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Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: Marshal Halloway on February 23, 2008, 02:06:35 AM

Title: Liberal fascism
Post by: Marshal Halloway on February 23, 2008, 02:06:35 AM

I've said it before and I say it again - politics makes me sick...

Especially now when I see a country with some very dark clouds in the horizon. Liberals and democrats and a growing number of undecided voters are moving towards a politician with empty words and promises of change. The Obarama - the new Messiah for those who think that government and bigger government is the only solution to all problems in society.

Individual freedom is at stake more than ever.

20 years ago and for the most part because of my pro gun views, I changed from being (and this was in Norway) a social democrat to becoming a conservative. I was raised and educated by family and people who built a country from the ruins of WWII, who believed that the state had more responsibility of taking care of the individuals than the individuals themselves. They succeeded in getting the country back on its feet, but the success also turned the social democrats into a group  that could not trust the people they were supposed to serve. Power became more important than the freedom and peace they wanted to restore in the first place.

Now I witness the fact that  a socialist platform is gaining popularity in this country. Not because the people want bigger government and federal control, but because some democrats have found a way into the hearts of a portion of the population who I honestly think are not able to think for themselves, who don't have a clue about history and do not know that history has the strong ability to repeat itself.

Freedom loving people in this country, and I consider law abiding gun owners the most responsible and freedom loving people in the world, are all disillusioned by the fact that conservatives can no longer get the message across and do no longer have a leader who can fight against a secular-progressive movement.

In January, Jonah Goldberg, founding editor of “National Review Online", published a book called Liberal Fascism. I've read it. It brings the history of liberalism, socialism and social democracy into the limelight based on historical facts. Facts that I didn't even consider; how much fascists and liberals have in common from a historical standpoint. It's scary. This is a book that should be given to all liberals out there and especially to all those out there now leaning towards and fainting in the presence of Obama.

I recommend it and when you have read it, give it to a liberal. I will.


Liberal Fascism, by Jonah Goldberg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FLiberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics%2Fdp%2F0385511841%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1203752951%26sr%3D8-1&tag=cascityinassociw&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: gunman42782 on February 23, 2008, 03:19:16 AM
I put the book on my "wish list".  But I already know the liberals are fascists.  But they divert everyone's attention away from the fact by calling all Republicans "Nazis"!
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: CLP on February 23, 2008, 09:23:06 AM
Well said Marshal'

  I think all of us on all the gunboards are very uneasy right now.  Its like seeing a tidlewave coming in the distance knowing we can't do a thing about it.  Just trying to prepare to survive the coming years.
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: Hazcat on February 23, 2008, 10:42:34 AM
Thanks, Marshal,

I wish more people like you who have been in a liberals fantasy country would stand up and speak.  You have first hand knowledge that it doesn't work (at least not well) and that you give up too much for the little you receive.
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: DonWorsham on February 23, 2008, 10:48:23 AM
I have it on reserve at two different libraries. Long awaiting list.
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: Pathfinder on February 23, 2008, 11:22:37 AM
I've read a bunch of Jonah Goldberg's writings, mostly his columns. His Mom runs a website called www.Lucianne.com (http://www.Lucianne.com) which is similar to this site in the respect and deference people show. Lots more site pests than here though, usually they get flamed in creative, almost artistic ways. They are strict on site conduct, and will boot your ass for saying, well, ass among other things.

Lucianne Goldberg lives in NYC and is Jewish, and very Conservative - a rarity for both factors these days. Ben Stein excepted, although he lives in CA. Her son gets quoted often, as editor of NRO and author. As Lucianne once said, it's only nepotism when it isn't you're nep!

 ;D
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: Rastus on February 23, 2008, 11:37:21 AM
Well said Marshal'
  I think all of us on all the gunboards are very uneasy right now.  Its like seeing a tidlewave coming in the distance knowing we can't do a thing about it.  Just trying to prepare to survive the coming years.

Who knows, if big time gun control hits, how it will be implemented.  Restricted sales, then no sales, then no way to transfer to heirs?  Anyway...that's my thinking so...to that end, I already set up a trust to purchase supressors so I'm transferring all of my weapons to the trust so that in the future, if the laws change before I pass on, the guns will continue in the trust since they won't have to be transferred upon my death.  Of course, they could just say hand 'em in. 

Remember, when you buy on the NIC's they don't know how many you have purchased.  I bought a long gun once, then wanted a pistol and found out since I did not leave the store premises they could just add it to the form without calling in again.  I would assume doing that intentionally might not be per regulations, but it is an interesting point of regulation, you can have three (?) on the form.

The NIC's forms, when the business closes, are supposed to be sent to a warehouse in Virginia or somewhere...a dealer I know tells me that after 30 days the NIC's check is expunged and he has had cause to go back to get information from NIC's.  Now, who knows what big brother is doing, maybe listening to NIC's and building it's own database?  All I know, is I record every firearm I sell off to an unknown individual and if I ever have a weapon stolen from a vehicle I'll immediately report the stolen #'s.  If they come to pick 'em up one day, that police report and sales record will come in handy....bureacrats are driven by paper, so if you don't have it expect a hassle.
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: Marshal Halloway on February 23, 2008, 11:59:29 AM
Thanks, Marshal,
I wish more people like you who have been in a liberals fantasy country would stand up and speak.  You have first hand knowledge that it doesn't work (at least not well) and that you give up too much for the little you receive.

Actually, part of the "fantasy world" works fine in my old country, because of huge income from exporting oil and gas plus the fact that they have one of the highest income taxes in the world. If it wasn't for oil and gas, Norway would have been bankrupt years ago and they would not be able to "feed the poor".

The US is dependent on other countries when it comes to energy. A country founded on the principles of free economy will not be able to fund the social reforms the liberals want to impose without selling us out and becoming a part of the new world order run by other countries. We are looking at the UN as the government and a US going back to the years before 1776. There's a lot King Georges out there who are just waiting for the secular progressives to do the ground work for them.

Having said all that, there's a lot of rotten eggs on both sides of the party lines. , but most conservatives know that there are no simple solution to any of the problems we are facing. When Obama or Hillary talks about solutions, it sounds like they have invented the wheel and everything will be fine when they start rolling forward from the White House. The saddest part is not the power hungry Obama or Hillary.... it is all those who want to buy this package without looking at what's under the fine wrapping paper.

Did I mention that I hate politics?


 
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: Hazcat on February 23, 2008, 01:52:08 PM
Actually, part of the "fantasy world" works fine in my old country, because of huge income from exporting oil and gas plus the fact that they have one of the highest income taxes in the world. ....

That is exactly what the libs want.  That is why they hate the rich (except for hollywood and Soros).  They want all of our money because they are so much smarter than we are and will spend it better for us. ::)

And yeah, I hate politcs too (poly meaning "many", tics meaning "blood sucking parasites" ;D)
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: pioneer on February 28, 2008, 05:01:33 PM
  I think all of us on all the gunboards are very uneasy right now.  Its like seeing a tidlewave coming in the distance knowing we can't do a thing about it.  Just trying to prepare to survive the coming years.

That's not necessarily so.  There is very much we can do about it.  I for one, am not willing to roll-over and surrender before the first shot is fired.  What we can do is get active and make sure everyone we know with similar views get registered, and votes.  Two things happened in the 2000 elections.  Voter turnout and voting gun owners.  It was a squeeker, but we barely saved the country from the likes of Al Gore.  It has been acknowledged by all concerned, that gun owners made the difference.  The NRA estimates that only 30% of gun owners actually vote.  Imagine the kind of power we would really have if we got active and motivated our brothers and sisters of the gun to actually exercise their right to vote.  Imagine how powerful we could be if we could convince the GOA and the NRA to stop sniping at one another and work together for a change.  We would truly become the "powerful gun lobby" that the left keeps complaining about. 

Too many hunters and trap/skeet shooters don't want to get involved in our cause, because they don't own a pisltol and don't care about "assault weapons."  Too many of them (us?) think that their sport is somehow immune from gun control / registration / confiscation.  Somehow they think that the gun control crowd will leave them alone after the pistols and "assault weapons" are taken care of.  Oh yeah?  Tell that to the people of Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Ireland and England.  Tell that to our Canadian neighbors who are struggling to stop a draconian gun registration scheme.  Gun registration leads to only one thing;  Confiscation.  "They" can't come get 'em, unless "they" know where the guns are.   

The left has already suggested that any rifle with a scope and is able to penetrate police body armor is a "sniper rifle," and should not be allowed.  Already, semi-auto and pump action rifles and shotguns are labeled as "assault" weapons. 

Don't say "That could never happen here."  That's what many victims say ........... afterwards.

It takes money to fight for our rights.  We don't have a "George Soros" to pump millions into our cause.  Join the NRA.  Join the GOA, or the Second Amendment Foundation.   Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.  Join something and put your money where your rights are! 

Yeah, I know, John McCain stinks.  Okay, so he stinks.  Hold your nose.  If you can't bring yourslf to vote FOR McCain, then at least vote AGAINST Obama.   

http://www.nra.org/
http://www.gunowners.org/
http://www.ccrkba.org/
http://www.jpfo.org/

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/pioneer461/NRA/join20nra.jpg) (http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/pioneer461/Flags%20and%20Icons/356074_1738066.jpg)
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: tombogan03884 on February 29, 2008, 01:59:12 AM
Pioneer, I agree with everything you said,EXCEPT about McCain. Some one else said it first, but it is possible that the Manchurian candidate could be WORSE than Obama or Clinton. If either of them attempt any restrictions then MOST republicans will resist simply because they belong to the other party, same with Civic and Conservative Religious Leaders, HOWEVER, if that RINO rat is pres and tries the same thing, (which he has in the past IE "gun show loophole") the resistance will be shattered because he's NOT from the other party. In congress and the senate party loyalty is what gets you on committees. Committees are where the pork is, and most of those parasites would not be there if not for the pork. Even Jews and Muslims eat up that kind.
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: Rastus on March 02, 2008, 09:57:50 PM
Pioneer, I agree with everything you said,EXCEPT about McCain. Some one else said it first, but it is possible that the Manchurian candidate could be WORSE than Obama or Clinton. If either of them attempt any restrictions then MOST republicans will resist simply because they belong to the other party, same with Civic and Conservative Religious Leaders, HOWEVER, if that RINO rat is pres and tries the same thing, (which he has in the past IE "gun show loophole") the resistance will be shattered because he's NOT from the other party. In ................"
Well said. 

I think looking at the invasion passing over our southern border and the Amicus Brief of D.C. vs. Heller, and a couple of other things, that the traitor Bush has done more harm than Gore or Kerry would have (you have no idea how much it hurts to say that).  Everyone knew where Gore and Kerry were coming from.....but Bush sold us out.  "Read my lips...", G.W, err, no G.H Bush....oh well, fruit falling close to the tree trunk or whatever.

I thought I was doing the right thing voting for the lesser of two evils and voted for GW.  The lesser of two evils is still evil....as was so aptly put by Michael Bane. 

I think, as much as I dislike the Democratic candidates, that McCain has the potential for greater harm....once again, I'd rather get punched in the face then stabbed in the back.  And it's not that I think I can avoid either, it is just I prefer getting punched in the face....something about backstabbing by "one of your own" that I don't like. 

If McCain is the candidate, I'm staying home because I won't vote for him and can't vote for the Democratic candidate.

By the way, Tom, we could do a lot for airport security if only we required some flights to be "pork eaters" and others to not be.  The Muslims have some kind of cleansing ritual for eating pork....not too likely to fly into buildings with oinker grease in their guts....
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: tombogan03884 on March 02, 2008, 10:20:27 PM
By the way, Tom, we could do a lot for airport security if only we required some flights to be "pork eaters" and others to not be.  The Muslims have some kind of cleansing ritual for eating pork....not too likely to fly into buildings with oinker grease in their guts....


Fly El Al whenever possible, those Israeli's think like us. The best way to protect yourself is to PROTECT  yourself.
Please don't stay home on election day ! Write in Ron Paul, even if you HATE all his other positions, he is solid on the second amendment . Even if he does not win, every vote he gets increases the impact of the message to the "major parties" that we are sick of them.
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: Pathfinder on March 02, 2008, 10:37:27 PM
Well said. 

I think looking at the invasion passing over our southern border and the Amicus Brief of D.C. vs. Heller, and a couple of other things, that the traitor Bush has done more harm than Gore or Kerry would have (you have no idea how much it hurts to say that).  Everyone knew where Gore and Kerry were coming from.....but Bush sold us out.  "Read my lips...", G.W, err, no G.H Bush....oh well, fruit falling close to the tree trunk or whatever.

I thought I was doing the right thing voting for the lesser of two evils and voted for GW.  The lesser of two evils is still evil....as was so aptly put by Michael Bane. 

I think, as much as I dislike the Democratic candidates, that McCain has the potential for greater harm....once again, I'd rather get punched in the face then stabbed in the back.  And it's not that I think I can avoid either, it is just I prefer getting punched in the face....something about backstabbing by "one of your own" that I don't like. 

If McCain is the candidate, I'm staying home because I won't vote for him and can't vote for the Democratic candidate.

By the way, Tom, we could do a lot for airport security if only we required some flights to be "pork eaters" and others to not be.  The Muslims have some kind of cleansing ritual for eating pork....not too likely to fly into buildings with oinker grease in their guts....

The reality is that they will all be bad, unimaginably so. As we were blindsided by Bush and the SG brief, we will be blindsided by everything that any of these people do while in the White House. I am of the opinion that the last 16 years have just been a prelude, and that we cannot even imagine what kinds of bad stuff will come out of Washington in the next 8 years, just that it will be bad.
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: tombogan03884 on March 03, 2008, 01:55:14 AM
The reality is that they will all be bad, unimaginably so. As we were blindsided by Bush and the SG brief, we will be blindsided by everything that any of these people do while in the White House. I am of the opinion that the last 16 years have just been a prelude, and that we cannot even imagine what kinds of bad stuff will come out of Washington in the next 8 years, just that it will be bad.


If we go into it not trusting ANYTHING any of those socialists say then HOPEFULLY they won't be able to "blindside" us. SUPREME COURT DECISIONS AND LEGISLATION ARE IRRELEVANT, "RIGHTS" ARE NOT GRANTED BY THE CONSTITUTION, ONLY RECOGNIZED.  The Declaration of independence states "that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights," The Bill of rights simply itemizes the rights in a more specific form, they are not open to interpretation, legislation, regulation, or any other form of infringement. See Miranda v Arizona, "When rights secured by the constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." Cockburn v State of Texas, "The right of the individual to bear arms in defense of the state or himself is absolute. He does not derive it from the Government. It is one of the "high powers" delegated directly to the citizen, and is excepted out of the general powers  of government. A law cannot be passed to infringe upon or impair it, Because it is above the law and independent of lawmaking power.
Those are just 2 examples, many more exist, victim disarmament is illegal as well as immoral. I don't care who gets elected, I ain't surrendering squat, and I intend to be in peoples faces about it. I don't care what kind of socialist dream world some bubble headed ass lives in they do NOT have the right to change my constitutional rights, THAT IS WHY THEY WERE SPECIFIED. If I offend people I can only say "GOOD", if I scare people I can only ask "What do YOU have in mind that my insistence on MY rights scares you.
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: jerry on March 03, 2008, 05:25:52 AM

If we go into it not trusting ANYTHING any of those socialists say then HOPEFULLY they won't be able to "blindside" us. SUPREME COURT DECISIONS AND LEGISLATION ARE IRRELEVANT, "RIGHTS" ARE NOT GRANTED BY THE CONSTITUTION, ONLY RECOGNIZED.  The Declaration of independence states "that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights," The Bill of rights simply itemizes the rights in a more specific form, they are not open to interpretation, legislation, regulation, or any other form of infringement. See Miranda v Arizona, "When rights secured by the constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." Cockburn v State of Texas, "The right of the individual to bear arms in defense of the state or himself is absolute. He does not derive it from the Government. It is one of the "high powers" delegated directly to the citizen, and is excepted out of the general powers  of government. A law cannot be passed to infringe upon or impair it, Because it is above the law and independent of lawmaking power.
Those are just 2 examples, many more exist, victim disarmament is illegal as well as immoral. I don't care who gets elected, I ain't surrendering squat, and I intend to be in peoples faces about it. I don't care what kind of socialist dream world some bubble headed ass lives in they do NOT have the right to change my constitutional rights, THAT IS WHY THEY WERE SPECIFIED. If I offend people I can only say "GOOD", if I scare people I can only ask "What do YOU have in mind that my insistence on MY rights scares you.

I say Tom Bogan for U.S. Supreme Court Justice.  You think Obama will nominate him?
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: Pathfinder on March 03, 2008, 05:44:11 AM

If we go into it not trusting ANYTHING any of those socialists say then HOPEFULLY they won't be able to "blindside" us. SUPREME COURT DECISIONS AND LEGISLATION ARE IRRELEVANT, "RIGHTS" ARE NOT GRANTED BY THE CONSTITUTION, ONLY RECOGNIZED.  The Declaration of independence states "that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights," The Bill of rights simply itemizes the rights in a more specific form, they are not open to interpretation, legislation, regulation, or any other form of infringement. See Miranda v Arizona, "When rights secured by the constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." Cockburn v State of Texas, "The right of the individual to bear arms in defense of the state or himself is absolute. He does not derive it from the Government. It is one of the "high powers" delegated directly to the citizen, and is excepted out of the general powers  of government. A law cannot be passed to infringe upon or impair it, Because it is above the law and independent of lawmaking power.
Those are just 2 examples, many more exist, victim disarmament is illegal as well as immoral. I don't care who gets elected, I ain't surrendering squat, and I intend to be in peoples faces about it. I don't care what kind of socialist dream world some bubble headed ass lives in they do NOT have the right to change my constitutional rights, THAT IS WHY THEY WERE SPECIFIED. If I offend people I can only say "GOOD", if I scare people I can only ask "What do YOU have in mind that my insistence on MY rights scares you.

Good points all, tombogon, and I agree.

There have been a number of posts and threads here about what happens is this "soft" war should turn hard and these thoughts have to be turned into actions. I honestly think that is the direction we're heading, and there is damn little we can do now to stop it, especially with the candidates we have offered to us. Not one is qualified to be President, not one is even thinkable as CINC.

I am going to steal your last line for my use. Just thought I'd let you know.
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: Rastus on March 03, 2008, 07:28:22 AM
Good points all, tombogon, and I agree.

There have been a number of posts and threads here about what happens is this "soft" war should turn hard and these thoughts have to be turned into actions. I honestly think that is the direction we're heading, and there is damn little we can do now to stop it, especially with the candidates we have offered to us. Not one is qualified to be President, not one is even thinkable as CINC.  ...........
Tom, you make great points.  I just think it's time to hunker down...the battle is lost without an aroused populace and, I think, that's going to take punishment....high taxes, property confiscation, job loss,...i.e., their ox being gored and losing their "good life.

Pathfinder, I never heard the terms you put it in...but I'm in with you.

There is a time for civil disobedience and that may not be when governments first start to assert themselves in stealing God-given rights.  Let the people who just woke up (i.e., the dumb asses who had it good and wouldn't get off the couch, wouldn't support the NRA or who voted for someone to get a $ or a ticket fixed) with the loud mouths get the boot on the neck and gun butt in the teeth.  If big brother knocks on your door that may not be the time to make a stand....especially if they have the numbers and you didn't know they were coming.  Not that right-out-of-the-box won't be the best time....just at your front door with your family inside(?)...you maybe want to hand in a few and have records showing where the rest went.   I don't know if those people I sold the guns to were giving me their right name or not, but I know they are good people and have the name and address they gave me....I do have that list just in case here in the next few years.  Bureaucrats need paper and I aim to please them.  I planning on paying my taxes, living smart not dying stupid.

Strange now, how people who never had an interest are buying AK's and AR's.  I'm an engineer, got a Masters degree in engineering from Tulane in New Orleans  and am simply knocked off my feet by the people who may have had an old shotgun or .22 and thought that was maybe overkill.....who now have AR's and a couple of thousand rounds not too mention gold and silver at home in the safe.  They thought I was nuts a year or two ago...just because I'm a collector who likes guns.  Lots of licensed professional engineers, doctors I know, etc. who now have AR's, AK's and a bunch of ammo who didn't have it a year or two ago.  I bought 'em because I like 'em and they are fun to shoot...these newcomers who were looking down on me don't share my shooting enthusiasm...why are they buying them?
Title: Re: Liberal fascism
Post by: DDMac on March 03, 2008, 08:00:56 AM
Up early. Too much coffee. Let me speak to this as well. Tom's last line is the window to the future and key to what changes are coming. Most here believe that money is the usual motive for major initiatives, by individual or government. I think that is the case here also. There is a publishes presentation by David M. Walker called America's Fiscal Future. A call for Citizen Involvement that convinces me of the direction of any political party that gains the power of the Presidency AND Congress. The U.S. is backed way out on a monetary plank and we are sawing it off behind us as fast as we can.

Simply put, we have spent non-existent capital in failed attempts to provide all the government services WANTED, not needed, by the clamoring masses. Politicians promise it and their election requires it. Problem is, we can't afford it. Health care, Social Security, Postal Service, railroads, cost of government operations, war, nation building, extraordinary corporate corruption requiring government bailouts, have broken the bank. There is a big, brick economic wall coming and we are in need of speed brakes right now. Mr. Walker explains that it is still fixable,but there needs to be changes in how the regular citizen views his role in society.

From what I've read of the forum members, you are pretty much self-made individualists, fiercely self reliant, honorable, resourceful and reliable citizens who have paid our dues to enjoy what you have earned. Clearly, people of that mindset have become a dwindling minority since WWII. You pull the wagon, load and unload it, and provide the bounty it carries. You have also borne the weight of those fellow citizens (and anyone inside the border) who are permitted to simply ride in the wagon. Everyone in a position to do something about it realizes this must stop. The suggested fix will not sit well with either the riders OR the pullers of the wagon. The Walker article points to the fantastic success of fiscal reforms in other countries as a beacon of hope to steer toward. He offers up the examples of Australia and New Zealand as guideposts.

The military is an armed force, sort of like the armed citizen militia, except that the military is no democracy. The Uniform Code of Military Justice insures that order will be maintained by those selected to lead. The U.S. citizen cannot be so compelled to comply with orders given by those selected to lead. We have the Constitution-and guns! As Mr. Walker's report foreshadows, the government, in an attempt to save the economy from collapse, will have to be in a position to issue orders, like a military general, to be followed without question, in order to reshape the economic landscape. People will need to assume a predetermined role in society to provide government with human resources where and in what numbers they determine necessary. Call it Public Service, sounds good. There can be no argument, and no explanation is necessary. Want to be an artist? Nope, don't need'em. You will be an auto mechanic. Doctor? Fine, you will practice internal medicine and your license will be issued in New Jersey. Period. You wouldn't understand the big picture anyway.

So, how does government position itself where it can issue orders, effecting the lives and individual futures of every citizen, in a Democratic Republic? First, they must eliminate the tools of effective dissent. Then, they may direct your actions and choices with relative impunity. Sure, you may attempt to sue on Constitutional grounds, but in the mean time, get back to your assigned duties. By the way, your withholding needs to go up some more. Australia?  New Zealand? Great examples indeed.

I'm not suggesting that spending can continue as in the past, but you have heard the campaign promises. Universal health care, lower taxes, world peace,more, more, more...  So, how's that going to work? It will be converted from the fruits of YOUR labor, for the benefit of ALL, disproportionately and involuntarily in some cases.

It is a solution, and it would work, but at what cost to people like those here this morning? That, Tom, is what I think they have in mind.

Mac.