The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: ericire12 on December 31, 2009, 06:15:20 PM
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Here is a fun read about open carry:
http://georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=40381
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Glad it worked out both ways, struggling for a gun in public would not be cool. Begs a lot of questions though. I'll hide and watch.
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Someone wrote a check they could not cash. Someone was prepared for the unexpected.
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Lets assume hat this story is true for a minute..
That Guy is in for a world of problems. Way better to let the rent a cop take it than assault him. It was not a life threatening situation so what is he point of risking an AD...
That being said... my gut feeling is that this story is a falsehood.
Just my 2 cents...
Scott
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Lets assume hat this story is true for a minute..
That Guy is in for a world of problems. Way better to let the rent a cop take it than assault him. It was not a life threatening situation so what is he point of risking an AD...
That being said... my gut feeling is that this story is a falsehood.
Just my 2 cents...
Scott
True.
Second Why is this guy laying hands on somebody.
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Lets assume hat this story is true for a minute..
That Guy is in for a world of problems. Way better to let the rent a cop take it than assault him. It was not a life threatening situation so what is he point of risking an AD...
That being said... my gut feeling is that this story is a falsehood.
Just my 2 cents...
Scott
Let's not only assume that it is true, but let's also assume that it is accurate ...
The guard did not identify or command. All the guard did was assault. Bad move by guard, and good reaction by carrier!
Beyond chance of ad in fight, I would be more concerned with ad by forced disarming.
Mall Ninja on a testosterone high has a couple parts in a vise and may find himself castrated.
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Some guard getting minimum wage isn't going to make a life threatening move without any regard to his personal safety.... No matter how "Mall Ninja" He may be..... If it was true... Seems like someone has read too many Mac Bollan books to me.... :D
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There has to be more too it then what was told in the story. Assuming its true... but I smell BS...
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Assuming that it may be true, the guard is lucky all he got was knocked out, instead of 2 to the chest. Just my thought.
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Don't assume its not true. I was a mall pig for a summer in college. (I wasn't permitted into the ninja order because it was just a summer job. I lacked the true dedication requird by a member of the order). Anyway, a lot of these guys are testatosterone crazed enough to try to diarm someone. Some are just folks looking to make some extra cash working an easy job. Others though have serious cop wanna be tendencies and those guys would do this.
FQ13
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I didn't read through all the pages of posting, but the poster Martha1 is from Savannah, GA. I went looking for a newspaper article or a police report to verify the story.
What's interesting is Savannah PD's web site.
http://www.savannahpd.org/ (http://www.savannahpd.org/)
Among interesting things are weekly crime stats and their "recovered gun list".
The gun list makes an interesting read. Obviously, there are probably typos and model names as opposed to manufacturers, but still some interesting entries.
.22 Gerster Berge
.42 Rock Island
10mm Wyoming
3 Winchester
There are probably some very valuable and historic guns that will never see the light of day again.
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Assuming this actually happened, there is something that was really never made clear in that thread that could have an impact on how things went down, at least in my opinion.
Was this an actual "Security Guard" or a "Loss Prevention Officer"? Security Guards are normally uniformed employees of an agency other than the retailer to whom they are assigned, and SHOULD have more thorough training than Loss Prevention Officers who are, as a rule, plain clothes store employees whose job is to look for shoplifters.
One might conclude that the reaction to a uniformed individual might be expected to be somewhat more restrained than the reaction to a non-uniformed person.
Bottom Line is this.....no matter what the security person's motivations, his tactics and execution sucked. I do have a certain amount of sympathy for him, however, since, in addition to his physical injuries and the medical bills arising from them, he is no doubt unemployed since his employer will drop him like a used Trojan just to cover their ass financially. On the other hand, stupidity is often painful, so.............................
For future reference for the security person:
1) No matter how scary the big, bad gun might look, so long as it remains holstered it is NOT a threat.
2) Keep the armed individual in sight while calling 911, and wait for the professionals to arrive and assess the situation.
3) Do not approach the individual or TAKE ANY PHYSICAL ACTION unless or until the weapon is drawn from it's holster. Then, and only then, can a REASONABLE person be expected to believe that the armed individual is up to no good.
YMMV
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Lets assume hat this story is true for a minute..
That Guy is in for a world of problems. Way better to let the rent a cop take it than assault him. It was not a life threatening situation so what is he point of risking an AD...
That being said... my gut feeling is that this story is a falsehood.
Just my 2 cents...
Scott
Your out of your mind, never let anyone except a sworn LEO ever touch your weapon. He did exactly what he should of. He also needs to press charges.
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Put me down on the side that believes this never actually happened -- I simply posted it here as something for us to talk about.
The only real thing I find that lends this whole story to being even remotely true is the fact that the forum member has a relatively high post count, although that does not confirm that he is not some stupid Internet Commando.
I think the whole thing is a little far fetched, and I also think that if this actually happened to someone that they probably would NOT run to the Internet and tell all about it...... especially if he is not out of the woods as far as possible charges are concern.... I also dont know if there is any lawyer out there who would after consultation say, "Sure, go ahead and talk about it online".
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Lets assume hat this story is true for a minute..
That Guy is in for a world of problems. Way better to let the rent a cop take it than assault him. It was not a life threatening situation so what is he point of risking an AD.........
It is clearly, in the states I have lived in, assault on the part of the MALL NINJA that grabbed the gun. The MALL NINJA committed assault. It is assault with intent for serious bodily harm from the perspective of the gun owner because he didn't know who or what was going for his gun. In my mind, grabbing the gun was adequete assessment for the owner to evaluate and react without further assessment for the full range of actions he took. He obviously reassessed the situation when the threat was eliminated because no shots were fired...good on the gunowner. Just because someone is wearing a monkey suit does not mean he isn't a baboon....i.e., without credentials there may be no foundation on which to judge if someone is what they say they are by speech or implication (uniform).
I seriously doubt that any corporate instruction says to grab someone's gun out of nowhere. However, I will say that I have told more than one MALL NINJA that I would whip his ass if he didn't leave me alone.
I will always attempt to protect my weapon; if for nothing else than to keep a BG from using it against me; which would also have been my evaluation had this happened to me.
If I have to choose the law (fear of being charged with assault) or choose to become mutton I will always choose to not be mutton and forget the implications of the law for my own or my family's well being. This concept is hard to get sometimes. I am not trying to disrespect your opinion, but as a lawabiding citizen you have determine and decide if there are times when the law should not apply and then train yourself mentally to be able to recognize those times.
God, family and everything else in that order.
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I think the whole thing is a little far fetched, and I also think that if this actually happened to someone that they probably would NOT run to the Internet and tell all about it...... especially if he is not out of the woods as far as possible charges are concern.... I also dont know if there is any lawyer out there who would after consultation say, "Sure, go ahead and talk about it online".
BINGO!
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If it did happen I say good on the Gun owner, and he should press charges for every offense his lawyer can justify, assault, and attempted theft are the only ones I can think of.
As to rushing home and posting on the internet, that's what FQ did when he avoided being robbed in Charleston, so don't say it doesn't happen, in fact Eric if I recall you posted in that thread so you know it happens.
I don't know any Mall cops but we have in the past discussed the fact that every profession has it's share of jerks so I have no trouble believing some Paul Blart wanna be would do something that dumb.
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As to rushing home and posting on the internet, that's what FQ did when he avoided being robbed in Charleston, so don't say it doesn't happen, in fact Eric if I recall you posted in that thread so you know it happens.
There was no LEO involvement with Quaker's incident either, and no chances of him facing charges.... Technically, nothing actually even went down.
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lets forget for the second that this most likly didn't happen/ went down diffrently then explained.
Why the hell would you post this on the internet?
Further more, any lawyer worth the ink on his biz card is going to tell you to not say a damn thing. why is he still posting, in a few of his posts he mentioned his lawyer. It was not until page 9 that he kept his mouth shut. I know the 1st words out of my lawyers mouth, will be "do not talk to anyone". it does not matter if I just got arrested for killing some one or I'm sueing/being sued.
its also intresting that I can't find any more info about this... other then sites that use that forum link as a refrence.
oh yeah, I'd love to see the CC video of all this. if this did infact happen, I'd bet there is alot more too this story.
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oh yeah, I'd love to see the CC video of all this.
Thats another good point... if this did happen, it would be on national news.... That walmart greeter that just got beat up was all over national news.... videos like this are great eye candy that stop people from channel surfing..... Thats the major criteria in any MSM news story now a days
*Real journalism is dead!
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I'm a little out of shape these days but even I could probably take the Walmart greeter! They are either about 30 years older and usually sleeping when I enter the store...
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I'm a little out of shape these days but even I could probably take the Walmart greeter! They are either about 30 years older and usually sleeping when I enter the store...
This guy was 69 and a retired Vietnam vet, and still in pretty good shape
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YouWrukzc0
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This guy was 69 and a retired Vietnam vet, and still in pretty good shape
I said probably. ;D
Besides, that Marine didn't get "beatdown", he stood his ground after being assaulted. Our resident Marine works in the sporting goods dept, great guy! They put grandma at the front door, almost never a guy!
As for journalism? It died before you were born Eric.
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There never was real Journalism, it's a myth, Hearst didn't invent "Yellow Journalism" just the term.
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This guy was 69 and a retired Vietnam vet, and still in pretty good shape
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YouWrukzc0
two great things about that.
1 since he is over 65 its a felony.
2 the alarm was false. ;D
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Thing like this happening is what make me uncomfortable with open carry. I much prefer CCW.
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Thing like this happening is what make me uncomfortable with open carry. I much prefer CCW.
But this is the only time anything like this has ever been heard of, and this doesn't even pass the smell test.
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I just don't like people I don't know, knowing that I'm armed! If I know you and trust you, I'm okay with that but the joe blow public I'm not.
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two great things about that.
1 since he is over 65 its a felony.
2 the alarm was false. ;D
Do really see an armed retired Marine being a cooperative "victim" of elder abuse? Sir, do to his advanced years this Marine could not grab that puke by the stack and swivel. This Marine was forced to kick the snot out the maggot and deploy his weapon. Sir! Not a prosecuters ideal weeping victim. ;D ;D ;D
FQ13
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Stacking swivel, FQ The forward sling swivel on the M-1 Garand had an opening that allowed 3 rifles to be locked together to create the tripod base of a :"Stand of arms"
Note, to grab some one by the stacking swivel is to grab them by the throat.
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Stacking swivel, FQ The forward sling swivel on the M-1 Garand had an opening that allowed 3 rifles to be locked together to create the tripod base of a :"Stand of arms"
Note, to grab some one by the stacking swivel is to grab them by the throat.
I know. I had an active duty Marine seargent major (who was going to UT part time for his BS) threaten to do that to one my TAs who not only did a piss poor job of grading his paper, but was disrespectful in his comments. Given that I couldn't stand the little non-English speaking turd myself, I merely informed him that if he killed my TA he would be grading blue books until I got a replacement. ;)
FQ13
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Always wondered about that phrase,....
Next week, we'll cover Boxing The Compass, Cannon Cocker, and Drawing a Dead Horse.... ::)
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(http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo283/tsbevins/stack10.jpg)
Hell, even a squid knows that one. We had to carry that thing in boot, every day and never got to shoot one! It goes back a bit farther than the Garand though....probably 1870's...
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Stacking swivel, FQ The forward sling swivel on the M-1 Garand had an opening that allowed 3 rifles to be locked together to create the tripod base of a :"Stand of arms"
Note, to grab some one by the stacking swivel is to grab them by the throat.
From FQ you want accuracy?
He's a college prof and can't spell worth a damn!
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From FQ you want accuracy?
He's a college prof and can't spell worth a damn!
Path
The Quote, and I remember it well as you would if you were trapped in a 10'x12' room with a highly (and justfiably, pissed Marine seargent major, think R. lee Ermy light) was " I will grab him by the stack and swivel". My interpretation was one hand on the throat (stack) and a sharp twist to the right, followed by an unpleasent cracking sound and one less English challenged Korean TA in the world {HooAhh}). Perhaps it was "grab him by the stacking swivel", but the point was the same and accurately reported.
FQ13 who has resolved to take fewer cheap shots this year, can you hear me Path?
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??? The nice thing about concealed carry is that it is concealed
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Boxing the compass is making 4 90 degree turns on equal length legs to see if you wind up where you started, if you don't you have problems.
Cannon cocker or gun bunny is an artilleryman ;D A Bat 3/197 FA NHARNG ;D
Got me on drawing a dead horse.
Actually the NICEST thing about concealed carry is that it puts the gun in places where it does not interfere with daily activities or get banged up , for example high on your belt or in your arm pit, tight to the body as opposed to lower down on the hip.
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Drawing a Dead Horse
From Terms Customs and Tradtions of the Naval Service:
Drawing a Dead Horse. A "dead horse" is advance payment of wages. In the British Merchant Service, approximately a months pay was advanced when a sailor shipped. A ceremony was held when the crew "stopped working for nothing," usually after about five weeks at sea. The men made a horse out of canvas stuffed with waste material or out of a cask. Permission was requested to light it and hoist it out to the end of a boom or yard. Cheers went up as it marked the time the crew started to accumulate wages "on the books."
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:XDpBYRZxXNAJ:www.jacksjoint.com/sailor_terminology.htm+drawing+a+dead+horse&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
FQ13
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I just don't like people I don't know, knowing that I'm armed! If I know you and trust you, I'm okay with that but the joe blow public I'm not.
I agree. If I had the option of open carry, I would still choose concealed carry. I believe it does give an advantage.
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To contradict my earlier post, access is easier with open carry, FQ, should be proud of me, because I don't give a crap if others know I'm armed I can argue this one either way.
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Path
The Quote, and I remember it well as you would if you were trapped in a 10'x12' room with a highly (and justfiably, pissed Marine seargent major, think R. lee Ermy light) was " I will grab him by the stack and swivel". My interpretation was one hand on the throat (stack) and a sharp twist to the right, followed by an unpleasent cracking sound and one less English challenged Korean TA in the world {HooAhh}). Perhaps it was "grab him by the stacking swivel", but the point was the same and accurately reported.
FQ13 who has resolved to take fewer cheap shots this year, can you hear me Path?
MUST NOT COMMENT...(Freud? Rastus? Protest too much?cough!).. NOT COMMENTING..NOT COMMENTING, NOT COMMENTING, NOT COMMENTING. ;D ;D ;D
FQ13, who ever said I didn't do a Christian brother a good deed? Just kidding Rastus ;)
Readers will kindly note the times of these two posts in light of the highlighted comment.
BTW - "HooAhh" is Army/Rangers, not USMC.
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Ooh-rah!
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Ooh-rah!
;D
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Just what he deserves, You defended yourself properly, having taught Kenpo for years that kick did it. He tried to assault you in a public place. He does not have the authority of a LEO, and you need to SUE the Big Box, the security company and all of them in civil court. Keep those round houses coming, and work those combinations, and put them on the mat. Make them follow proper legal procedure. www.theruleoflaw.com Get Randy!
This is the importance of knowing self defense, even without a gun, you are still deadly, Three strikes and they are out.
Should of called the police right then on him. The best survival tool is in between your ears.
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Just what he deserves, You defended yourself properly, having taught Kenpo for years that kick did it. He tried to assault you in a public place. He does not have the authority of a LEO, and you need to SUE the Big Box, the security company and all of them in civil court. Keep those round houses coming, and work those combinations, and put them on the mat. Make them follow proper legal procedure. www.theruleoflaw.com Get Randy!
This is the importance of knowing self defense, even without a gun, you are still deadly, Three strikes and they are out.
Should of called the police right then on him. The best survival tool is in between your ears.
Disagree on that last point woody. If there is a fight, particularly if you are carrying, and the opportunity to walk away presents itself, TAKE IT. grab it with both hands and don't let go. Even if this means you lose witnesses to a lawsuit or the chance to press charges, just walk away and go. If you want to pursue other remedies call a lawyer and let her deal wih it when you have a safe distance,and time for everyone to cool down and all the facts. If you call the police you are putting your life in the hands of a 20 year old patrolman and a 28 year old ADA. Thanks, but no thanks, I'll just be leaving now sir, and sorry about the teeth on the floor. 8)
FQ13
PS I speak from experience here. I wound up having to flash a gun at a couple of would be muggers. They took off, problem over. If I called the cops, they would want to know why I was carrying in a different state (even though it was legal),and may not have understood reciprocity and arrested me. If they did catch the guys, they would claim that I threatened them and made racial slurs, thus setting me up for a hate crime charge. I would have lost my gun, at least temporarily, and probably have had to hire a lawyer even though I was in the right. Given the chance to avoid the police, I'll take it.
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Disagree on that last point woody. If there is a fight, particularly if you are carrying, and the opportunity to walk away presents itself, TAKE IT. grab it with both hands and don't let go. Even if this means you lose witnesses to a lawsuit or the chance to press charges, just walk away and go. If you want to pursue other remedies call a lawyer and let her deal wih it when you have a safe distance,and time for everyone to cool down and all the facts. If you call the police you are putting your life in the hands of a 20 year old patrolman and a 28 year old ADA. Thanks, but no thanks, I'll just be leaving now sir, and sorry about the teeth on the floor. 8)
FQ13
PS I speak from experience here. I wound up having to flash a gun at a couple of would be muggers. They took off, problem over. If I called the cops, they would want to know why I was carrying in a different state (even though it was legal),and may not have understood reciprocity and arrested me. If they did catch the guys, they would claim that I threatened them and made racial slurs, thus setting me up for a hate crime charge. I would have lost my gun, at least temporarily, and probably have had to hire a lawyer even though I was in the right. Given the chance to avoid the police, I'll take it.
FQ, in your situation I completely agree. However, in the situation described there was physical contact. VIOLENT physical contact. Once that occurs you had damned well BETTER call the cops. Cuz if you don't, the asshat rent-a-cop will, and the only story they'll hear is that a guy with a gun kicked the crap out of him for no apparent reason and with NO provocation. MUCH better in that situation to get your side of the story on the record. Leaving before the cops show up only serves to make you look like the guilty party.
YMMV
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FQ, in your situation I completely agree. However, in the situation described there was physical contact. VIOLENT physical contact. Once that occurs you had damned well BETTER call the cops. Cuz if you don't, the asshat rent-a-cop will, and the only story they'll hear is that a guy with a gun kicked the crap out of him for no apparent reason and with NO provocation. MUCH better in that situation to get your side of the story on the record. Leaving before the cops show up only serves to make you look like the guilty party.
YMMV
It's also probably better if your the one who calls, your the victim not the aggressor! The 911 tape is better heard "I was attacked" than someone else calling to say "the guy with a gun kicked the crap out of him".
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This guy was 69 and a retired Vietnam vet, and still in pretty good shape
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YouWrukzc0
UPDATE: Wal-Mart greeter that got attacked got fired
http://www.wesh.com/news/22190479/detail.html
A Walmart greeter who was shown on video getting punched by a customer has been fired.
Ed Bauman, 69, said the act of defending himself cost him his job.
Bauman went into Walmart hoping to get back to work for the first time since police said he was punched by a customer. Instead, Bauman said he was fired. His termination notice called the incident an act of "gross misconduct" and accused Bauman of fighting with a customer.
"They told me I did a good job of defending myself," said Bauman. "Then they turned around and fired me. I guess they just wanted me to stand there and get beaten."
On Dec. 26, a customer in red shorts set off an alarm while leaving the store. Bauman followed the man to get his license number. The man got angry and took Bauman's clipboard. Bauman said he tried to get it back and leaned into the customer who took a swing. Bauman said he swung back in order to defend himself.
Police said Bauman acted within his rights and was not charged. The customer was charged with a felony. Video of the punch also drew a lot of attention on WESH and WESH.com.
Walmart representatives did not comment on the firing.
The customer also claimed to be acting in self-defense. He accused Bauman of using a slur against him.
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Since when does a slur require physical defense or retaliation? Even if a 'slur' was used clearly you can't physically hurt someone to protect yourself, what a dumbass for even saying as such. Hopefully in prison he can defend himself against hurtful words, but the majority of the prison population probably won't be 70.
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UPDATE: Wal-Mart greeter that got attacked got fired
http://www.wesh.com/news/22190479/detail.html
Wally World is trying to limit their litigational exposure.
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Wally World is trying to limit their litigational exposure.
Just another good reason not to shop at Wally World!!!!!!!!!!
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So the CWP carrier allowed his piece to print/show enough that a dimwitted Wally World leo-wannabe could determine what it was. Suggests to me that the CWP carrier was in violation of the "concealed" aspect of his license. None of this story sounds right. I think this is somebody's over-active imagination. Gun haters would have had a field day if this were true. Has anybody seen anything on the so-called News? I haven't...
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If it was real the MSNBC would have had a primetime 2 hours special.
This is a hoax.