The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: tt11758 on December 02, 2010, 05:19:14 PM
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I got this in my email this afternoon:
The Real Reasons Why We Shouldn’t Arm Teens
Dear Tom,
Monday night, I was sitting with Jim, watching the television, when news broke that a 15 year-old boy with a gun had taken 23 students and one teacher hostage in a Wisconsin high school.
I was reminded that teens are impulsive and don't always have the life-experiences needed to make sound judgments. I can't understand why the NRA thinks it's a good idea to arm teens.
Paul recently wrote to you letting you know about the lawsuit brought by an 18-year-old and the NRA to give 18-20 year-olds a constitutional right to carry loaded, concealed weapons in public.
I need your help today in fighting this life-threatening NRA lawsuit.
Studies show that individuals under the age of 21 often lack the same ability as adults to "govern impulsivity, judgment, planning for the future, and foresight of consequences." And arrests for murder, non-negligent homicides, and other violent crimes peak from ages 18 to 20.
So, again I ask, why is the NRA working so hard to arm teens? Perhaps expanding the youth market makes good financial sense for the interests of the gun manufacturers and distributors?
As an organization that consistently stands up to the NRA in the courts, your Brady Center is fighting to protect sane gun laws across the country, and we need your help.
I hope I can count on you to support the Brady Center with a tax-deductible donation today.
Please act now — help us protect life-saving gun laws — and make a tax-deductible gift to the Brady Center today.
Sincerely,
Sarah Brady, Chair
Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence
How does making it legal for 18-21 year old adults to exercise their Constitutional rights have a SINGLE GODDAMN THING to do with a 15 year old taking a gun into a school. Hell, I'm 52 years old, have a permit to carry weapons, and I can't LEGALLY carry into a school.
Things that make you go WTF?!?
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You should send them a check for a penny, that way it actually costs them money to cash it.
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18-21 yo's can serve their country and possibly give their life but can't carry. 15 yo's can have sex and possibly a kid/s but they "don't have the life experiences to make good judgements!" They have the experience but choose not to use good judgement IMHO!
Had she been abducted by aliens and just returned? Who does she think she's shitting?
Richard
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Age has nothing to do with maturity. How old is Sarah? See.
I do give her and every other victim of crime a little slack to get through the grieving process, but thirty years?
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Seeing the Brady Agenda, get exiled to a true minority, as every poll conducted can't even be skewed to reveal that MOST Americans are reasonably pro-gun, and pro 2nd Amend, desperation requires any and all action to rile the grass eaters.
Please fwd. to Sarah:
"You may not like guns, and choose not to own one. That is your right. You might not believe in God. That is your choice. However, if someone is breaking into your home the first two things you are going to do are: 1) Call someone with a gun. 2) Pray they get there in time."
An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous regularity.
"After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it."
William Burroughs
"Anti-gun folks don't want women to have a gun and to use that gun to protect themselves from an ex boyfriend or husband who beats the hell out of her. They say "An order of protection will protect you" That is the most asinine statement anyone could say to a bruised woman with black eyes, broken nose and teeth knocked out."
PackinMama
Happy Holidays Sarah,....
I hope Santa brings you a big box of "don't you get it yet?"
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Studies show that individuals under the age of 21 often lack the same ability as adults to "govern impulsivity, judgment, planning for the future, and foresight of consequences."
And yet they VOTE!
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And yet they VOTE!
They didn't use too.
The best part about Sarah brady is... she is a long time GOP member.
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Sarah Brady is in favor of rape, robbery, and assault.
I say Hinckley shot the wrong one.
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I wonder about the Brady's finances. They may be independently well off. They may have receive a stipend from the government for Jim's injuries while in the employ of the White House. I what I suspect is that
Sarah ( and you do have to feel for her having an invalid spouse) is making money with her "cause". It may or may not really matter to her, whether she's logical, or right or wrong. It may be she's only motivate by emotion over her husband's condition.
She may truly believe all she says, but then again, she has been known to buy guns and transport them across state lines.
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She gets lots of money from the Joyce foundation and other Soros fronts.
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Studies show that individuals under the age of 21 often lack the same ability as adults to "govern impulsivity, judgment, planning for the future, and foresight of consequences
Would it be safe to assume that Sarah & Co. return any contributions from those under 21?
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Would it be safe to assume that Sarah & Co. return any contributions from those under 21?
Magic eight ball says "doubtful". ;D
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Okay, this is going to be a very unpopular viewpoint, however I will submit myself to public rebuke. I, believe it or not, DO agree that CCW permits shouldn't be issued to those under 21. I know, I know, if you can go to war and die for your country, you should be able to drink, buy a handgun, and carry a concealed weapon. I understand that logic and felt the same way until I got older and considered my own maturity at that age. Beyond the maturity factor, my reasoning is this, there are a significant number of hurdles to jump, even in "shall issue" states like mine, in order to obtain a permit. Background checks and such are supposed to keep, so called, unworthy individuals from obtaining said permits. Unless you have committed a MAJOR crime, juvenile records are sealed, however, and wouldn't apply to the application process for a CCW permit. Three years may not be much, but it would allow a little bit of time, for someone that can't behave or think prudently, to obtain a criminal record. Should we really make it comparatively easier for a young applicant, than an older one, when a poorly thought out action on their part could effect all of us that safely and responsibly carry a concealed weapon? Why even consider something that could potentially give the antis a vast increase in fuel for their fire? I will now brace myself for, what I'm sure will be, a barrage of dissenting opinions. Please, be gentle, I bruise easily. ;D
Swoop
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No ones gonna jump on you Swoop...
I will add this though. I was the ripe old age of about 13 or 14 when I walked over to the mall and bought my Western Field 20 ga from Monkey Wards. I also carried a handgun pretty regularly before I turned 21 back in the seventies in Northern California, exposed, not concealed. I didn't buy the gun myself and I don't know that I could back then. It was a loaner from a friend but anyone with any sense won't venture into lion country unarmed. The townies and the local Barney Fifes never asked how old I was. Hell, I didn't even have a valid drivers license at the time, military personnel didn't have to renew them back in the day.
I think it depends on the individual. I've handled firearms as long as I can remember and my father would tan my hide if I did anything unsafely. Old lessons are hard to shake off!
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You can make laws around the "depends on the individual." you have to go to the lowest level.
While I know a bunch of kids that would be perfectly fine with guns, I also know a bunch of 40 years that are not fine with guns.
Then again I also think 16 is too young to drive, it should be 18.
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I don't disagree with you TAB....
Big difference in the way kids of the 50's, 60's and 70's were raised. We had parents, family structure, rules, consequences and punishments if we strayed from the straight and narrow line drawn. Today, kids crap all over their parents, teachers, police any other authority that gets in their way.
I'm generalizing here, I know there are exceptions..... ;)
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Juvenile records are NOT sealed, Had a friend who went on a joy ride with a buddy of his when he was 15, He didn't know His friend had taken his mothers car without permission . They were stopped in New Hampshire and arrested/charged with grand theft auto.He went to court and told his case the Judge gave him probation with the usual "stay out of trouble until you're 18 and all charges will be dropped" Fast forward 15 years and He applied for his NY state CCW permit. He got a call asking him to stop in to the Sheriffs office. When he got there He was asked why he lied on his application, When he said he didn't they asked him if he was arrested in N.H. when he was 15, He said Yes, but he though that the records were sealed, They told him that the records are not sealed for them and that when a LE agency asks if you have ever been arrested you had better answer correctly. He did finally get his CCW, but he had to do some leg work to get a copy of the disposition of his case.
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I don't disagree with any of the last posts, including FQ's . Times have indeed changed. Not for the better with a large portion of this countries young folk. :-[
My son turns 16 in March. He has his learning permit. Drives with his Mother in the car. Under NC law, next March, he's free to go it alone on the highways. :-\
Does he have the life exp. and maturity we had at 16? Sadly, No..... Previous generations, grew up quickly out of direct necessity. Our parents relied on us to be the "man/woman" of the house, in their absence, and they meant it; and we knew they meant it.
The consequences were severe if we screwed up, and "most" of us learned quickly. Today, it's simply not the same in all cases. I trust my son with firearms, he knows the rules, they are imprinted on his brain. However, that is only one aspect of his life. Girls, cars, ego, being young, and a living forever mindset, with no real comprehension of consequences can create stupidity. ( it did for me for awhile).
I hate to say or admit it, but a CCW for an 18 year old, in today's day and age, is worrisome to me. Not a blanket opinion, just an observation. Tempers in a teenager, can defy common sense.
Perhaps, it is possible, if more training and certifiable req's are met for those under 21. NRA, local gun shops holding hands on training, pro instructors offering a class specific to the 18-21 year old. etc,...
I'm not against it, I just think that age group needs "more" than what we had growing up.
Sorry for the rant.
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He should not have lied on his app.
the info in juv records varry from state to state.
edit,
about your kid getting his DL. Most states still require either a guardian to sign or them to be emancipated. Either way most states require insurance, which they can not legally get with out the above.
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Explain to an underage, young Marine or Troop coming home from a couple of tours in country that they cannot legally carry something they've had strapped to their thigh for several months or years.
Laws are made to control the unlawful. My permits say; "All Lawful Purposes".....not self defense, hunting, et al....our Constitution has no age requirements.
On driving....I say that kids should begin training earlier rather than later, as we did. I took Drivers Ed at fifteen and by my sixteenth birthday, I'd already been driving for a solid year. I'd never send a kid off to college having just gotten a DL....
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There is a huge diffrence between a kid driving with a parent and them on thier own.
I have np with them getting a permit I just don't think they should be out there by themselfs at 16.
Its not so much the change in kids over the years as it is the road ways.
I've been driving about 15 years, and I've been hit 16 times. all but 2 of them I was stoped at a red light for a extending period of time.
One I was backed into while driving in a partking lot, the other they side swiped me on the free way. out of the 16x 15 have been women. most of which were on cell phones at the tiem they hit me.
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Parents have to be involved. I was driving something, mini-bikes, motorcycles, my dads (later mine) '65 Mustang when I was a kid on the farm, the tractors at my Uncles....etc....
My daughter was driving my car in parking lots when she was 14 or so. State law requires that she take the "State Approved" bullshit course here but I'm the one responsible for teaching her to drive. When she turned 16-1/2 she was more than adequately prepared to drive on her own. Had I left it to the State of Massachusetts, she'd have died the first week!
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I have a inlaw( great uncles wife) who at 16, ran a red light and tboned a cop during her driving test.
She has never driven since.
;D
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Count me with Tim and TAB on this, while the average 18-21 year old is not mature enough, There may currently be,(depending on state ) and should be, an exemption for military personnel, (You can enlist in the Guard at 16 )
As a side note, TAB can check if this is still the case, but in 2000 when I lived in Ca. some of the more remote counties issued an open carry permit to 16 year olds for Ranch work.
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Count me with Tim and TAB on this, while the average 18-21 year old is not mature enough, There may currently be,(depending on state ) and should be, an exemption for military personnel, (You can enlist in the Guard at 16 )
As a side note, TAB can check if this is still the case, but in 2000 when I lived in Ca. some of the more remote counties issued an open carry permit to 16 year olds for Ranch work.
Its perfecly legal to CC on private proerty at any age.
There are some rare execptions to where people under the age of 21 can still get a CCW in CA.
What drives me nuts is a LEO that is employed anywhere in the US can legally carry every where in US, even at 18.
One of the good things that the local SO does do, you can not carry off duty unless you go thru the CCW process. I think thats great, on some many levels.
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Its perfecly legal to CC on private proerty at any age.
There are some rare execptions to where people under the age of 21 can still get a CCW in CA.
What drives me nuts is a LEO that is employed anywhere in the US can legally carry every where in US, even at 18.
One of the good things that the local SO does do, you can not carry off duty unless you go thru the CCW process. I think thats great, on some many levels.
It was nearly 11 years ago, but the one I specifically remember was Mojave county, my understanding was that it was aimed at youngsters who might be working in an "Open range/ Public land setting, rather than strictly on "private property".
I may not agree with the requirements of various states, but I do agree that everyone who is allowed to carry meet the same requirements regardless of profession.
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Most of the execptions are results of jobs that require you to be amred. Most of which are DOJ based, but you are not a sworn officer.
There are alos biz execptions, but those generally only apply to "one the clock" times. thats something completely diffrent.
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Most of the execptions are results of jobs that require you to be amred. Most of which are DOJ based, but you are not a sworn officer.
There are alos biz execptions, but those generally only apply to "one the clock" times. thats something completely diffrent.
You're the one on the scene, I'm working from memory, on this ( BUT NOTHING ELSE ;D ) I will defer to you.
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CCW in CA is kind of a joke.
All the state says is:
you have to be able to legally own a fire arm, be approved by the county sheriff and take a class that is no less then 8 hours, but no longer then 16.
That's it. The sheriff can pretty much do what he wants.
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CCW in CA is kind of a joke.
All the state says is:
you have to be able to legally own a fire arm, be approved by the county sheriff and take a class that is no less then 8 hours, but no longer then 16.
That's it. The sheriff can pretty much do what he wants.
In Alameda County, where I lived what he wanted to do was charge $3000. :o >:(
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In sacramento county, which is where I use to live, you basicly had to be a faimly member or a friend of the sheriff to get a CCW if you were not a DOJ/LEO employee.
Infact he gave one to his biz partner that was not only a felon, but he had domestic violance convictions so he was screwed 2x.
The joke around town was you had to be giving the sheriff a bj to get one.
there was only 7 non leos in the county that had them, when the old sheriff retired( he was a scumbag)4 of those went away.
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Explain to an underage, young Marine or Troop coming home from a couple of tours in country that they cannot legally carry something they've had strapped to their thigh for several months or years.
Laws are made to control the unlawful. My permits say; "All Lawful Purposes".....not self defense, hunting, et al....our Constitution has no age requirements.
I completely understand your point and have no problem whatsoever with an exemption for military personnel. They, unlike others between 18 and 21, have demonstrated that they have both maturity and self control. As I said in my original post, juvenile records in my state ARE sealed, but according to Majer, they aren't in NY. ("Joyriding" would be considered a serious offense and wouldn't be sealed here either, though.) While the Constitution may not include age requirements, I don't think it's asking too much to allow these civilian "kids" 3 years to either prove or disprove their ability to function within the law. If the percentage of CCW permit holders involved in violent crimes were to increase due to the inclusion of the 18 - 21 age group, thereby threatening our ability to carry legally, would we not then scream from the mountain tops that they should never have been given the privilege of concealed carry? Make no mistake, a privilege is exactly what it is. We have the right to keep and bare arms, but I remember no mention of a right to conceal them. Just my opinion though, and I'm sure it's not even worth $0.02. :)
Swoop
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I don't disagree with any of the last posts, including FQ's .
:'( I'm not sure if you were referring to my post or not, but if so, should I be offended? :'(
Swoop1 who will never again feel right due to the mistaken identity :P
Just kiddin' FQ!
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I completely understand your point and have no problem whatsoever with an exemption for military personnel. They, unlike others between 18 and 21, have demonstrated that they have both maturity and self control. As I said in my original post, juvenile records in my state ARE sealed, but according to Majer, they aren't in NY. ("Joyriding" would be considered a serious offense and wouldn't be sealed here either, though.) While the Constitution may not include age requirements, I don't think it's asking too much to allow these civilian "kids" 3 years to either prove or disprove their ability to function within the law. If the percentage of CCW permit holders involved in violent crimes were to increase due to the inclusion of the 18 - 21 age group, thereby threatening our ability to carry legally, would we not then scream from the mountain tops that they should never have been given the privilege of concealed carry? Make no mistake, a privilege is exactly what it is. We have the right to keep and bare arms, but I remember no mention of a right to conceal them. Just my opinion though, and I'm sure it's not even worth $0.02. :)
Swoop
I disagree with that statement, while most do, there is still a bunch that don't. Perfect example in basic ( now this is the USCG, not the army or maries) there were guys that were average 1500 push ups a day, becuase they could not keep thier trap shut/do what they were told.
I can give you example after example of how miltary personal do very dump things.
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I disagree with that statement, while most do, there is still a bunch that don't. Perfect example in basic ( now this is the USCG, not the army or maries) there were guys that were average 1500 push ups a day, becuase they could not keep thier trap shut/do what they were told.
I can give you example after example of how miltary personal do very dump things.
The few are really no criteria to judge the majority, after all, we had a Senator express concern about an Island tipping over.
You can find endless numbers of stupid acts by any age group.
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The few are really no criteria to judge the majority, after all, we had a Senator express concern about an Island tipping over.
You can find endless numbers of stupid acts by any age group.
We have to write laws for every one, which means we have to take it down to the lowest level.
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Okay, TAB, I guess I should have been perfectly clear and said that the majority of military personnel have attained a greater degree of maturity and self control than the average civilian of similar age.
Swoop
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Monday night, I was sitting with Jim, watching the television, when news broke that a 15 year-old boy with a gun had taken 23 students and one teacher hostage in a Wisconsin high school.
Dance in their misery Sarah, you know you love to!
They should pass a law that makes taking a gun to school and holding people hostage ILLEGAL. There, problem solved. ::) ::)
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Count me with Tim and TAB on this, while the average 18-21 year old is not mature enough, There may currently be,(depending on state ) and should be, an exemption for military personnel, (You can enlist in the Guard at 16 )
I agree. An 18yr old in the military has far more training and discipline in handling a firearm than the typical 18yr old. I'd vote to give any 18yr old a CCW if they go through the same military training. If not, I'd rather leave it at 21 and have an exception for military.
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Monday night, I was sitting with Jim, watching the television, when news broke that a 15 year-old boy with a gun had taken 23 students and one teacher hostage in a Wisconsin high school.
Dance in their misery Sarah, you know you love to!
They should pass a law that makes taking a gun to school and holding people hostage ILLEGAL. There, problem solved. ::) ::)
Man, but we're good at drifting a thread. ;D
My initial point was simply, how the hell does the ability or inability of an 19-20 year old person being able to legally carry a gun have ONE DAMN THING TO DO WITH a 15 year old taking his class hostage, shooting a projector and then offing himself?
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I have heard that research shows that the part of the brain that enables one to appreciate the consequences of one's actions does not become fully developed until around 25.
It also seems that younger folks are less responsible and respectful than they were "back in my day". I know part of that might just be me being an old foggy, as I know adults at the time would have said the same thing about my generation of teenagers.....
However, I do wonder if it might just be that "kids" aren't becoming responsible as early as they used to simply because they are not required to? I mean NOTHING will make you aware of the consequences of your actions than a good dose of those consequences, behind the wood pile, for instance.
In "olden days" 13 year olds in this country were starting families and taking them across the frontier driving a wagon in a train.
Old laws all around the country have been changed from listing the age of consent as 13.
I know that the amount of education required to be a capable adult in the world today is very much greater than in the past, so I can understand where entry into adulthood has been delayed. When I was in the Army (1965), NCOs were worried about new requirements that they would need either an 8th grade education or HS graduation (I don't remember which) to be eligible for promotion above E6. At the time it was not at all uncommon for career soldiers to have only a 6th grade education.
And that was not an uncommon situation for the generation before mine (I was born in 1947).
A 6th grade education would bring someone to about age 13, by the way. So I can see how "studenthood" would be extended until the completion of HS, age 18+.
Now what the problem is is that most of the 18yr olds don't have anywhere near the increased knowledge that the extra years in school should have provided. And if you look at "common sense" and responsibility, they fall way behind the 13 year old 6th grade grad who is about to start working for a living.
So basically, what I am wondering is... Do folks "come of age" when they are required to do so by having to face the consequences for their actions? And does not holding them responsible at an earlier age actually extend childhood until they are finally held responsible.
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Man, but we're good at drifting a thread. ;D
Nothing like the thread drift on TAB's Boat Beauties post where we ended up talking about the phonetic alphabet and different meanings for the word jigs.....if any thread needed not to be drifted, it was that one ;D ;D ;D
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From Solus
"Now what the problem is is that most of the 18yr olds don't have anywhere near the increased knowledge that the extra years in school should have provided. And if you look at "common sense" and responsibility, they fall way behind the 13 year old 6th grade grad who is about to start working for a living."
Judgment is derived from experience and responsibility . If you are being coddled by parents and teachers for another 5 years you are being deprived of that experience therefore you will be far less mature, less responsible and show worse judgment at the older age.
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Back on topic....
BOOBIES!!!
boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies.........
and butts too!
:D
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BOOBIES!!!
boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies.........
Ahhhh! Balm for frazzled nerves, like the sound of gentle surf or light summer rain. After perusing the thread about Pelosi's constituency, I needed that. 8) Thanks, Timothy!
Swoop
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Back on topic....
BOOBIES!!!
boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies, boobies.........
and butts too!
:D
In a thread about Sarah Brady that comment makes you one sick mot*&r f*#ker.
:-X
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DOH!
Wrong thread, redirected to proper channel....
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I don't know what part of the brain covers maturity or self control, I do know that a leather belt strikes the human body at 26-35 mph, makes a distinctive "slapping sound" and teaches maturity and self control that carries on through life...
Physical pain and a lesson learned...kinda stays with you... Sometimes having the "stupid" slapped out of you works. (For some),.. ::)
Seems many, not all, but many of today's 18-21 year olds, haven't had such "lessons"....
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I don't know what part of the brain covers maturity or self control, I do know that a leather belt strikes the human body at 26-35 mph, makes a distinctive "slapping sound" and teaches maturity and self control that carries on through life...
Physical pain and a lesson learned...kinda stays with you... Sometimes having the "stupid" slapped out of you works. (For some),.. ::)
Seems many, not all, but many of today's 18-21 year olds, haven't had such "lessons"....
We already drifted off topic so I will mention that it was always the noise that got me worse than actually being hit, my Dad had this technique of doubling the belt over and "popping" it that was far more intimidating than the couple swats I would get. ;D
I still hate that sound ;D
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We already drifted off topic so I will mention that it was always the noise that got me worse than actually being hit, my Dad had this technique of doubling the belt over and "popping" it that was far more intimidating than the couple swats I would get. ;D
I still hate that sound ;D
Apparently our dads were brothers. ;D
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We already drifted off topic so I will mention that it was always the noise that got me worse than actually being hit, my Dad had this technique of doubling the belt over and "popping" it that was far more intimidating than the couple swats I would get. ;D
I still hate that sound ;D
A warning note. Old girfriend and I were up for a night of kinky fun. Fuzzy handcuffs included. I did the belt popping thing. Then, it became panicked eyes, tears and angst. >:( Be careful what you do to your kids. It still want to track that SOB down and shoot him. No sexual abuse, just a bit free with the belt. Still, no 24 year old woman should "hate that sound" that much. I'd thought a bit of harmless fun, childood trauma for her. It still pisses me off 15 years later. :'(
FQ13
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Just remember FQ, neither she or I wound up in jail, many of my class mates have.
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I had heard a while back she was about ready to check out from lung cancer. Has anyone else heard anything else about her, health wise? Bill T.