The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: kygunnut on April 26, 2010, 05:58:30 PM
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I am just wondering?? I know there are a LOT of forums discussing various how-to’s about building your own AR/AK/fill in the blank here rifles. My question is this. I have just ordered a new stripped lower (AR) which I plan to build into a pistol. Is anyone out there interested in me documenting this build here or is it best left on the other forums? Since this will be built into a pistol I am posting this here. Before I do this I would like to make sure I am not stepping on any feet. Any of you senior (and not so senior) members please feel free to chime in.
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Go ahead and build away and post pictures and add a range report when your project is finished. You never know, you might inspire others.
JMHOFWIW
Richard
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Someone more learned than I can probably step in here, but I thought I'd ask.....If it is a rifle receiver, and you make it a pistol, don't you have to go through some ATFE red tape like it was a Short Barreled Rifle?
I know Kel-Tec makes a 5.56 pistol that takes AR mags, but it is sold 'as a pistol'. If you turn a rifle receiver into a pistol I think you need special paperwork....but I'm not sure. I hope someone can enlighten me/us here.
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Someone more learned than I can probably step in here, but I thought I'd ask.....If it is a rifle receiver, and you make it a pistol, don't you have to go through some ATFE red tape like it was a Short Barreled Rifle?
I know Kel-Tec makes a 5.56 pistol that takes AR mags, but it is sold 'as a pistol'. If you turn a rifle receiver into a pistol I think you need special paperwork....but I'm not sure. I hope someone can enlighten me/us here.
Yup, you can have a long barreled pistol, just not a short barred rifle. (Anyone who can explain the logic of that get's my respect, but a bit of pity as well, I mean honestly, it makes about as much sense as "Don't ask don't tell"). Anywhoo, its the lower that is the issue. There are companies that make AR Pistol lowers. I don't know how, since stocks are interchangeable, one makes an AR "Pistol" lower, but folks do and don't go to jail. This is one those areas, just like buying a house or signing a business contract. where hiring an hour of lawyer who knows what they are talking about's time seems like money well spent, as its a stupid thing to go to jail over when the type III licence that will let you own a short barreled rifle is pretty easy to get depending on your local sheriff.
FQ13 who is paranoid about dotting I's and crossing T's when buying or selling guns. They are out to hang us, don't give the bastards an inch of rope for free. Just my .02.
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Someone w/more experience/knowledge can correct me on this, but: It is my understanding that if you build it as a "pistol", I.E. no stock other than the buffer tube that is neccessary, no special paperwork is needed. But, as soon as you put a stock on it as a coplete gun, you can NEVER convert it back, or convert it to a SBR w/o the proper paperwork. There is a lot of discussion about this on another forum that I monitor. I am curious about this as I also want to build a pistol. I have 2 lowers enroute to me now, 1 for a 6.8 SPC rifle I'm building and the other for a future pistol.
A related thought ???: While not condoning any such thing, how does the ATF know if I dress my gun up in pretty clothes in the privacy of my home? Only to put more politically correct items back on before going out in public. I have the same thoughts everytime I try on my wife's lingerie :o !!! UH OH! Too much info!
Brian
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A related thought ???: While not condoning any such thing, how does the ATF know if I dress my gun up in pretty clothes in the privacy of my home? Only to put more politically correct items back on before going out in public. I have the same thoughts everytime I try on my wife's lingerie :o !!! UH OH! Too much info!
Brian
Brian
Correct on both points. On the second, yes, TMI. We will will merely accept the fact that you work all night, sleep all day and hang about in bars. But you're a lumberjack, and that's ok. ;) ;D ;D ;D
As to your first point, will the ATF know? The answer is no, up until you have to shoot somebody or one of your shooting buddies can't keep their mouths shut and they tell a friend who tells a friend etc., etc.. The key to keeping a secret is DON'T TELL ANYONE! But what fun is that with a range toy? You built it, you want to play with it and brag about it. All bad things if you're trying to stay out of jail. Me, unless I honestly believe that the zombie invasion/alien space bats or Red Dawn part II (subtitled "Not as cool as You Thought It Was in the '80's Is It" ) is going to be coming to my home town, I don't want a toy I will have to build in secret and shoot in the dead of night. If I want an illegal, handy and concealable weapon, I own two very nice SxSs and a hacksaw (and believe me the alien space bats will have to be down the block before I deface my Parker). Its just more trouble than its worth. My advice, either forget it, or spend the $300 and get the permit.
FQ13
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Possession of the parts is the crime.
If you have the parts and the gun you lose even if they are never even in the same room.
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Someone more learned than I can probably step in here, but I thought I'd ask.....If it is a rifle receiver, and you make it a pistol, don't you have to go through some ATFE red tape like it was a Short Barreled Rifle?
From a letter from the BATFE:
From: http://www.nfaoa.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=694&sid=6c26f06fbba6c424a0beda31d8fce98e
Oct 29 1992
Dear Mr. XXXXX:
This refers to your letter of October 1, 1992, in which you inquire
about the legality of manufacturing a handgun which utilizes a rifle
type receiver.
26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 # 5845(a)(4), the National Firearms Act (NFA),
defines the term "firearm" to include a weapon made from a rifle if
such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of
manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as
defined above. Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first
submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and
pay the applicable $200 making tax.
If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity.
We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we may
be of any further assistance, please contact us.
Sincerely your,
(signed)
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
So as long as I maintain proof that the receiver was purchased new and was made into a pistol first I believe I should be O.K. I have keep the receipt from the distributer and dealer showing that it was purchased new and never made into a rifle and the transfer form from the dealer show it was sold as a reveiver NOT a handgun or long gun. ( Yeap, got a copy of that also.)
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The Thompson Center Contender was designed to accept many different barrels.
They also made a rifle based on the Contender receiver. So you could buy a Contender piston or a rifle based on the same receiver.
I don't remember hearing anything was done to make the parts non-interchangeable?
If I remember correctly it was said that you were legal as long as you didn't have both disassembled at the same time.
It doesn't have to make sense...it's just the law.
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That letter backs up what I always thought. If it's never been assembled into a rifle you can make a pistol out of it. The weird thing about the law is that you can make a rifle out of a pistol, no problem. No paperwork or anything. But if you make a pistol out of a rifle they can fine you $500,000 and throw you in jail for 10 years, IIRC.
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Don't you get into trouble if you put a rifle type stock on a pistol?
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Don't you get into trouble if you put a rifle type stock on a pistol?
Not if the barell is 16 inches or better and its more than two feet long. Again, its like the wet foot dry foot policy or don't ask, don't tell. Sometimes I think the government wants a solution to a problem so badly that that they put said solution into law without ever reading it to see if it makes any sense at all.
FQ13
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Only sometimes?
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According to an absolute stranger I met in the local gun shop there is a C&R exemption for things like Luger's or Broomhandle Mauser's.
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The key issue as I understand it is whether the receiver has ever been used to build a rifle, in which case it's a rifle. Some lower manufacturers (Spike's Tactical and Rock River come immediately to mind) offer to sell you either a rifle or a pistol lower, so you'll be covered on your build.
I think the tricky issue is whether you have to components to build whatever upper you have into a legal gun. Here's the Wikipedia entry on the Thompson Center case that went to the Supreme Court in the 1990s:
"In the case of United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co. (1992), the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the company's favor by deciding that the rifle conversion kit that Thompson sold with their pistols did not constitute a short barreled rifle under the National Firearms Act of 1934.[7]
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms contended that the mere possession of a pistol, having a barrel less than sixteen inches (406 mm) long, with a shoulder stock and rifle-length (more than sixteen inches) barrel constituted constructive intent to "make" an illegal short-barreled rifle (by combining the pistol's frame, the pistol-length barrel, and the shoulder stock).
This decision clarified the meaning of the term "make" in the National Firearms Act by stating that the pistol had to be assembled with a barrel less than 16 inches (410 mm) long with a stock directly attached to it to constitute a short-barrelled rifle under the National Firearms Act, and that the mere possession of components that theoretically could be assembled in an illegal configuration was not in itself a violation, as long as the components could also be assembled into legal configurations.[8]"
My understanding of this provision is that if you have, say, an 11-inch AR upper and ONLY AR-15s in rifle configurations, you are in violation of the 1934 Firearms Act, because there is no way to assemble the 11-inch upper into a non-regulated firearm...you always end up with an SBR. If, however, you also have a stripped dedicated pistol lower, you are 100% legal because you can assemble a non-regulated firearm, a pistol, with the parts. Ditto for having a T/C folding stock and only pistol-length T/C barrels...that would be illegal because the only possible final assembly would be an SBR. If you purchase a T/C rifle barrel, the components become legal.
I realize this is complete and total nonsense...we all know that the whole SBR/SBS provisions of the 1934 Firearms Act were only in there because the intent was to make all handguns and short-barreled anythings controlled weapons, but that at the last minute handguns were removed from the Act and SBR/SBS were left in so all those now-underemployed revenuers had something to justify their existence. THAT SAID, I strongly suggest erring on the side of caution, given how BATFE has viciously enforced the SBR/SBS rules. Part of that caution might be purchasing a dedicated PISTOL lower so there would be no question as to the legality of your product. I believe you can also ask the lower manufacturer to specify in the transfer documents that the receiver is for a PISTOL, which should cover you. You can always change your mind and build a rifle from a pistol, just not the other way around...
Michael B
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I realize this is complete and total nonsense...we all know that the whole SBR/SBS provisions of the 1934 Firearms Act were only in there because the intent was to make all handguns and short-barreled anythings controlled weapons, but that at the last minute handguns were removed from the Act and SBR/SBS were left in so all those now-underemployed revenuers had something to justify their existence. THAT SAID, I strongly suggest erring on the side of caution, given how BATFE has viciously enforced the SBR/SBS rules. Part of that caution might be purchasing a dedicated PISTOL lower so there would be no question as to the legality of your product. I believe you can also ask the lower manufacturer to specify in the transfer documents that the receiver is for a PISTOL, which should cover you. You can always change your mind and build a rifle from a pistol, just not the other way around...
Michael B
Well if I may be so bold to ask your opinion. I know you are not a lawyer and you do not represent the BATFE. Since I have copies of all receipts, distribuler, dealer, and the 4473 showing transfer of a new receiver, is that along with a copy of the letter I quoted, enough to cover me? (Now you have me worried)
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From my own research, MB is right. Still, I would be, not worried but aware. I mean a single shot .270 from TC is one thing. Still ATF took it to the SC. Now consider how hard they or a DA might push for a "high-cap assault pistol designed to murder children". Figure the gun's going to set you back seven to nine bills. My advice? Spend an extra 2 to talk to a lawyer who can advise you. I'm sure the NRA can refer you to one experienced in firearms law in your area. They might even do it pro-bono. This gets easier if you buy prebuilt, but when you start rolling your own, the rules get fuzzier. Sad but true.
FQ13
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FQ, ATF Took T/C to the SCOTUS twice, they also went there over the 45/410 pistol in a case that made the Taurus Judge possible.
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Make sure you keep a copy of the transaction to show that you purchased it new and that the receiver was never built into a rifle. I might also consider what the receiver makers to to distinguish a "pistol" receiver from a "rifle" receiver — they engrave the pistol receiver "PISTOL." Strikes me as a cheap piece of insurance.
You also reminded me to buy a pistol lower so I can build up a 5.56 pistol to go with my Spike's 9mm AR pistol...
Michael B
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I'm going to pass on one of the tid bits of wizdom my father told me growing up.
Goverment agencys that have 3 letter abbreviations, don't play fair.
IRS, EPA, ATF( yeah I know its now the BATFE, but its still the ATF), BOE, DOJ... etc
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Make sure you keep a copy of the transaction to show that you purchased it new and that the receiver was never built into a rifle. I might also consider what the receiver makers to to distinguish a "pistol" receiver from a "rifle" receiver — they engrave the pistol receiver "PISTOL." Strikes me as a cheap piece of insurance.
You also reminded me to buy a pistol lower so I can build up a 5.56 pistol to go with my Spike's 9mm AR pistol...
Michael B
That is EXACTLY what I was going to do!. Thanks. Good luck with the 5.56 and let us know how it shoots. The 9mm looks great.
What brand of pop-up sights are those on the pistol?
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I'm going to pass on one of the tid bits of wizdom my father told me growing up.
Goverment agencys that have 3 letter abbreviations, don't play fair.
IRS, EPA, ATF( yeah I know its now the BATFE, but its still the ATF), BOE, DOJ... etc
bHo
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I seem to remember that case way back when. I think if I'm not mistaken, Sandra Day O'Connor, who was known for her anti gun positions, actually voted in favor of Thompson Center saying the possession of a Thompson rifle barrel and a pistol by the same owner made him no more guilty of "owning" a short barreled rifle, than a person who possessed a shotgun and a hacksaw would be guilty of "owning" a sawed off shotgun. Not a bad argument if you think about it. Bill T.
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I seem to remember that case way back when. I think if I'm not mistaken, Sandra Day O'Connor, who was known for her anti gun positions, actually voted in favor of Thompson Center saying the possession of a Thompson rifle barrel and a pistol by the same owner made him no more guilty of "owning" a short barreled rifle, than a person who possessed a shotgun and a hacksaw would be guilty of "owning" a sawed off shotgun. Not a bad argument if you think about it. Bill T.
I miss Sandra. Not the greatest on the 2A, but generally a voice of reason amid all the shouting and always honest and direct. We could do with more like her in temperment and attitude, if not always in terms of policy.
FQ13 wo thinks she is one of the 10 best things Reagan did while in office.
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Got in all of my parts today. One surprise. The upper/ bolt carrier assembly is already assembled and headspaced. All I have to do is build the lower. I am not sure that is worth showing. Any suggestions?
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parts kit from Blackthorne Products. Delivered $519.00. Lower from R-Guns. $85.00 delivered to dealer. Transfer fee $20.00.
Total cost for AR pistol $625.00.
I will post picture when assembled.
I haven't figured out which pop up sights to use yet or what type of optic. Any suggestions?