not panic, however.
"He took care of that suspect. He handled him pretty good," Mr Jafry told CNN.
"There was a little bit, obviously, of a struggle. And I think he took it under control."
The future of hijacking American Flights in a post 9/11 world. We will put you out and kick your ass as we do so.
The shoebomber, boxcutter , terrorist approach won't work anymore. Too many pissed off passengers, delayed, missed their connection, and a punk with an IED or blade, is going to get what he deserves.
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Pentaerythritoltetranitrate ( PETN) can be made at home with chemicals that can be found in just about any chem lab.
you only need 6 things to make it
nitric acid
sulpheric acid
actone
Pentaerythritol
water
bicarb of soda
I'm sure a quick google search and you could get exact spects and proceedures.
Yeah its another one of those things the US goverment, payed for me to learn. you would be amazed at what you can make explosives from.
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Pentaerythritoltetranitrate ( PETN) can be made at home with chemicals that can be found in just about any chem lab.
you only need 6 things to make it
nitric acid
sulpheric acid
actone
Pentaerythritol
water
bicarb of soda
I'm sure a quick google search and you could get exact spects and proceedures.
Yeah its another one of those things the US goverment, payed for me to learn. you would be amazed at what you can make explosives from.
Who the hell names this stuff? Is it like some geek macho thing to see if you can actually pronounce it? I get the utility of putting the compound in the title but sheesh.
FQ13
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Who the hell names this stuff? Is it like some geek macho thing to see if you can actually prounce it? I get the utility of putting the compound in the title but sheesh.
FQ13
I just call it PETN. Chemistry is just like that.
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TAB wrote:
Pentaerythritoltetranitrate ( PETN) can be made at home with chemicals that can be found in just about any chem lab.
you only need 6 things to make it
nitric acid
sulpheric acid
actone
Pentaerythritol
water
bicarb of soda
The last I had heard was that google does keep track of which IP addresses are searching for whatever key words.
Just an FYI....
That bicarb of soda...MAN!...that is some handy stuff to keep around.... ;D
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One observation and one comment:
NBC news reported tonight that the terrorist used PETN, an explosive used by the military. Is this explosive used exclusively by the military or is it readily available in other forms? I think it is curious he had an explosive that is normally used by the military(ies) with him.
And what rights are we willing to give up now to be "secure"? Is it time for the mother of all "Patriot Acts"? In the same broadcast they mentioned the terrorist was on a "terrorist watch list", not the no-fly list. He was considered to very low level, but their assessment was wrong, I suppose.
I believe we will be told in the coming days that more screening and aggressive intelligence gathering techniques need to be authorized so they make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again. It's time to get rid of this police state that has been constructed over the past 70 years. It's time to get our freedoms back. The price we are paying is not worth it to me.
I for one Am not willing to give up any rights in the name of "nanny state" style safety. I understand that certin things pose risk and am willing to accept that risk for my freedoms. I understand that 1 in a million flights are subject to attempts at terrorism and accept te risk when I chose to fly. instead of giving 18 and 19 year old kids the job of bottlenecking me at a checkpoint and "looking for suspects without profileing anybody" let the people with cwp carry guns on flights and see how fast a hijacker ends up dead and the plane lands just fine. I accept the risk eveytime I get in a car and drive, every time I pick up a gun, evey time I put my boat in water and head to the middle of a river or lake, and every time I put a leg over my motorcycle and head out. I don't need a bunch of my freedoms revoked to protect me then and I don't need more freedom revoked to fly tolas vegas or to arizona either.
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Who the hell names this stuff? Is it like some geek macho thing to see if you can actually pronounce it? I get the utility of putting the compound in the title but sheesh.
FQ13
FQ, It's part of the security protocol, if you can't pronounce it you can't buy it ;D
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I for one Am not willing to give up any rights in the name of "nanny state" style safety. I understand that certin things pose risk and am willing to accept that risk for my freedoms. I understand that 1 in a million flights are subject to attempts at terrorism and accept te risk when I chose to fly. instead of giving 18 and 19 year old kids the job of bottlenecking me at a checkpoint and "looking for suspects without profileing anybody" let the people with cwp carry guns on flights and see how fast a hijacker ends up dead and the plane lands just fine. I accept the risk eveytime I get in a car and drive, every time I pick up a gun, evey time I put my boat in water and head to the middle of a river or lake, and every time I put a leg over my motorcycle and head out. I don't need a bunch of my freedoms revoked to protect me then and I don't need more freedom revoked to fly tolas vegas or to arizona either.
Amen!!
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What's unforgivable is that they were warned by his dad and let it happen. Couldn't an Air Marshall just happen to be in the seat next to him for the flight? TSA are control freaks, not security. they have failed every test. They cause delays.
Who did it, a passenger. When it comes down to taking care of the problem the average Joe is Johnny on the Spot.
I hope it wasn't just a laptop battery blowing up. Here come the 40 mega watt X-ray scanners. Take off shoes and garments please. From this point everyone will be nude for safety purposes, TSA Blankets are 20.00 extra. We know you have it because we checked your measly bank account for you. If you question this crap we will beat you up.
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What's unforgivable is that they were warned by his dad and let it happen. Couldn't an Air Marshall just happen to be in the seat next to him for the flight? TSA are control freaks, not security. they have failed every test. They cause delays.
Who did it, a passenger. When it comes down to taking care of the problem the average Joe is Johnny on the Spot.
I hope it wasn't just a laptop battery blowing up. Here come the 40 mega watt X-ray scanners. Take off shoes and garments please. From this point everyone will be nude for safety purposes, TSA Blankets are 20.00 extra. We know you have it because we checked your measly bank account for you. If you question this crap we will have Obama's union thug buddies beat you up.
Corrected for accuracy.
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Uh, guys, there was another "non-incident" today on the same Delta/NWA flight # from Holland to Detroit with yet another Nigerian who locked himself in the bathroom of the plane. Allegedly just a "sick" passenger who became belligerent on landing approach.
DHS tells us to pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581232,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581232,00.html)
FTA: "An FBI spokeswoman in Detroit said Sunday's incident turned out to be nothing serious.
"Today (Sunday) at Detroit Metro Airport, the Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) responded to a report from an incoming flight from Amsterdam where a passenger spent a lengthy time in the restroom. This raised concerns so an alert was raised. JTTF investigated and the investigation shows that this was a non-serious incident and all is clear at this point," the FBI spokeswoman told Fox News.
A law enforcement official said the man removed from a Sunday flight to Detroit posed no security risk to the plane."
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I'm glad I checked before I posted that.