The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: ericire12 on April 19, 2010, 11:50:27 AM
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Its a gorgeous rendition of a traditional G.I. version. They are calling it model "R1"
MSRP $699
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They can't call it the "R1", they already have that. ;D
-Bidah
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I've said it before and I'll say it again,"Will someone PLEASE come up with something new"? Even if its silly and we all mock it. I mean 4,000 1911 variants, and everyone and thier dog doing plastic pocket pistols? Yes thats what the market wants, but you don't make long term money by giving people what they want, you do it by giving them something they didn't know they wanted until you build it, cf. Apple with the I pod and I phone. I mean come on, Remington has all the money in the world to pay an R@D team to be the next John Moses Browning and change the world. What do we get? A new 1911, a hundred year old design. Browning himself would be disgusted by this. If he thought along those same lines he would have made the finest flintlock pistols on the planet. ::)
FQ13
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See, I posted in anearlier thread that Remington was going to come out with a 1911! It took them a little longer than I had been lead to believe.
FWIW
Richard
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FQ, as long as there is a healthy market for 1911's, and it ain't slowing down, companies will continue to try to get a piece of the big pie....I say let 'em.....it's more choices for those who appreciate a fine and ingenious design.
I DO agree theoretically with what you said about JMB. He was an innovator who thought so far ahead of, and outside, the normal confines of what others were doing. That is why so many of his designs are still benchmarks and in use today. That is a tremendous statement to him being a genius ahead of his time..... that no one has really and truly come up with a totally new concept that is readily marketable. I do think he would be astounded that the basic concepts are relatively unchanged in pistolcraft.
Personally, on pure function and aesthetics, IMHO, there will never be superior gun to the 1911 for what it was intended....but that is just MHO.
8)
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Surprise, I have an opinion on this one..
Working in design and manufacturing as long as I have now, I think that what we are lacking in this area is vision. Browning had a vision of what he wanted and worked tirelessly until he achieved that goal. Today, we have better technology, better design packages, software that will analyze the design, perform structural and stress analysis and point out design flaws before they ever get around to make parts but things don't seem to be evolving.
We lack the vision of the folks like Edison, Ford, Browning, et al.....those men were brilliant not only in their own fields but in others as well. If JMB had not been in the gun business, he would have excelled in any endeavor he undertook.
I've been working in this field for 30+ years and I've yet to meet one engineer who could make these men coffee!
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Surprise, I have an opinion on this one..
Working in design and manufacturing as long as I have now, I think that what we are lacking in this area is vision. Browning had a vision of what he wanted and worked tirelessly until he achieved that goal. Today, we have better technology, better design packages, software that will analyze the design, perform structural and stress analysis and point out design flaws before they ever get around to make parts but things don't seem to be evolving.
We lack the vision of the folks like Edison, Ford, Browning, et al.....those men were brilliant not only in their own fields but in others as well. If JMB had not been in the gun business, he would have excelled in any endeavor he undertook.
I've been working in this field for 30+ years and I've yet to meet one engineer who could make these men coffee!
Thanks, that was what I was rambling to try to get at........you said it better. ;D
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In this regard, I respect Ruger for NOT following along with the pack and making a 1911 like all the "cool kids" have.....
....almost makes me forget the RugAR-15 thing.... ::)
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I've said it before and I'll say it again,"Will someone PLEASE come up with something new"? Even if its silly and we all mock it. I mean 4,000 1911 variants, and everyone and thier dog doing plastic pocket pistols? Yes thats what the market wants, but you don't make long term money by giving people what they want, you do it by giving them something they didn't know they wanted until you build it, cf. Apple with the I pod and I phone. I mean come on, Remington has all the money in the world to pay an R@D team to be the next John Moses Browning and change the world. What do we get? A new 1911, a hundred year old design. Browning himself would be disgusted by this. If he thought along those same lines he would have made the finest flintlock pistols on the planet. ::)
FQ13
one word.
Rhino
Timothy, You said it well, especially about modern so called engineers not being in the same class. They aren't even in the same school district.
Here's something to think about . We designed (Kelly Johnson did ) the SR 71, the USS Nimitz , the USS Nautilus, the Apollo space program and the Space Shuttle all using slide rules.
What have we done since ? :-\
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I'm a bit confused by the RHINO remark as I am not, and never have been, nor plan to be a serious member of the Republican (or Democratic) party, nor have I pretended to be one, and I'm not sure of its relevance to the topic in any event. Still, I agree with the rest of your post. I mean seriously, it was less than 70 years from the first powered flight at Kitty Hawk to putting a man on the moon. Why are we still tweaking a 100 year old pistol design? Caseless amo, electronic ignition, hell why don't we have god damn phasers for that matter? It simply speaks to a lack of vision on the part of engineers and a lack of balls on the part of the MBA types to throw some money at those engineers that do have vision. JMB wasn't that smart. I refuse to believe that there aren't a bunch of folks just as smart as him who lack only funding from companies like Ruger or Remington to get off the ground. Instead we get another AR or 1911. JMB and Stoner and Kalisnikov would walk into a board meeting and proceed to kick everyone's ass if they knew that their one hundred or fifty year old designs (respectively) were not made obsolete by people who thought like they did. Just my $.02.
FQ13
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I got it in the mail a few days ago. I was wondering when someone would post about it and what was thought of it. Looks good to me.
I think we are getting one from Ruger pretty soon too, but I really want to see some Bren 10's on the shelves.
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I'm a bit confused by the RHINO remark as I am not, and never have been, nor plan to be a serious member of the Republican (or Democratic) party,
FQ13
That would be RINO. Perhaps Tom meant this? http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/09/30/chiappa-rhino-revolver/
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Here's something to think about . We designed (Kelly Johnson did ) the SR 71, the USS Nimitz , the USS Nautilus, the Apollo space program and the Space Shuttle all using slide rules.
What have we done since ? :-\
The SR71 was designed with the "think tank" process. A group of the best people working tightly together to get the job done. Probably the most advanced aircraft ever developed and ever to be developed.
You won't see many achievements like that any more. To many accountants, review committees, company policies, government inspections and approvals, and Managers, instead of Leaders, involved.
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There are people that spend all there time pouring through old patents looking for ones that were too far ahead of their times. Things that couldn't be manufactured then but can now due to better machines and metallurgy.
JMB was the greatest gun designer of all time plus he had the drive to see it through. There are lots of brilliant designs ot there that never leave someone's dreams or notepad--they don't have the drive or resources to see it through.
I don't care if there is another 1911 on the market. I much prefer to see another 1911 than some marginal unreliable untested design. I do wish we could get the 1911 down to a $400 gun, but that isn't happening without a significant change in the value of a dollar.
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As for music, a local oldies station here has a saying, "All of the great music has already been recorded." I think there is a lot of truth in that. It's one of the reasons most of today's modern stuff stinks, and is around for 15 minutes or less. There will never be a station that plays stuff from the 90's to 2010 thirty years from now simply because no one will remember it, let alone want to hear it.
I think it's much the same with gun designs. The AR-15 was about the most revolutionary weapon of modern times, and it's over 50 years old. Look at most semi auto pistols. They either are, or closely mimic the 1911. A revolver is a revolver. Not much they can do with it except make it out of something different. They've tried Aluminum, Titanium and plastic. Not much left.
Same with bolt action rifles. Savage, Remington, Browning, Ruger, Mauser, all look and operate much the same. There just isn't a whole lot more to invent. In shotguns they've come out with some new ideas. Benelli's inertia action on the Super Black Eagle is a nice idea that really works well. As for pistols Glock was it, and it was over 25 years ago. Now they're all jumping on the bandwagon. Springfield with the XD, and S&W with the Sigma and M&P. Just a Glock in different clothes.
1911's sell well. That is why everyone and their brother is making them. Just like AR-15's. Yeah, they skeletonize the hammers, checker everything except the inside of the barrel, put on every kind of sight ever manufactured since the dawn of time, but in the end it's another 1911. Some are finished better. Some fit better, and others simply go bang. It's much the same with cartridges. 10 years ago the short fat wonders were all the rage. Now most, like the Remington SAUM's have tanked. People who like guns are for the most part traditionalists.
I think many of the gun manufacturers would be better served bringing out modern replicas of old designs. I'd like to see a NEW Garand with a Stainless Steel gas system, or even a Browning BAR in semi auto produced by a big name like Browning again. The .50 BMG's have caught on well. Gun makers are finding it harder and harder to make a buck today. I think partly because of the "Build 'em cheap, and stack 'em deep" philosophy. Guns used to be handed down. Now many are lucky to last for a few years. As with music, all of the good guns have already been invented. Bill T.
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The SR71 was designed with the "think tank" process. A group of the best people working tightly together to get the job done. Probably the most advanced aircraft ever developed and ever to be developed.
You won't see many achievements like that any more. To many accountants, review committees, company policies, government inspections and approvals, and Managers, instead of Leaders, involved.
I wholeheartedly agree with that.
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I think many of the gun manufacturers would be better served bringing out modern replicas of old designs. I'd like to see a NEW Garand with a Stainless Steel gas system, or even a Browning BAR in semi auto produced by a big name like Browning again. The .50 BMG's have caught on well. Gun makers are finding it harder and harder to make a buck today. I think partly because of the "Build 'em cheap, and stack 'em deep" philosophy. Guns used to be handed down. Now many are lucky to last for a few years. As with music, all of the good guns have already been invented. Bill T.
And we have a winner. Except, SA tried a modern Garand and ceased production. Anyone know why?
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Another thing is to look at the auto industry. I remember going to auto shows in the late 60's and seeing these, "Concept Cars Of The Future". They were on giant turntables surrounded by models in short skirts and high heeled boots. They all looked like something George Jetson was driving. It would have taken 5 cans of Windex to clean all of the glass.
In reality look at what we have over 40 years later. Ford started off in the new millennium with introducing a retro late 60's styled Mustang. It's selling like hotcakes. Dodge responded with a retro 60's Hemi Challenger. Again sales took off, bad economy and all. Chevy finally smelled the coffee perking and came out with a 60's styled "new" Camaro. Again, great sales.
This even relates back to women's fashion. Short skirts and high heeled boots are back "in". The older we get, the more "old" we want. That "new" Garand is looking better and better! Bill T.
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The SR71 was designed with the "think tank" process. A group of the best people working tightly together to get the job done. Probably the most advanced aircraft ever developed and ever to be developed.
You won't see many achievements like that any more. To many accountants, review committees, company policies, government inspections and approvals, and Managers, instead of Leaders, involved.
And older friend of mine who passed away a few years ago worked for over 40 years at the Lockheed "Skunk Works". He worked for years with Kelly Johnson on both the U-2 and the SR-71. He said when they started on the project they had to come up with technology that had not been invented yet. Kelly Johnson called a meeting at the start of the project with all of his managers and design people. He said:
"From now on don't anyone call me into a meeting that lasts over 5 minutes because I'll walk out. I don't have time. Don't anyone send me a memo over 2 paragraphs long. I don't have time to read it. I'll give you all the personnel you need to do the job. I'll give you all of the tools you need to do the job. I'll give you a respectable time frame in which to do the job. But after all that, if you CAN'T do the job, I'm going to get rid of you because I don't have the time.
Ben Rich turned to my friend and said, Ernie, I'll buy you a drink when we get off tonight! In less than 18 months they had a prototype in the air. Today that kind of undertaking would be all but impossible. Hell, in 1969 we went to the Moon in a program that lasted less than a decade. Today we can't even get our guys into low Earth orbit. Starting in a few months we'll have to hitch a ride with the Russians. It's disgusting. Bill T.
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And we have a winner. Except, SA tried a modern Garand and ceased production. Anyone know why?
I don't know if it was entirely "new". I think they were made from older parts, and some newly manufactured ones. They are selling the M-1A's like crazy. I don't know why they don't come out with a completely new Garand. It would sell like hotcakes! These are the kind of guns we need and want. Not cheap plastic pocket pistols and revolvers. God, how many guns can people carry? Bill T.
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Here is a picture. :D
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One problem with the Garand is that you can't hunt with it in a lot of states as it holds 8 rouds. Without some kind of plug, you've got a spendy 30.06 that you can't multi task with. Buy an M1-A1 or an AR-10 with a five round mag and you're good to go for all jobs. I doubt I'm alone in saying that this would be an issue (thogh not nesessarily a deal breaker) for me. Still if I'm going to drop close to a grand on a gun, I want versatility.
FQ13
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....God, how many guns can people carry?...
My personal most at once is FIVE. ;D Oh, wait......... ;D
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One problem with the Garand is that you can't hunt with it in a lot of states as it holds 8 rouds. Without some kind of plug, you've got a spendy 30.06 that you can't multi task with. Buy an M1-A1 or an AR-10 with a five round mag and you're good to go for all jobs. I doubt I'm alone in saying that this would be an issue (thogh not nesessarily a deal breaker) for me. Still if I'm going to drop close to a grand on a gun, I want versatility.
FQ13
Actually they do make 5 round and 2 round en-bloc clips for the M1 Garand.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=311304 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=311304)
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=759224 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=759224)
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While this post might be thread drift...at least it is drifting it back towards the original topic...
My second pistol was a Colt Mark IV Series 70 Government Model. My first was a Ruger Blackhawk .357.
Maybe my perceptions of the "goodness" of the 1911 trigger design is inaccurate, but it just seems to me that all triggers should work the same way. Straight back, no rotation, no changing angles...just the same pull direction.
I know it would not be the cheapest to make, but it sure seems like the best design to me.
Why don't any non-1911 pistols use this design?
Is it that the difference is negligible? I've felt superb trigger pulls of both 1911 and pivoting design.
Thanks
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I've said it before and I'll say it again,"Will someone PLEASE come up with something new"? Remington has all the money in the world to pay an R@D team to be the next John Moses Browning and change the world. FQ13
Actually, it's quite the opposite. Remington was all but bankrupt when Cerberus Capital Management bought them, and in the process rescued them from what was to be guaranteed financial ruin. The fact is without Cerberus, it is doubtful Remington Arms would even exist today. Their financial track record was dismal at best, bankrupt-able in fact. Poor management, along with several multi million dollar lawsuits they lost due to their Walker Fire Control System would have put plywood over the windows long ago. Bill T.
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I don't know if it was entirely "new". I think they were made from older parts, and some newly manufactured ones. They are selling the M-1A's like crazy. I don't know why they don't come out with a completely new Garand. It would sell like hotcakes! These are the kind of guns we need and want. Not cheap plastic pocket pistols and revolvers. God, how many guns can people carry? Bill T.
Bill, you and I are on the same page here. I just took delivery of a CMP Service grade Garand.
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/Capbyrd/My%20Guns/M1%20Garand/photo.jpg)
I also have a Springer 1911 loaded. I plan on selling the loaded and stepping back down to a Milspec or GI. Also in my sights are an M1 Carbine, M1A/M14, and an M1903. I prefer the classics and would like to see more people making them. And I want to see reproductions and not modernized versions with plastic everywhere.
As for the Remington, its nice and all but is very reminiscent of a Springer Mil-Spec that is priced 100 dollars less.
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(http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Remington1911_2.jpg)
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Who uses a bushing wrench anymore?
Not bad looking, looks as though they took some time to clean all the really sharp edges that can remain on a GI 1911 of affordable pricing.
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Who uses a bushing wrench anymore?
Kimber supplies you with one as well with all of their new 1911's. Better to have than not have. It's nice they're made out of polymer and not steel. They can't turn a burr, or damage the finish. Very nice gun ericire! Bill T.
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Kimber supplies you with one as well with all of their new 1911's. Better to have than not have. It's nice they're made out of polymer and not steel. They can't turn a burr, or damage the finish. Bill T.
Said the man who knows what EVERY new gun comes with.......... I HATE BILL! ;D
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Kimber supplies you with one as well with all of their new 1911's. Better to have than not have. It's nice they're made out of polymer and not steel. They can't turn a burr, or damage the finish. Very nice gun ericire! Bill T.
Yea, my PARA came with a plastic one as well. It's still in the pretty green plastic box that it was packed in. My guns have scratches, all of them! It's their rite of passage.......and a 1911, as you well know, can be broken down into it's finite parts WITHOUT tools.
;D
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Who uses a bushing wrench anymore?
Not bad looking, looks as though they took some time to clean all the really sharp edges that can remain on a GI 1911 of affordable pricing.
Comes in handy if you have one of the full length guide rods in your 1911 (I lost my bushing wrench though). Makes it easier. With the standard spring with fully closed end cap you don't need it.
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Comes in handy if you have one of the full length guide rods in your 1911 (I lost my bushing wrench though). Makes it easier. With the standard spring with fully closed end cap you don't need it.
I replaced my FLGR with a standard guide and plug.
I've always used the back of my magazines and my thumb...
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I owe FQ AN APOLOGY ;D
I posted once and then ignored this thread for a few days,
I FORGOT THE STUPID LINK ;D
FQ, I did indeed mean the Chiappa "Rhino" revolver.
As a form of Penance I will offer the Mateba Semi Auto revolver .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_revolver
I replaced my FLGR with a standard guide and plug.
I've always used the back of my magazines and my thumb...
I've never used a tool on field stripping a 1911,
I take the "Take Down Pin " out, remove the slide, and lift out spring and barrel.
So I get my aggravation on reassembly trying to line the link up so you can put the pin in against spring pressure. ;D
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(http://cdn1.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/remington_r_1_1911-tfb.jpg)
See also:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/04/23/new-remington-1911-r1/