The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: tombogan03884 on March 23, 2010, 02:45:10 AM
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I ordered
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/zoom/zoompop.asp?i=120853_ts.JPG&h=&w=&bgc=&ui=&mc=&cf=&nv=&c=&adid=359280
I've already changed the stock from the wood that looks nice, to a Top folding /pistolgrip, but it is also to long for me, especially in a winter coat, Since getting my AR I realized that the Carbine style stock would be perfect.
What I want to ask about is the recoil reduction.
What can I expect in reduction ? A 14 year old kid can handle it ? His 4 year old sister ?
I should have it in a week or so, I'll post Pic's
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Please do. I was curious about these as well. Not for "tacticool" purposes, but for compact stoage for throwing behind the back seat of the truck or under the hatch in a boat. My two big concerns are recoil (particularly with buck and slugs) If the stock keeps this manageble, as advertised, that's a huge plus. The other issue, and its just a judgement call, is that you lose the ability to use the weapon sans ammo. A shotgun with a conventional stock is great for butt strokes etc. A collapsible one, not so much. I think the short profile for storage and in the house stuff is worth it with the AR and should be with the shotty as well, but I do look forward to a range report.
FQ13.
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I did get one a while back. I had fired a magnum slug load that damn near knocked me off the porch steps. The stock should eliminate that measure of force applied.
I guess all I have to do now is to put it on the shotty . . . . ::)
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I understand their usefulness, but to me those things only look good on AR-15's. Bill T.
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I have installed them on an 870 and a 590.
On both they do a good job of recoil reduction.
I'm a big guy and used to handling 3" Mag recoil, but what I noticed was the muzzle jump is very much reduced more than I noticed the recoil reduction. However, after a few 7 round magazines full of shooting, neither gun produced shoulder soreness. (no padding used. just a shirt)
A guess would be close to 40% recoil reduction. Still not something for a 4 year old to stand behind, but a 14 year old using a good lean in stance and knowing how to roll a bit with it might do ok. Get him a padded shooting jacket to be sure.
The 590 also had the Vang comp. and choke mod.
One point, I had to remove it from the 590 because it made the tang safety and bolt release a real pain to use on the 590
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Definately post pics!!! I am looking to put one of these on my 870 as well. Right now I have the pistol grip speed feed stock and the length of pull is WAY too long.
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Tom,
I put a Knox stock on my 870PD. I was not so much worried about recoil reduction as I was being able to shorten the length of pull (LOP) on the shotgun. I have some folks who wanted to shoot a shotgun but the stock was too long. They wiould have gotten beat up by the recoil even with light bird shot. By adjusting the LOP to the shooter it made the whole thing more enjoyable.
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I'm waiting for a sunny day when I am off to take pictures.
The length of pull is great now but I have not had a chance to shoot it yet.
One thing, It came with a matching fore end but it seems that over the years Mossberg has used several different tubes on the 500 and mine did not fit the fore end so I will just continue to use the original wood one.
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I have one on a Mossy (top one in the picture below). Good job of recoil reduction, changes the LOP to suit the shooter. Only thing I don't like on the Mossbergs is that pistol grip stocks make it difficult to reach the tang safety and the bolt release.
(http://i39.tinypic.com/10sbzbc.jpg)
Shotguns I
Mossberg 500, 12 ga
Mossberg 500, 12 ga
Remington 870 Express, 20 ga
Remington 870, 12 ga
Remington 1100, 12 ga
Lanber 2097, 12 ga
Fausti Elegance, 20 ga
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I have one that I haven't shot as well. My understanding is that is that it both reduces recoil and holds down the muzzle flip. If you look at how the stock is designed, the receiver travels up a wedge on the stock dampened by two internal springs. This would do both mentioned above.
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I have one on an 870 and I have noticed that the recoil is more managable. 14 year old yes 4 year old no.
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We had a student go through our Tactical Shotgun course about a week ago with one of these mounted on his Winchester 1300 and he swore it was the best thing since 00 buck. He fired quite a bit of #7 shot but he did do about 40 double ought and about half of that many slugs. Said he could have gone on for more if time were permitting.
I did not get a chance to shoot it, but then I prefer a standard stock to the pistol grip. He also modified the slide release to be actuated with his trigger finger, mounted it to the side of the action. That looked interesting to me but I am not sure it would have stood up to any sort of operational or field work. He is an attorney and I don't expect him to be going operational any time soon...
edited to add -
I also did not like the rounds stored on the off hand side of the stock either. It made off side shooting very uncomfortable for him, but he left them there so... To each his own. We teach "A way" not "The way."
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Trident
Where else are you going to keep your extra rounds, if not on the off side of the stock? I guess one coud use a bandolieer sling, but that seems slower to reload from than a side saddle. On my current standard stocked Maverick/Mossy, I use an elastic nylon side saddle. Its not to save money either. If I need to go off hand, for reasons of injury I can just rotate it to the other side and draw from the bottom, (though honestly, unlike Hollywood, if you shoot me in the right arm, I'm probably done unless the adreneline fairy is feeling particularly kind). Still, unlike a rigid side saddle, the nylon is just uncomfortable, noty painful, if I have to shoot off handed, like say around a corner. About 15 years ago I had, and stupidly sold, a Mossy 590 with the shell holders in the stock. Ideal in theory, but I still found it slower to reload than the side saddle. Thoughts?
FQ13 who is always willing to listen to those who do this for a living.
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FQ I use the same nylon side saddle also at home. At work I put the rounds in my back pocket.
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FQ I use the same nylon side saddle also at home. At work I put the rounds in my back pocket.
And here I am taking my wallet out of my back pocket if I'm going to be in the car for any length of time. ;D. Why not use the side saddle at work? A department reg, or a tactical reason?
FQ13
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I am not paying for equipment that they should provide for me.
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I am not paying for equipment that they should provide for me.
I agree in theory, but that side saddle cost me $12 at Gander. I'd sure hate to get shot while litterally grabbing my ass to make that point. Frankly, my POV is that for a cop or soldier, I'll take what they give me if it works. But anything I can find and that they will let me get away with carrying/wearing that works better? I'm on it. I came to this conclusion when I was in Army ROTC in college. I worked at a very high end out fitter (North Face, Marmot, Vasque, Gregory, Patagonia etc.). They practically gave their gear away to us. The employee discount was 20% BELOW wholesale on what the companies called the "pro-plan'. It was the same deal athletes, ski patrol members etc. got because they wanted us all to tell the customers how much we loved their stuff. Basically, I could buy top of the line gear for pennies on the dollar (though I was making a whole $5.50 an hour and spending more than I should have at the company store, but hey, nothing is free). ;) Still, it used to chap my ass when I went on an FTX and got blisters from ill fitting boots, an Alice pack, which must have been designed by Jane Fonda, a leaky poncho and a "shelter half", that, just as advertised, was a half assed tent even when assembled. I won't even talk about the MRE's. All of this when, if they just let me equip myself, at my own expense thank you very much, just like in the days of the Colonial miltias, I would have been warm, dry and blister free. At zero expense to the taxpayer. Hell, I'd have paid for the priviledge, as long as I could shove that Alice pack up someone's ass. (sorry, I have bony shoulders and hips, and unless you've carried one you won't understand. Just understand that my cohort called it the Fonda pack for a reason). So if it were me Bulldog, and it were my ass on the line 5 days a week, I'd leave as much of the issue gear as I could at home and bring the best I could afford to work. After all, its your ass, not theirs, that's on the line. Money be damned. Just my .02.
FQ13 who wants you to stay safe
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I have outfitted a lot of crap that I probally could not afford but went ahead and bought it. Yes I bought a bug out bag and through the alice pack in the back of the closet. They are about as a pain in the arse as Hanoi jane. The nice bug out bag is worth its weight in gold. The thing that gets me about young soldiers is they will pay 150 dollars for sunglasses but will complain and refuse to go buy a good pair of boots. Let me tell you that I prefer my feet to be comfortable with good boots and a cheap pair of sunglasses. Had a soldier the first time I was deployed have a foot problem. I made him go get white socks and a good pair of boots. In a week he had no more foot problems.
http://bugoutgear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1
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I have outfitted a lot of crap that I probally could not afford but went ahead and bought it. Yes I bought a bug out bag and through the alice pack in the back of the closet. They are about as a pain in the arse as Hanoi jane. The nice bug out bag is worth its weight in gold. The thing that gets me about young soldiers is they will pay 150 dollars for sunglasses but will complain and refuse to go buy a good pair of boots. Let me tell you that I prefer my feet to be comfortable with good boots and a cheap pair of sunglasses. Had a soldier the first time I was deployed have a foot problem. I made him go get white socks and a good pair of boots. In a week he had no more foot problems.
http://bugoutgear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1
Amen on ther boots brother. If you have to go with issue, get the jump boots. The other key is liner socks. Screw the cost. Buy Patagonia capilene. About ten bucks a pair. Buy twelve and quit whining. Having them between your feet and your outer sock means that you will almost never get a blister, even if you're feet are wet. They are worth their weight in gold.
FQ13 who understands that its the very small things, like deet, toliet paper, sunscreen, good footwear, a decent hat and a few energy bars, that make the difference between being miserable and having an ok time of things.
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Screw the toilet paper I go with the baby wipes. Another thing is the gloves. I went out and bought a decent pair for 10 bucks and they were way more comfortable than those oversized leather ones you are issued. Good socks are a god send. Especially during the 12 mile and longer road marches. I always carry mole skin but since I changed to a bug out bag, and better boots I have not had to use it. Chap stick is a blessing also. Knee and elbow pads are great too.
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I agree in theory, but that side saddle cost me $12 at Gander. I'd sure hate to get shot while litterally grabbing my ass to make that point. Frankly, my POV is that for a cop or soldier, I'll take what they give me if it works. But anything I can find and that they will let me get away with carrying/wearing that works better? I'm on it. I came to this conclusion when I was in Army ROTC in college. I worked at a very high end out fitter (North Face, Marmot, Vasque, Gregory, Patagonia etc.). They practically gave their gear away to us. The employee discount was 20% BELOW wholesale on what the companies called the "pro-plan'. It was the same deal athletes, ski patrol members etc. got because they wanted us all to tell the customers how much we loved their stuff. Basically, I could buy top of the line gear for pennies on the dollar (though I was making a whole $5.50 an hour and spending more than I should have at the company store, but hey, nothing is free). ;) Still, it used to chap my ass when I went on an FTX and got blisters from ill fitting boots, an Alice pack, which must have been designed by Jane Fonda, a leaky poncho and a "shelter half", that, just as advertised, was a half assed tent even when assembled. I won't even talk about the MRE's. All of this when, if they just let me equip myself, at my own expense thank you very much, just like in the days of the Colonial miltias, I would have been warm, dry and blister free. At zero expense to the taxpayer. Hell, I'd have paid for the priviledge, as long as I could shove that Alice pack up someone's ass. (sorry, I have bony shoulders and hips, and unless you've carried one you won't understand. Just understand that my cohort called it the Fonda pack for a reason). So if it were me Bulldog, and it were my ass on the line 5 days a week, I'd leave as much of the issue gear as I could at home and bring the best I could afford to work. After all, its your ass, not theirs, that's on the line. Money be damned. Just my .02.
FQ13 who wants you to stay safe
Agree with most of it but you obviously never ate C Rations if you can complain about MRE's ;D
ALICE Packs are the ruck from HELL ;D
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ALICE Packs are the ruck from HELL ;D
Agreed. The theory of the "Fonda Pack" is sound in terms of modularity, durability, etc. But did anyone listen to the PFCs that tested the thing? And why were our soldiers 4 generations behind what yuppies took on a three day hike in the Blue Ridge? I mean my Gregory pack, 15 years old, and outdated as it is, will still carry 60 pounds as comfortably as 60 pounds can be carried. No nifty camel back or molle system, but still darn good at distributing weight and it "gasps" has padding. The Alice pack, none of the above. Better than a wood and canvas packboard, but honestly, it doesn't seem too much to ask that we give the grunts decent gear if we can put a man on the moon or pay for a nuclear sub. Sad thing is, the contractors and their lobbyists always get money for the Tom Swift, Acme Mach III Whackinator. That's all good and maybe we need the Whackinator. Still, they tend to forget that we don't own a piece of ground till a US Soldier or Marine has pissed on it, and the guys and gals in the green suits and the rifles ought to get first dibs on the budget. Just sayin'.
FQ13