The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: twyacht on January 18, 2010, 04:35:26 PM
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http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9DAAR3O2&show_article=1
Chicago man apparently killed by daughter's dogs
Jan 18 01:50 PM US/Eastern
CHICAGO (AP) - Chicago police are investigating the death of a 56-year-old man who was apparently fatally mauled by his daughter's pit bulls.
The daughter told authorities she came home Sunday night and found her father, Johnny Wilson, lying on the living room floor, covered in blood. The Cook County Medical Examiner's office said Wilson suffered numerous bite wounds on various parts of his body.
The daughter turned over four adult pit bulls and two puppies to Chicago Animal Care and Control, where the dogs were being evaluated.
Neighbors said there was no sign of dog fighting at the residence, and that Wilson had never seemed to have any problem with the dogs in the past.
No charges had been filed as of Monday morning.
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Information from: Chicago Tribune, http://www.chicagotribune.com
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Too bad Chicago banned carrying a firearm....
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As someone new to CCW, I would like to get opinions on the subject of how to handle 4 legged threats. If a dog is behaving in a threatening manner can you take a pre-emotive shot or do you actually need to wait to get bit before using a concealed weapon to defend yourself? Also, would it be advisable not to use a handgun if the owner is present but unable to control their animal? Obviously, if they attacked you would have no choice.
Again, you bring up an interesting topic and one I can hopefully learn from (which I seem to daily) from this forum. Thanks in advance!
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I've posted other incidents before, including the one where a lady was attacked and killed while "jogging" and when her husband came looking for here, the dogs killed him, too.
For one dog, my strategy, is to grab the collar (or enough of the neck) with my weak hand, so as to temporarily hold the dog at bay. Then reach for whatever weapon is handiest, (knife, gun, crow bar) and neutralize the threat. With guns you have to be careful about what's beyond the target, so a knife might be preferable in some cases.
For multiple animals, a gun is definitely preferable, and if possible should be used before they reach you.
This is exactly why I carry to get the mail, the morning paper and to walk my precious little "Michael the Wonder Dog", even in my own fenced-in back yard.
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I've posted other incidents before, including the one where a lady was attacked and killed while "jogging" and when her husband came looking for here, the dogs killed him, too.
For one dog, my strategy, is to grab the collar (or enough of the neck) with my weak hand, so as to temporarily hold the dog at bay. Then reach for whatever weapon is handiest, (knife, gun, crow bar) and neutralize the threat. With guns you have to be careful about what's beyond the target, so a knife might be preferable in some cases.
For multiple animals, a gun is definitely preferable, and if possible should be used before they reach you.
This is exactly why I carry to get the mail, the morning paper and to walk my precious little "Michael the Wonder Dog", even in my own fenced-in back yard.
I agree wholeheartedley. As for when to shoot, I, for one, am NOT waiting for some drooling 150 pound chomping machine to use my ass for a chew toy before I neutralize the threat.
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I too have posted my personal attack by 2 dogs, not even considered "vicious" breeds, but large none the less. I carry a Kershaw pocket knife for a multitude of reasons, but was thankful I had it when they attacked. The little ankle biting "Toto's" are
usually are more bark than bite, but can usually be dealt with by a swift kick. Kinda like trying to make a 40yd Field Goal....Or just scruff them and throw them across the street, room, what have you,...
Big dogs however, regardless of breed, especially on the street/hiking trail/backroads,etc,.. in "pack" mode, or in a poorly fenced in yard in uber "protection/attack" mode, are a lethal threat.
Regardless, if the owner is there, and can't control them, you will have about 2-3 seconds to make your decision, the dog(s) if in "attack" mode will usually make the decision for you. They size you up, and instinct takes over almost instantly.
Two things will happen if you stand your ground, as running just triggers the "chase" response.
1: They will bark, lower their tail, and not attack.
2: They won't bark, growl in a low pitch, face you head on and charge.
At that point it's game over, you defend yourself, as Alf posted with any means you have. Knife, pistol, gouge eyeballs, death grip on throat, rip testicles, whatever it takes. The initial attack by a big dog is to get you down and go for your face and throat, and it is blindingly fast and ruthless, defensive bites come from reflexively putting your hands, arms in front of your face. The dogs "fight/attack" response is balls to the wall, full tilt, 110% attack. There is no "moderate" dog attack.
If there is more than one dog getting ready to attack you, and I was legally carrying, I would not hesitate,.... shoot em'. I'll apologize to my daughter, owner, whoever, but I won't go down without a fight, whether their on 4 legs, or 2.
Good question, and of course, my humble opinion.
This response is not PETA approved.
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Poor Victim was probably scared of those dogs in the first place. Which don't help matters. As far as kicking at a dog, sometimes the dog is too fast and can dodge you. (My cousin's dog was when he was trying to bite me. NO I didnt shoot. was caryin a .22 rifle, but had plinked away all my ammo... had a knife, but my cousin was nearby, and I didnt want to kill that dog in front of her and her kids..... They ARE family after all.) In a lot of cases the big dogs can have their minds changed with a swift kick too. I've heard the advice to "Feed him your weak arm, and grab him by the throat with your strong." Whether I'd want to try it, I don't think so.
I'd hate to shoot a dog..... usually get along better with dogs than with people anymore....
I once had to pull a 1 & 1/2 or 2 year old German shepherd off of a 9 month old puppy by the scruff of his neck....
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Its Chicago.... he couldnt carry anyway
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I'm with the feed him your weak arm school. You try to grab a 60 pound plus dog byt the collar while he's coming at you and you'll lose. Hell, I sometimes miss when I try to grab my dogs collar when shes hell bent on getting out the door after a cat or possum. Dogs are fast. Stick an arm in their face and they'll bite, hopefully giving you the chance to press the muzzle against their chest and fire. Frankly, people are stupid about dogs. I have a friend of my dads who has a pit that scares te crap out of me. Its aggressive and skittish and the same time, the worst combination. His son foisted it off on him. If it were me I'd have had it put down. Every time I visit, I have no idea if its going to piddle or take a bite out of me. Friend or no, I will shoot it if its more threatening than usual. You can always buy someone a new dog.
FQ13 who will make sure his very well mannered pooch doesn't read this post ;D
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I don't remember who the post was from but he described how when he was attacked by a neighbors Staffordshire aka Pit Bull Terrier, he was able to get a shot off but the hollowpoint went right through the animal. As others have posted, be very carefull if you have to commit to a shot. One, because the body cavity of even a large dog at close range may not have enough density to expand the round and two, you're responsible for that bullet wherever it ends up...
I'll take the bite and make sure my target is busy while I first try and cut it's throat. Firing my CCW in a residential area is something that is an absolute last resort and it had better be within bad breath range to ensure a good hit...
.20 with inflation.....
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As stated CCW is not legal in Chicago. In other areas where legal you need to check what action is allowed. If I was faced with the possibility of facing dogs (wild or otherwise) I would probably carry shotshells in 2 of the chambers of a revo and something more potent after that plus SL or speed strip reloads.
JMHO
Richard
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(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/image2970.jpg)
Any questions on shooting it?
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(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/image2970.jpg)
Any questions on shooting it?
Which one?
;D
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Which one?
;D
Dammit...beat me to it..... ;D ;D ;D
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(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/image2970.jpg)
Any questions on shooting it?
NO SHOOT.... On a leash, obviously well anchored the way he's pulling......
<===== Has been around that type of training before..... ;D
<===== Isn't scared of dogs, because he lives with the big bad wolf, and can control him. ;D
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Suddenly my Kel-Tec .380 feels so "weak".....
:-[
Against either threat..... :-\
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Not afraid of dogs.....just their teeth. .....and the fact that I don't know what they intend to do with them.
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(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/image2970.jpg)
Any questions on shooting it?
Yeah, I'm going to need a bigger gun. Just when I was getting comfortable with Lil Elsie! ;D
That "dog" (?) may be tethered but all of a sudden that little strip of nylon looks awful thin.
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In NH if it bites you you are OK to shoot it even if the Owner is holding the leash, Depending on the circumstances you might even be OK shooting the owner.
In the woods if you see a dog in the act of chasing deer you are SUPPOSED to shoot it.
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(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/image2970.jpg)
Any questions on shooting it?
DAMN!! That makes me wanna trade my 9mm for a .45.....................or bigger!!
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The 9 MM might work.... dogs learn quicker than humans..... ;D
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DAMN!! That makes me wanna trade my 9mm for a .45.....................or bigger!!
I know what you mean.
The dog is scary too.
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It's been said already, but I am not going to sacrifice an arm, a leg, or any other body part in an attempt to control a vicious dog by collar or throat. I am going for multiple shots to center mass with .40 S&W Gold Dots. I am going to try and preserve the head because that will be needed to determine rabies infection and IF I am going to need a series of shots. I love my dog in particular and most dogs in general, but I have a greater fondness for my own intact hide.
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I think people are a little off when they talk about "feeding the dog an arm". The object isn't to let the dog chew on your arm for a while so you can grab it.
I was watching something, somewhere (can't remember exactly) the "expert" said to jam your arm down the dogs throat as far as you can. Once you get so far the dog loses the ability to bite. The same affect can be had by grabbing hold of the bottom jaw.
He didn't say it would be easy. ;)
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I know what you mean.
The dog is scary too.
My point exactly!! ;D
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This thread is absolutely incomplete without watching this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGUyMFPJRnU
Both telling and slightly comical...
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I have drawn down on a running dog in a park before. So far every charging, or appearing to charge, dog has responded to the solid, aggressive stance and the loud "no, stop" command. However, if you think a person can cover ten feet in a hurry, that is nothing compared to an animal. Once a dog is on you is no time to try and draw. They break my "circle of safety" or get into "my space" the gun is out and ready.
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I think people are a little off when they talk about "feeding the dog an arm". The object isn't to let the dog chew on your arm for a while so you can grab it.
I was watching something, somewhere (can't remember exactly) the "expert" said to jam your arm down the dogs throat as far as you can. Once you get so far the dog loses the ability to bite. The same affect can be had by grabbing hold of the bottom jaw.
He didn't say it would be easy. ;)
I have been told that also by dog trainers.
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I think people are a little off when they talk about "feeding the dog an arm". The object isn't to let the dog chew on your arm for a while so you can grab it.
I was watching something, somewhere (can't remember exactly) the "expert" said to jam your arm down the dogs throat as far as you can. Once you get so far the dog loses the ability to bite. The same affect can be had by grabbing hold of the bottom jaw.
He didn't say it would be easy. ;)
The movie Snow Dogs also had advice that you should bite the ear of the alpha dog. Everyone said do it. However, when the greenhorn did it they all said "They say do it, but no one ever does!"
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In "Never Cry Wolf" Farley Mowatt made the point to BE the Alpha dog .
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In testing my theory that animals can "sense" a person's emotional state (another animal's actually, and probably by smell) I went to visit a friend.
This friend told me her family dog was aggressive to strangers and to be alarmed when it charged at me barking.
Well, I've dealt with many aggressive dogs and have found a Commanding Nature will usually stop them.
In this case, I decided to go and try to present a neutral to pleased attitude.
The dog was a black Lab and did charge at me barking as I got out of the car.
I smiled at the dog and projected welcoming thoughts and feelings.
Well, this dog stopped dead in it's tracks, put it's tail between it's legs and ran back into the house.
While I was in the house the dog would slink away from me whenever I entered the room it was in.
The reaction was WAY more submissive than if I had just aggressively told it NO.
All I can figure is that by making it feel I welcomed it to come near me that I was looking for a snack.
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Smiling at a dog is actually a very aggressive thing to do. Showing the teeth to almost any animal is aggressive. You probably just cowed it with that move. Odd, though that is all it took.
As a student of anthropology, some of the school work had to do with behavioral studies of primates - monkeys and apes in particular. Based on what I had learned, I went to the Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago, and went to the ape house. In one cage of baboons, I looked down, glanced at the apes out of the corner of my eye, and in general acted submissive. No reaction.
Another cage of baboons who were just calmly sitting there, I stared at one male, very obviously, and within a few seconds he went through all of the textbook stages - started pacing, then started eyelid flipping. started grimacing and showing his teeth, finally got so worked up he started hooting which set the others off. Kinda cool to do that.
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Got the purple milk bone award at work and I will not do that again. Got bit in the a@@. Dog tried to bite my crotch region and I punched the mutt in the nose but it made him run around to my a@@ and clamp down. He shook me twice and ran away before I could get my duty weapon out. 17 puncture wounds. The pain was overwhelming, like sticking you a@@ in a vise. I was going to shoot the mutt but my a@@ cheek was in its mouth. Smith and wesson .357 hitting that dog in the head in a trailer with my a@@ cheek in its mouth, probably not a good thing. Luckly he ran off and, I told the owner that she would be talking to the dog warden. I do not handle dog calls anymore.
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Back in the 70's my dad had a 104 lb German Shepherd who bit my grandmother on her ass. She came up and hugged my dad and Choddo bit her.
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>:( WE HAVE LOST TWO FAMILY DOGS(WORTH AT LEAST $2,000.00) TO PIT BULLS. THE FIRST ONE I WAS OUT OF TOWN WORKING & GOT HOME TO SOME UPSET PEOPLE. I TOOK THE DOG TO THE VET BUT IT WAS TO LATE. THE PIT BULLS HAD BROKE IT'S SPINAL CORD. THE SECOND TIME HAPPENED IT MY FRONT PORCH. TWO PIT BULLS SOMEHOW SLIPPED UNDER THE GATE & ATTACKED OUR SHIH-TSU. I HAD JUST GOTTEN OUT OF THE SHOWER & HEARD OUR DOG BARKING LIKE CRAZY WHICH WAS VERY UNLIKE HIM. SO GRABBED THE FIRST GUN OUT OF THE CORNER(SINGLE-SHOT 12 GA. LOADED W/BIRDSHOT AFTER WATCHING BEST DEFENSE) & OPENED THE DOOR. THERE WERE THE TWO PIT BULLS ATTACKING OUR DOG & WHEN I YELLED AT THEM, ONE OF THEM RUSHED ME! NEEDLESS TO SAY, THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE DOG BURIED THAT EVENING.
SO ANYONE THAT SAYS THAT PITS, ROTTS, DOBERMANS, BULLDOGS, ETC. ARE NOT DANGEROUS, I CAN SHOW'EM A PET CEMETARY TO THE CONTRARY!!
THE BIRDSHOT WAS VERY EFFECTIVE IN THIS CASE.
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Tragic story Pablo, glad you protected yourself. Sorry for the loss of your dogs. Any medium/large breed can be dangerous, if allowed to.
I was attacked by none of the breeds you listed. Irish Setter mix, and a Lab mix. Had a Doberman, and it was raised and trained in a loving family environment. My little sister used to hang, pull, lay on, and otherwise harass a Warlock 125lb Doberman, that saved her life, and had absolute unconditional love for our family.
Any dog can go "bad".
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I found this while watching the dog attack video and thought it was funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPENzKOmOl0&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPENzKOmOl0&NR=1)
As for the issue at hand, I've had personal experience with the grabbing of the bottom jaw. Granted it was a mostly non aggressive puppy, but once I had grabbed the lower jaw, he half-yelped and tried to pull away. Now this is not a scientific study by any stretch of the imagination.
As for pulling a CCW gun. If you did watch the video that was offered earlier, you will notice that there would have been a downward trajectory for any bullet fired. This doesn't take into account for possible ricochets, but, again, downward.
This was also a LEO so he had open carry options. If drawing from CC you would need to be both more aware of your situation than the average bear and quick like bunny.
If I was in the situation I would think I would shoot, but in flash situations like this, you would react, not think. I would have to tend to think it works on the the firstest with the mostest concept. It works in everything from gun fights to thermo-nuclear war. Just to throw another adage on the campfire, its always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Bang! Dead dog.
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Carrying at home should also cut down on the excessive nagging as well ;D
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Condolences Pablo. In this subdivision out in the sticks that I live in some people down the road had a pit bull...it made the mistake of running up to my porch steps and growling at me.
People can talk that Dog Whisperer stuff all they want...I dunno, I don't care, if a dog is a threat to life and limb it's not my responsiblity to train the dog it's my responsibility to take care of my family and myself.
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Carrying at home should also cut down on the excessive nagging as well ;D
If not, there's always divorce. ;D
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Condolences Pablo. In this subdivision out in the sticks that I live in some people down the road had a pit bull...it made the mistake of running up to my porch steps and growling at me.
People can talk that Dog Whisperer stuff all they want...I dunno, I don't care, if a dog is a threat to life and limb it's not my responsiblity to train the dog it's my responsibility to take care of my family and myself.
+1
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Carrying at home should also cut down on the excessive nagging as well ;D
Depends if she is of the same mind. Then it might be the OK Corral 21st Century style...
Tom, you still single...
;D
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Carrying at home should also cut down on the excessive nagging as well ;D
Depends if she is of the same mind. Then it might be the OK Corral 21st Century style...
Tom, you still single...
;D
My wife can shoot! ...... And she has threatened to shoot me in the balls seveal times....... Do they make kevlar Jock Straps?
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My wife can shoot! ...... And she has threatened to shoot me in the balls seveal times....... Do they make kevlar Jock Straps?
Yep.....MB had one on on the last episode of SG.............
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This thread is absolutely incomplete without watching this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGUyMFPJRnU
Both telling and slightly comical...
That was a nice method of defending against an attack...... I would also add that a good old fashioned pistol whipping might do the job
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Depends if she is of the same mind. Then it might be the OK Corral 21st Century style...
Tom, you still single...
;D
How'd you guess ;D
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If its a dog, when in doubt, shoot. I'll buy them a new one. If it goes to court just be sure your lawyer gets an equal mix of trailer park rednecks and African Americans on the jury and you are home free. Its the yuppie PETA types you have to worry about (when isn't that the case)?. ;D
FQ13
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The movie Snow Dogs also had advice that you should bite the ear of the alpha dog. Everyone said do it. However, when the greenhorn did it they all said "They say do it, but no one ever does!"
I have actually done this with every pup I've ever owned (gently) combined with a growl. Likewise, I have also put my hand on their necks and held them on the floor for a few seconds when they exhibited dominant behavior like nipping or pacing, again gently, and for a 5 count max, with no commands or scolding, just till they stop squirming. It doesn't make them more easily house broken or stop eating the quail they are supposed to be retrieving, but I have never once been snarled at or bitten, even if I were taking what they considered food (the aforementioned quail or a a half rotted possum from their mouths). Its just letting them know who is Alpha in terms they understand. Dogs are pack animals and the occasional show of dominance combined with affection goes a long way. It may have been efffective, or it may have gotten me a mouthful of puppy ear for no good reason, but I can't argue about the results.
FQ13 who is no dog whisperer, but has had some pretty good dogs over the years.
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I have actually done this with every pup I've ever owned (gently) combined with a growl. Likewise, I have also put my hand on their necks and held them on the floor for a few seconds when they exhibited dominant behavior like nipping or pacing, again gently, and for a 5 count max, with no commands or scolding, just till they stop squirming. It doesn't make them more easily house broken or stop eating the quail they are supposed to be retrieving, but I have never once been snarled at or bitten, even if I were taking what they considered food (the aforementioned quail or a a half rotted possum from their mouths). Its just letting them know who is Alpha in terms they understand. Dogs are pack animals and the occasional show of dominance combined with affection goes a long way. It may have been efffective, or it may have gotten me a mouthful of puppy ear for no good reason, but I can't argue about the results.
FQ13 who is no dog whisperer, but has had some pretty good dogs over the years.
First time I can find nothing to disagree on with FQ. Everything stated sounds like Puppy Gospel and I have followed a similar path with my dogs.
Submitted by Crusader Rabbit and his near perfect 80-pound pooch, Chuey.
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I have actually done this with every pup I've ever owned (gently) combined with a growl. Likewise, I have also put my hand on their necks and held them on the floor for a few seconds when they exhibited dominant behavior like nipping or pacing, again gently, and for a 5 count max, with no commands or scolding, just till they stop squirming. It doesn't make them more easily house broken or stop eating the quail they are supposed to be retrieving, but I have never once been snarled at or bitten, even if I were taking what they considered food (the aforementioned quail or a a half rotted possum from their mouths). Its just letting them know who is Alpha in terms they understand. Dogs are pack animals and the occasional show of dominance combined with affection goes a long way. It may have been efffective, or it may have gotten me a mouthful of puppy ear for no good reason, but I can't argue about the results.
FQ13 who is no dog whisperer, but has had some pretty good dogs over the years.
+1
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I have actually done this with every pup I've ever owned (gently) combined with a growl. Likewise, I have also put my hand on their necks and held them on the floor for a few seconds when they exhibited dominant behavior like nipping or pacing, again gently, and for a 5 count max, with no commands or scolding, just till they stop squirming. It doesn't make them more easily house broken or stop eating the quail they are supposed to be retrieving, but I have never once been snarled at or bitten, even if I were taking what they considered food (the aforementioned quail or a a half rotted possum from their mouths). Its just letting them know who is Alpha in terms they understand. Dogs are pack animals and the occasional show of dominance combined with affection goes a long way. It may have been efffective, or it may have gotten me a mouthful of puppy ear for no good reason, but I can't argue about the results.
FQ13 who is no dog whisperer, but has had some pretty good dogs over the years.
+1 FQ...and I do a little "Dog Whispering" too. And I am a Renown Goose Whisperer to many in the area =))
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I have actually done this with every pup I've ever owned (gently) combined with a growl. Likewise, I have also put my hand on their necks and held them on the floor for a few seconds when they exhibited dominant behavior like nipping or pacing, again gently, and for a 5 count max, with no commands or scolding, just till they stop squirming. It doesn't make them more easily house broken or stop eating the quail they are supposed to be retrieving, but I have never once been snarled at or bitten, even if I were taking what they considered food (the aforementioned quail or a a half rotted possum from their mouths). Its just letting them know who is Alpha in terms they understand. Dogs are pack animals and the occasional show of dominance combined with affection goes a long way. It may have been efffective, or it may have gotten me a mouthful of puppy ear for no good reason, but I can't argue about the results.
FQ13 who is no dog whisperer, but has had some pretty good dogs over the years.
A thumbnail can work just as well, and ya don't have to spit out dog hair. This is a useful method when the dog doesn't want to let go of something as well. Also works on some unruly children. ;D (Kidding. Children are too heardheaded for this to work. ;D )