Author Topic: AR Pistol build??  (Read 7514 times)

Solus

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Re: AR Pistol build??
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2010, 12:07:29 PM »
Don't you get into trouble if you put a rifle type stock on a pistol?
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fightingquaker13

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Re: AR Pistol build??
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2010, 12:59:59 PM »
Don't you get into trouble if you put a rifle type stock on a pistol?

Not if the barell is 16 inches or better and its more than two feet long. Again, its like the wet foot dry foot policy or don't ask, don't tell. Sometimes I think the government wants a solution to a problem so badly that that they put said solution into law without ever reading it to see if it makes any sense at all.
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Walter45Auto

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Re: AR Pistol build??
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2010, 01:38:32 PM »
Only sometimes?
"If You seek to do me harm, I don't care about your past." - Michael Bane

tombogan03884

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Re: AR Pistol build??
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2010, 01:44:56 AM »
According to an absolute stranger I met in the local gun shop there is a C&R exemption for things like Luger's or Broomhandle Mauser's.

Michael Bane

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Re: AR Pistol build??
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2010, 03:43:24 PM »
The key issue as I understand it is whether the receiver has ever been used to build a rifle, in which case it's a rifle. Some lower manufacturers (Spike's Tactical and Rock River come immediately to mind) offer to sell you either a rifle or a pistol lower, so you'll be covered on your build.

I think the tricky issue is whether you have to components to build whatever upper you have into a legal gun. Here's the Wikipedia entry on the Thompson Center case that went to the Supreme Court in the 1990s:

"In the case of United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co. (1992), the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the company's favor by deciding that the rifle conversion kit that Thompson sold with their pistols did not constitute a short barreled rifle under the National Firearms Act of 1934.[7]
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms contended that the mere possession of a pistol, having a barrel less than sixteen inches (406 mm) long, with a shoulder stock and rifle-length (more than sixteen inches) barrel constituted constructive intent to "make" an illegal short-barreled rifle (by combining the pistol's frame, the pistol-length barrel, and the shoulder stock).
This decision clarified the meaning of the term "make" in the National Firearms Act by stating that the pistol had to be assembled with a barrel less than 16 inches (410 mm) long with a stock directly attached to it to constitute a short-barrelled rifle under the National Firearms Act, and that the mere possession of components that theoretically could be assembled in an illegal configuration was not in itself a violation, as long as the components could also be assembled into legal configurations.[8]"


My understanding of this provision is that if you have, say, an 11-inch AR upper and ONLY AR-15s in rifle configurations, you are in violation of the 1934 Firearms Act, because there is no way to assemble the 11-inch upper into a non-regulated firearm...you always end up with an SBR. If, however, you also have a stripped dedicated pistol lower, you are 100% legal because you can assemble a non-regulated firearm, a pistol, with the parts. Ditto for having a T/C folding stock and only pistol-length T/C barrels...that would be illegal because the only possible final assembly would be an SBR. If you purchase a T/C rifle barrel, the components become legal.

I realize this is complete and total nonsense...we all know that the whole SBR/SBS provisions of the 1934 Firearms Act were only in there because the intent was to make all handguns and short-barreled anythings controlled weapons, but that at the last minute handguns were removed from the Act and SBR/SBS were left in so all those now-underemployed revenuers had something to justify their existence. THAT SAID, I strongly suggest erring on the side of caution, given how BATFE has viciously enforced the SBR/SBS rules. Part of that caution might be purchasing a dedicated PISTOL lower so there would be no question as to the legality of your product. I believe you can also ask the lower manufacturer to specify in the transfer documents that the receiver is for a PISTOL, which should cover you. You can always change your mind and build a rifle from a pistol, just not the other way around...

Michael B

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Re: AR Pistol build??
« Reply #15 on: Today at 10:16:01 AM »

kygunnut

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Re: AR Pistol build??
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2010, 06:37:33 PM »

I realize this is complete and total nonsense...we all know that the whole SBR/SBS provisions of the 1934 Firearms Act were only in there because the intent was to make all handguns and short-barreled anythings controlled weapons, but that at the last minute handguns were removed from the Act and SBR/SBS were left in so all those now-underemployed revenuers had something to justify their existence. THAT SAID, I strongly suggest erring on the side of caution, given how BATFE has viciously enforced the SBR/SBS rules. Part of that caution might be purchasing a dedicated PISTOL lower so there would be no question as to the legality of your product. I believe you can also ask the lower manufacturer to specify in the transfer documents that the receiver is for a PISTOL, which should cover you. You can always change your mind and build a rifle from a pistol, just not the other way around...

Michael B


Well if I may be so bold to ask your opinion. I know you are not a lawyer and you do not represent the BATFE. Since I have copies of all receipts, distribuler, dealer, and the 4473 showing transfer of a new receiver, is that along with a copy of the letter I quoted, enough to cover me? (Now you have me worried)
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

fightingquaker13

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Re: AR Pistol build??
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2010, 10:22:34 PM »
From my own research, MB is right. Still, I would be, not worried but aware. I mean a single shot .270 from TC is one thing. Still ATF took it to the SC. Now consider how hard they or a DA might push for a "high-cap assault pistol designed to murder children". Figure the gun's going to set you back seven to nine bills. My advice? Spend an extra 2 to talk to a lawyer who can advise you. I'm sure the NRA can refer you to one experienced in firearms law in your area. They might even do it pro-bono. This gets easier if you buy prebuilt, but when you start rolling your own, the rules get fuzzier. Sad but true.
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tombogan03884

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Re: AR Pistol build??
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2010, 03:00:59 AM »
FQ, ATF Took T/C to the SCOTUS  twice, they also went there over the 45/410 pistol in a case that made the Taurus Judge possible.

Michael Bane

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Re: AR Pistol build??
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2010, 01:26:45 PM »
Make sure you keep a copy of the transaction to show that you purchased it new and that the receiver was never built into a rifle. I might also consider what the receiver makers to to distinguish a "pistol" receiver from a "rifle" receiver — they engrave the pistol receiver "PISTOL." Strikes me as a cheap piece of insurance.

You also reminded me to buy a pistol lower so I can build up a 5.56 pistol to go with my Spike's 9mm AR pistol...

Michael B
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Re: AR Pistol build??
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2010, 04:01:44 PM »
I'm going to pass on one of the tid bits of wizdom my father told me growing up.

Goverment agencys that have 3 letter abbreviations, don't play fair. 

IRS, EPA, ATF( yeah I know its now the BATFE, but its still the ATF), BOE, DOJ...  etc
I always break all the clay pigeons,  some times its even with lead.

 

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