The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: fullautovalmet76 on September 29, 2010, 09:36:27 PM
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Michael wrote about this type of thing on his blog or in a forum post; I forgot which.
I have been carrying the G19 this way for about two months now and I like it alot. I have shot Steel Challenge matches with it and can confess that I get on target faster and with the same accuracy as I did with iron sights. I have had to do several tap-rack drills when my reloads didn't fire and the optic was just fine. I carry it around in my truck where it has been knocked around with no problems there either. Incidentally, the sight is zeroed for 25 yards.
I know: if the battery goes out or the optic fails me I will resort to point shooting or my back up gun(s). I'm willing to take the risk for the advantage it provides. I will say that having a system like the FNP Tactical 45 that allows for an optic and BUIS is the way to go though! I check the sight religiously and keep a spare set of batteries around just in case. Changing the battery is very simple to do also.
I think something like this, especially like the FN pistol, is the future.
-FA
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I realy like the ideal of a red dot on a pistol. Did you have any trouble mounting the sight? Tactical one has a deal where you can buy a slide with a red dot attached, and co-wittnessed sights that are taller than stock sights. But the $1200 price is a little steep for me.
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I realy like the ideal of a red dot on a pistol. Did you have any trouble mounting the sight? Tactical one has a deal where you can buy a slide with a red dot attached, and co-wittnessed sights that are taller than stock sights. But the $1200 price is a little steep for me.
No problem for me- I had my favorite gunsmith put the dovetail mount on! ;) But that wasn't that hard though, I didn't have rear sight installation tool or I would have done it myself. After the mount is on, screw in two screws and it's off to the range to zero it in!
Yeah, $1,200 would make me think twice too. But I think the price of this stuff is going to come down over the next few years where it will be very viable for all of us.
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Two questions.
One: How much dinero? I like red dot optics. My eotech has made me not just a convert, but a missionary. Askiing me about it is like asking a normal person about their grand kid. ;D Still, they get pricy.
Two: what kind of holster and carry set-up do you use? It seems more likely to get hung up than a pistol without the optic.
FQ13
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I'll echo FQ's post, except I don't need to ask price, (Not rich, to poor to care ;D ) While I am distrustful of battery power I can see where this would be perfect for the video game generations learning to shoot now.
I am really curious about Holster, and carry comfort (My 1911 hammer spur jabs me in the ribs ;D ).
Also, since it is mounted on a Glock, I hope you will treat it like a Glock, when you toss it in the truck do it from 20 feet away. I'm really interested how it will hold up to out right abuse.
I mean after all, if you need a gun in the real world, your day is already plenty crappy,why give Murphy a chance to make it worse by cracking the lens of your sight . :-\
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I'll echo FQ's post, except I don't need to ask price, (Not rich, to poor to care ;D ) While I am distrustful of battery power I can see where this would be perfect for the video game generations learning to shoot now.
I am really curious about Holster, and carry comfort (My 1911 hammer spur jabs me in the ribs ;D ).
Also, since it is mounted on a Glock, I hope you will treat it like a Glock, when you toss it in the truck do it from 20 feet away. I'm really interested how it will hold up to out right abuse.
I mean after all, if you need a gun in the real world, your day is already plenty crappy,why give Murphy a chance to make it worse by cracking the lens of your sight . :-\
Thats why I carry a Glock and hunt with a beat up 93 year old Parker. Push comes to shove with a gun, hunting or SD, I want something that I know will work no matter what I do to it. Its why I think Timex had the best add campaign ever. "Takes a licking and keeps on ticking". If I have to "take care of it and provide regular maintainence" I really don't want to own it when it comes to a serious gun or optic. What I want is something that will work if I beat the hell out of it, drop it in the dirt, and give it an annual cleaning whether it needs it or not. :-\
FQ13
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The only reason I carry my 1911 instead of a revolver is because this one is like my Tokarev's over the years, If there is a round in the chamber it goes bang when the trigger is pulled, clean,dirty, lubed, dry, 100%, always.
The first time that doesn't happen, it's back to the Smith.
Unless things are good, then maybe a G-20 ;D
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The only reason I carry my 1911 instead of a revolver is because this one is like my Tokarev's over the years, If there is a round in the chamber it goes bang when the trigger is pulled, clean,dirty, lubed, dry, 100%, always.
The first time that doesn't happen, it's back to the Smith.
Unless things are good, then maybe a G-20 ;D
There is hope for you yet. Dittos on the Smith though. Mine is an accidental gun that I really didn't want. Its a non +p rated four inch .38. Its nickel plated, large, and ugly, with crappy sights. I keep meaning to get rid of it. Oddly enough, I never do. 8)
FQ13
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There is hope for you yet. Dittos on the Smith though. Mine is an accidental gun that I really didn't want. Its a non +p rated four inch .38. Its nickel plated, large, and ugly, with crappy sights. I keep meaning to get rid of it. Oddly enough, I never do. 8)
FQ13
Blue 4inch K frame (Model 13 ) .357 ;D
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Why go with a big optic rather than a laser like Crimson Trace? You acquire the target quickly under a stress situation and it is smaller and easier to carry?
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To follow up on Para guy's post, Doesn't some one make a laser that replaces the guide rod on a Glock ? or is that only for 1911's ?
Right off the bat though I see an advantage in picking up the dot as it is already framed by the sight frame instead of just "on the attacker"
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To follow up on Para guy's post, Doesn't some one make a laser that replaces the guide rod on a Glock ? or is that only for 1911's ?
Right off the bat though I see an advantage in picking up the dot as it is already framed by the sight frame instead of just "on the attacker"
LaserMax makes them for the Glock. I have one on my 21SF and 23. Not only are they quick to acquire, you can be on target even if you cannot get the gun to eye level, like shooting across your body or other awkward positions.
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One: How much dinero?
Two: what kind of holster and carry set-up do you use? It seems more likely to get hung up than a pistol without the optic.
FQ13
The sight was $299 and the mount was $38; all totaled with shipping around $350. I use a regular Blade Tech holster attached to one of their Tek Lok mounts. I like how I can adjust the ride so that the heel of the butt of the gun is at the top of my belt. As for comfort I have no discomfort carrying it.
Also, since it is mounted on a Glock, I hope you will treat it like a Glock, when you toss it in the truck do it from 20 feet away. I'm really interested how it will hold up to out right abuse.
Tom,
I never treat any of my guns (including the AK) like that. I have dropped it before and it never hurt it but I don't have the wallet nor inclination to deliberately set out to see if I can break it. Your suggestion reminds me of the one put to me about 20 years ago when I bought a 1990 Toyota 4X4 (should have never got rid of that thing...). People wanted me to "prove" how tough it was by sinking it in a mud pit and driving out of it. I told them if I wanted a swamp boat, I would have bought a swamp boat! I told them they should prove to me how tough their trucks were and go sink them up past the mid line of the door and see if they could drive them out. No takers....;D
Why go with a big optic rather than a laser like Crimson Trace? You acquire the target quickly under a stress situation and it is smaller and easier to carry?
I have small hands and I didn't want to add to girth of the grip. But CT grips are outstanding devices!
LaserMax makes them for the Glock. I have one on my 21SF and 23. Not only are they quick to acquire, you can be on target even if you cannot get the gun to eye level, like shooting across your body or other awkward positions.
I looked at the LaserMax but liked the STS better, though the LaserMax clearly is superior in shooting from unorthodox positions.
If Michael B. is reading this, I hope he tells the powers that be at the big gun makers if they can work with Trijicon or C-More to come up with a sight designed to work with their gun and that allows the use of sights will have a big hit. And they should work with a holster manufacturer (Blade Tech) so that a complete solution is developed. I really believe this is the future for handguns.
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what I'd like to see is a holographic sight that was able to be housed in the rear sight, like LaserLyte's rear sight laser, that could project a red dot on a plane with the front sight and the target without the need of a screen.
Don't know if it is possible or, if it is, can it be made that small and have a reasonable price.
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Tom,
I never treat any of my guns (including the AK) like that.
Me either, but I hope you understand what I mean about testing it, by not babying it because it has an optic.
Treat it exactly the same as you would with out the sight.
I really want to know how it holds zero, I've been following Gabe Suarez's trials, but he only mentioned it once since he started,
His experience was pretty much the same as yours, that it works pretty darn well.
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I carried a XD .45 loved that gun should've never sold it. But I found a new one I want.
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Although technology marches on, and sight systems get smaller, more durable and battery life extended, I like the Laser so far, FA your set up has no back up, like you said point shooting, at 21' ok if you practice and believe, the laser provides a quick shot, and if it go's t's up, you still have iron sights, having a co witness sight, very cool, especially if tritium is involved. The only sight system I really believe in is Aimpoint, extremely durable, extremely long battery life, so you can leave it on, pick it up and it is on, ready to go, change batteries at the appropriate time and your good to go. Competition is a different game, and it is a game normally, There are extreme games that might truely test your equipment, and give it a real chance to fail, when you need it. My game guns are just that, my 3 gun AR, has 2 sighting systems, a 2.5x8 with an illuminated reticle, and a Tasco optima, 2 chances to fail, but too heavy for normal SD. This is a good subject, that will change over time as technology progresses.
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Remember the Terminators laser equiped 1911 in the first movie ?
I was the size of a decent rifle scope, now they have them for the Kel Tec.
Tech does indeed march on.
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Remember the Terminators laser equiped 1911 in the first movie ?
I was the size of a decent rifle scope, now they have them for the Kel Tec.
Tech does indeed march on.
I was thinking about that also...along with nearly every handgun in Predator 2.
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what I'd like to see is a holographic sight that was able to be housed in the rear sight,
Solus, they had that back in the mid 90's.. it was called an EPT or EPC or something.. I have one in a box of crap somewhere... WAYYY too small of a window to be of any use.
*****
Comparing a dot and a Laser is apples to oranges.... two different things for two different situations, used in two different ways.
A Laser is really a Tertiary aiming device, especially good for when you cannot reach a proper shooting position (extended, etc) or for when there is no contrast for proper sight use and your need for precision at the time would normally call for sighted fire.
A red-dot is a replacement Secondary aiming device for use when your need for precision dictates some type of sight. It replaces "iron" sights.
As always, primary aiming in defensive shooting should be done with proper & consistent positioning of the firearm while your focus is on the threat... kinesthetic Alignment.
-RJP
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what I'd like to see is a holographic sight that was able to be housed in the rear sight, like LaserLyte's rear sight laser, that could project a red dot on a plane with the front sight and the target without the need of a screen.
Don't know if it is possible or, if it is, can it be made that small and have a reasonable price.
http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/01/the-new-trijicon-rmr-a.html
When I heard that Trijicon had redesigned the RMR to include an adjustment mechanism I got a little worried. The main reason I had looked at the Trijicon RMR in the first place for handgun applications was that it had no adjustments or on-off switches to get messed up in daily concealed carry. I asked our Trijicon representative about this at SHOT Show. His answer was to reach in his bag and give me one to work with and test. That is what I like about these guys...they put their money where their mouth is.
RM07_additional_thumb So I brought the RMR home and promptlyinstalled it on one of our in-house TSD Glocks. This one was an all Lone Wolf weapon slide and frame. It was worked over by our TSD staff and finished the slide in desert tan. The RMR popped on easily and tightened down with no issues. TSD is the first to ever mount one of these on a handgun.
First order of things was to get used to how the unit worked. On the left side and right side are strong pressure pads to increase and decrease dot intensity. The dot size has been reduced to 6.5 MOA. I set the brightness level to work with the ambient light and holstered the empty pistol. I worked through my hour long dry practice session. Drawing from our Seraphim holster, the dot intensity did not change at all, showing that the pressure needed to change the settings is more than what may be likely in holster carry. Nice.
IMG_1120 That done we worked with the settings. There are several and the brightest setting is quite bright that even in the strong mile high AZ sun, it was sufficiently bright.
The highest setting will use up battery life very quickly so its not wise toleave it at that setting. The lower settings are sufficient for low light use, and even workable with our night vision devices.
Nice again.
The Trijicon site says this about the Adjustable LED:
"Developed to improve precision and accuracy with any style or caliber of weapon, the Trijicon RMR™ (Ruggedized Miniature Reflex) is designed to be as durable as the legendary ACOG. The RM06 and RM08 are LED sights powered by a standard CR2032 battery. Housed in rugged forged aluminum, the RMR is extremely tough yet lightweight. New easy-to-use adjusters with audible clicks allow for quick windage and elevation adjustments.
With eight available brightness settings, the reticle can be manually adjusted by pressing the plus or minus buttons on either side of the unit. To switch to auto adjust mode simply press both buttons simultaneously and release. To save battery life turn the optic off by pressing both buttons simultaneously and holding for 3 seconds.
The new Trijicon RMR™ is tougher than any alternative and suitable for military, law enforcement and hunting applications."
Magnification 1x
Bullet Drop Compensator No
Length (In) 45mm
Weight (oz) 1.2 oz w/Battery
Illumination Source 3V Lithium Battery
Reticle Pattern 6.5 MOA Dot
Day Reticle Color Red
Night Reticle Color Red
Bindon Aiming Concept n
Adjustment @ 100 yards (clicks/in) 1.0
Housing Material Forged Aluminum
We should be getting our first delivery of these in a few weeks -
TRIJICON ADJUSTABLE RMR
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nice
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They are getting very close.
I was just thinking the other day that using a guild rod laser and then a low profile EOTech type red dot would count as back up for a failing electronic device. Wouldn't it?
It looks like this one is almost low enough to provide co-witness with the iron sights too. Wonder if they could make it lower down the center by making it a bit higher on the outside left and right edges.
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Solus, they had that back in the mid 90's.. it was called an EPT or EPC or something.. I have one in a box of crap somewhere... WAYYY too small of a window to be of any use.
*****
Comparing a dot and a Laser is apples to oranges.... two different things for two different situations, used in two different ways.
A Laser is really a Tertiary aiming device, especially good for when you cannot reach a proper shooting position (extended, etc) or for when there is no contrast for proper sight use and your need for precision at the time would normally call for sighted fire.
A red-dot is a replacement Secondary aiming device for use when your need for precision dictates some type of sight. It replaces "iron" sights.
As always, primary aiming in defensive shooting should be done with proper & consistent positioning of the firearm while your focus is on the threat... kinesthetic Alignment.
-RJP
What I was getting at is the reported ability of a holographic image to be projected in mid air without any screen or window needed.
If that would be possible to house it in the rear sight, then you would have both iron sights and a red dot type sight with no screen to be damaged or adding to bulk.
Having a laser in the same unit would provide everything you need with the downside of having all your eggs in one basket.
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Remember the old Weaver "Quick point" ?
I would like to see that updated . Shrink it and replace the red "wire" with a Fiber Optic or Tritium F/O.
All the benefits of a red dot with no batteries, in a nearly unbreakable very rugged package.