The Down Range Forum
Flying Dragon Productions ( Michael Bane ) => The Best Defense on My Outdoor TV => Topic started by: sanjuancb on August 13, 2010, 09:39:18 PM
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I was looking at Spyderco knives and noticed that the make one called the "Pacific Salt" is similar to the Endura, but in a steel (H1) that is supposed to be rust-proof but is excellent at cutting as well. Does anyone have any experience with this steel?
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My "Machinery's Hand Book" doesn't list it but it is probably a tool steel and should take a good edge.
Will it hold the edge ? Don't know.
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http://www.masteel.co.uk/hi.htm
Pressure vessel steel made per a DIN standard.
Just a guess here but it's a carbon steel that also contains chromium and nickel. Some high carbon stainless materials, after heat treatment and polishing can be corrosion resistant, to a point.
Now, I think Spyderco makes a great product, the H1 designation is probably just advertising.
Some of the best knife edges are produced by a 80 year old guy in Japan who hand hammers, tempers and folds knife blades in a home made furnace. His knives are sold for big bucks to sushi mi chefs. They are so high in carbon that you need to dry the blade after you make each slice off the bait (sushi) to stop the corrosion.
http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=83466
I'm from the mid west, raw fish is something you use to catch REAL food!
;D
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Found this link. Sounds pretty good.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2231171
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Thanks Solus,
FTL;
"H-1 is a Japanese steel so the "H" designations for a USA steel would not correlate."
Explains why it wasn't in my book. (which I bet Tim has as well ;D )
Tim, that was a cool link on the Chefs knives.
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Hmmm....I was going to buy one of these as a everyday carry (low maintenance) defensive knife, but if I doesn't hold an edge as well as 440 I might have to look at the regular Endura. Thanks for the help!
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Hmmm....I was going to buy one of these as a everyday carry (low maintenance) defensive knife, but if I doesn't hold an edge as well as 440 I might have to look at the regular Endura. Thanks for the help!
Was comparing it to the Endura also. It's blade is 1/16 longer than the Endura and it's tip is a bit more rounded. About the edge holding, if you carry it solely as a defensive knife, and carry another blade for everyday chores, how much edge wear will it suffer?
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Was comparing it to the Endura also. It's blade is 1/16 longer than the Endura and it's tip is a bit more rounded. About the edge holding, if you carry it solely as a defensive knife, and carry another blade for everyday chores, how much edge wear will it suffer?
The bane (sorry MB ) of my existence ! most of the edge on my folders stays razor sharp, the tip however rubs on the spine, and dulls with out being opened, let alone used, What irks me most is that that last inch of blade is the one I need sharpest as that's what gets used the most >:(
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I was looking at Spyderco knives and noticed that the make one called the "Pacific Salt" is similar to the Endura, but in a steel (H1) that is supposed to be rust-proof but is excellent at cutting as well. Does anyone have any experience with this steel?
I have some experience with H1. I have not ever had rust and I can get it to pop hair at a zero cant. I personally love the Tazman Salt for emergency defensive usage along with the incredible EDC roll. Great product and I am very upset that I did not get my hands on a Rock Salt when I had the chance. I will not pass up another opportunity again.
tex
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I have some experience with H1. I have not ever had rust and I can get it to pop hair at a zero cant. I personally love the Tazman Salt for emergency defensive usage along with the incredible EDC roll. Great product and I am very upset that I did not get my hands on a Rock Salt when I had the chance. I will not pass up another opportunity again.
tex
As mentioned, H1 is a new one to me, How are it's heat treat properties ? Does it seem excessively brittle ?
That is why I will never own or recommend "Puma" knives, they hold an awesome edge, but the hardness makes the blade more like Ceramic than steel.
I once snapped one by twisting it in a piece of clear pine board.
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Was comparing it to the Endura also. It's blade is 1/16 longer than the Endura and it's tip is a bit more rounded. About the edge holding, if you carry it solely as a defensive knife, and carry another blade for everyday chores, how much edge wear will it suffer?
Good point, I'm not exactly fending off ninjas everyday...
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Followed a couple threads on a couple of forums about H1 knives.
Something was said on one of them about Percipitive Hardning? Not sure it is the right term and for sure not the right spelling. Seemed to be talking about Air Hardening?
I'll see if I can find the links again when I have time.
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Maybe this ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precipitation_hardening
Precipitation hardening, also called age hardening, is a heat treatment technique used to increase the yield strength of malleable materials, including most structural alloys of aluminium, magnesium, nickel and titanium, and some stainless steels. It relies on changes in solid solubility with temperature to produce fine particles of an impurity phase, which impede the movement of dislocations, or defects in a crystal's lattice. Since dislocations are often the dominant carriers of plasticity, this serves to harden the material. The impurities play the same role as the particle substances in particle-reinforced composite materials. Just as the formation of ice in air can produce clouds, snow, or hail, depending upon the thermal history of a given portion of the atmosphere, precipitation in solids can produce many different sizes of particles, which have radically different properties. Unlike ordinary tempering, alloys must be kept at elevated temperature for hours to allow precipitation to take place. This time delay is called aging.
Note that two different heat treatments involving precipitates can alter the strength of a material: solution heat treating and precipitation heat treating. Solid solution strengthening involves formation of a single-phase solid solution via quenching and leaves a material softer. Precipitation heat treating involves the addition of impurity particles to increase a material's strength.[1] Precipitation hardening via precipitation heat treatment is the main topic of discussion in this article.
If you think that was bad, I could have been a real Ahole, and posted "Theory" and "Governing equations" ;D
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Explains why it wasn't in my book. (which I bet Tim has as well ;D )
Tim, that was a cool link on the Chefs knives.
Yes, 27th Edition....and yes, I actually saw the little Japanese dude make one of his knives on the Travel Channel show where the bald guy eats all manner of nasty stuff.......which come to think of it, means nothing to the "Bogan" as you don't have a friggin TV let alone the Travel Channel....
Anyway, it was cool to see a master knife maker in action...1000 bucks for a knife? Not me....I have the cold forged German ones myself....about 200 invested in four blades....they'll last my lifetime.
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H-1 is a very unique steel. To really do it justice, here's an
excerpt from a book that I wrote about the Spyderco Warrior knife,
which is made from H-1:
H-1 is an extraordinary material developed by Myodo Corporation in Japan and used exclusively on Spyderco knives. H-1 is unique among blade materials because it is completely rustproof, it is an austenitic steel, and it is exceptionally tough.
Traditional steels are produced by adding carbon to iron. The addition of the carbon changes the molecular matrix of the metal, giving it the ability to be altered through a variety of heat-based processes to produce hard, extremely durable things like knife blades. Unfortunately, traditional carbon-based steels also have a significant flaw: they are vulnerable to rust.
Rust occurs when the carbon in steel reacts with chloride. To avoid this, H-1 uses 0.10% nitrogen instead of carbon to give the material its steel-like qualities. Nitrogen does not react with chloride, making H-1 blades completely impervious to rust, even when submerged in salt water for extended periods of time. Obviously, this quality is ideal for a knife that will be subjected to harsh battlefield environments.
H-1 is also an austenitic steel. The vast majority of steels used in the knife industry are martensitic steels. They start out in an annealed (soft) form with an austenite structure, but to become usable as knives, they must be heat treated. The heat treating process raises the steel to critical temperature before it is quenched (rapidly cooled).
The exact temperature and quenching media for this process vary according to the steel alloy, but the basic goal is to transform the austenite structure of the steel to hard
crystalline structure called martensite. It is this hardness that allows a knife to take an edge and be an effective cutting tool.
After the initial hardening portion of the heat treating process, the resulting knife is very hard, but also quite brittle and prone to breaking. To increase its toughness without compromising its cutting ability significantly, the blade is tempered. This process re-heats the steel to a prescribed temperature to “draw” it to a lower hardness.
In many cases, the tempering process is repeated more than once. Again, the idea is to achieve the optimal balance between the properties of hardness and toughness.
One unique thing that bladesmiths (knife makers who forge their blades) and some other custom makers do to get the best of both worlds is called differential heat treating. As the name implies, the goal is to achieve “different” hardnesses in different parts of the blade. This is done by carefully heating the spine of the hardened blade with a torch to soften it without affecting the hardness of the edge. The result is a blade that has an extremely tough structure, while maintaining maximum hardness and edge retention at the cutting edge.
Japanese clay tempering, which is also a laborious hand process, achieves differential heat treatment in a different way. It is done by applying a coating of clay to the spine of the blade before heating it. When the blade reaches critical temperature and is quenched, the clay retains heat, allowing the edge to cool quickly to maximum hardness while the spine cools more slowly and achieves a tough, springy hardness. This is the process that gives traditional Samurai swords their amazing combination of flexibility and cutting power.
Differentially heat treated blades are the perfect knives because they offer the very best compromise between edge hardness and toughness. The problem is that differential heat treating is very difficult to do as a manufacturing process—at least with conventional martensitic steels.
As an austenitic steel, H-1 does not go through the traditional heat treating process of other steels. Instead, it is a “work hardened” steel. The mechanical processes of shaping and grinding the steel selectively increase the hardness of the affected surfaces. The areas “worked” the most therefore become the hardest. As such, in the process of shaping a blade, the spine is worked the least, the primary blade bevels are worked significantly more, and the edge is worked the most. More work equals more hardness, which means that H1 has the exact same properties of differential hardness as expensive hand-forged blades and Japanese clay-tempered blades. This, along with is corrosion-proof quality, make is the perfect material for a state-of-the-art military knife.
Stay safe,
Mike
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Mr. Janich,
Thank you for your insight. I was hoping that you would contribute as much! The more I consider this knife the better it looks!
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Mr. Janich,
Thank you for your insight. I was hoping that you would contribute as much! The more I consider this knife the better it looks!
IMHO you will bequeath a prized blade.
tex
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IMHO you will bequeath a prized blade.
tex
Crap...I just ordered one. Now I have to go have a kid ;D
And Thanks, MJ and Tom , for the lessons. I am continually impressed with the knowledge of the folks who roam this forum.
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Haha! That's too funny!