The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: mydogtaz on December 28, 2010, 06:14:30 PM
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howdy all,i have a question,rather looking for opinions from gun owners,between a glock,a kimber,an hk usp,or a sig,which 45 acp would you have or use to defend yourself or your family in a life or death situation.which one would be your first choice??????????
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reality all the big name manufactors produce good guns right for the box.
it really comes down to which feels right and which as the features you like.
out of those you listed, I'd pick the sig, but I'm sure there will be others here that would pick the glock, the kimber or the hk.
I know that really does not help much.
if you can shoot as many as you can, see which one you like the best.
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As posted, all the brands you listed, make a good .45. So does S&W, EAA, Para, and STI.
I have a Glock21, it's fantastic pistol, you will be better suited to have large hands, and a fantastic carry rig, as it's a big pistol, (I actually call it a rail-road tie with a grip), but it goes bang every time, and is very accurate.
So are the others you listed. "Defend Your Family" covers parameters. At home? On the road?, In the nightstand? Or in a IWB holster.
Kimbers are top shelf, but why spend that much for a pistol, (it's ultimately your choice),...but,.....
Para's come in compact platforms, so do others....Full-size? Mid-size? Recoil management, all come into play.
I can defend my family with my M85 Ultra-Lite .38, as well as a Remington 870, or anything else in my safe, so just getting a .45 will be a personal thing for you.
Have you considered another caliber? Just curious... You asked a brief question that has many possibilities. Take your time, go to gun shows, ranges, retail shops, and browse, fondle, rent, and fire several.
Do you have a lot of .45 exp? 9mm is cheaper ammo, for range time, etc,.... give us some specific things you are looking for in your quest, and I'm sure, those here can help narrow down some choices that will fit what you want.
Let us know, keep us in the loop. It's a big investment, and an important one for you and your family. Good folks here will help anyway we can, and congratulate you on whatever your satisfied with.
Good shopping.
tw
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I like Glocks. That that said, I have heard very little bad about the others. As long as its not a mosquito ( ;D) there is little bad said about Sig. There is a reason most federal LEOs carry them and they are US made. H@K, again a great gun. Downside is that the general consensus is that their CS sucks, but I haven't experienced it. The only ding I've heard on Kimber is that they are a little too tuned to accuracy and so don't have the tolerance for crud that a cheaper 1911 might give you, due to tight tolerances. Again, I will defer to the 1911 guys here. As I said earlier I like Glock. A trained monkey can work it and field strip it. It would take a Ph.D. to break one. It will always go bang and has survived stupid torture tests. There is a reason a large number of PDs issue them. Some people don't like the grip angle or the size. Me, it fits perfectly and I like the trigger. It gves you slack takeup, then gets firm before firing. You know when it will go bang. To me, its a huge plus over a doube action revolver for example. But thats just me. Shoot all four and pick one. You won't go wrong.
FQ13
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sorry,i realize my question was at best a little vague.yes i have lots of 45 expereince,i am most comfortable shooting a 45 .as far as where the protection is needed,it could be home ,on the road,getting into the car in the store parking lot,walking ionto a 7-eleven,etc.,etc....i now and have been carrying a S&W cs45.great little gun for concealment,just wish it had more than 6 shots.crime and thugs are carrying bigger and better weapons,so a think sometimes i would like a little more in the mag than six.i agree on the kimber issue,a lot of money is needed,but i have shot a sig,and have been seeing positive things on an hk usp 45.your right i need to rent a few different selections (glock,HK,etc.) and see what i like.i do have big hands,so heft is not necessarily an issue,but concealment might be...... :)
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I got a deal on a brand new Rock Island Armory 1911 or I would not have bothered with a semi auto at all, let alone a .45.
That being said, If your only criteria to pick one from the list is reliability,
Go with the Glock, they are ugly, they have no personality, and rather than having "workmanship", they are simply squirted into a mold.
But they will go bang every effen time.
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If you are looking for something with a higher capacity might I suggest you look at the FNP-45? FNs are a quality, reliable, accurate, and often overlooked handgun. If you have big hands that might be a good match as they are a handful for regular sized hands. I have the FNP-9 and FNX-40 and can honestly say that they are great guns at a very attractive price. Not the easiest to CCW but with a good holster it's not too big of a problem.
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Damn, I forgot to mention the FN :-\....I have the FN9 and love the simplistic, keep it simple stupid design that grips well, shoots great, and is utterly reliable. The FN-45 just has a larger caliber, same design, 1/3-1/2 the cost of a Kimber, much less than the Sig and HK, and is right up there with the EAA Witness .45.
RIA, makes a no muss, no fuss pistol. Keeping to tradition that carries the original 1911 platform into this century.
Larger pistols, used to be hard to IWB, but Galco, DeSantis, Don Hume, and many others have found a way to make it a comfortable carry.
If concealment plays a significant role, grope and fondle some of the Para's, or other compacts. Hell, the Glock compacts always can be carried IWB, even the G30 is 10 rds. of .45.
Quite the option. for around $500, (give or take),..
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I have owned a Glock 21 for 20 yrs, it is a great pistol at a reasonable price, utterly reliable and accurate, save up a little more and put crimson trace laser and you got it, if you go for the older models, and a flashlight is not a big deal, you can get 1 for 400 bucks.
Not bashing the FN, it is reliable and accurate, but the accessories for the Glock are all over the place. The Kimbers and HK's are very expensive, and not worth the trade off, IMHO.
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I have owned a Glock 21 for 20 yrs, it is a great pistol at a reasonable price, utterly reliable and accurate, save up a little more and put crimson trace laser and you got it, if you go for the older models, and a flashlight is not a big deal, you can get 1 for 400 bucks.
Not bashing the FN, it is reliable and accurate, but the accessories for the Glock are all over the place. The Kimbers and HK's are very expensive, and not worth the trade off, IMHO.
i BOUGHT A GLOCK 21 SHORTLY AFTER THEY CAME OUT. HAD IT FOR 2 YEARS. DURING THIS TIME IT SPENT 6 MONTHS EITHER TRAVELING TO, FROM OR BEING AT GLOCK FOR REPAIRS. THE EXTRACTOR HOOK KEPT BREAKING, THE LOWER CORNER WOULD BREAK OFF. AFTER THE 4TH TIME I SOLD IT.
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Another thing I forgot to mention, since your title specifies "under duress".
The Glock's lack of an external safety means that when you are under stress you don't have to remember any little levers or buttons. Just Front sight, Press.
i BOUGHT A GLOCK 21 SHORTLY AFTER THEY CAME OUT. HAD IT FOR 2 YEARS. DURING THIS TIME IT SPENT 6 MONTHS EITHER TRAVELING TO, FROM OR BEING AT GLOCK FOR REPAIRS. THE EXTRACTOR HOOK KEPT BREAKING, THE LOWER CORNER WOULD BREAK OFF. AFTER THE 4TH TIME I SOLD IT.
Sounds like something you were doing.
No one else mentions problems with them but you break 4 in a row ?
Law of averages says either one of the other "Fan boy's" on here would have mentioned similar experience or you would have got one that held up.
I don't blame you for selling it, but I would not blame the gun with out a lot more info.
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I am a Glock armorer, which is a lot being a maytag repairman, they just don't need it as general rule, GP, I am going to take a wild ass guess, did the pistol ever malfunction? Did you find the defect on disassembly? Not that parts should have broken, but I have seen time and again, broken parts on Glocks, and they did not cause stoppages. Still a big Glock fan.
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Shot a lot of Sigs in my day, granted they aren't as numerous as the other folks around here, and I've had no problems. Only thing on them is cost, eight to nine hundred dollars new but one of the best fighting pistols around. Also look into Springfield, the XD45's I've shot have all been great performers with no issues. And remember, when gun people take reliability, it usually refers to 'in the field'. At home all these guns are going to be reliable once you've proven them at the range.
Big thing is price. How much do you have, or are willing to spend, on a handgun? That'll narrow your options for you real quick. Split, I'd say, into: Sig, FN, Kimber, HK between Springfield, Glock, Smith Wesson, Ruger. High end and utilitarian.
And there's what your familiar with and comfortable handling. Lots of stuff going on when using a Sig or a 1911, lots of room to make mistakes. On the other hand, those inexpensive polymer frames are fairly simple; point, pull trigger, take finger off trigger when done. If your not that comfortable a shooter that would be the route I'd recommend and have to good friends in the past.
My personal favorite to your actual question though is Sig. Good luck.
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i BOUGHT A GLOCK 21 SHORTLY AFTER THEY CAME OUT. HAD IT FOR 2 YEARS. DURING THIS TIME IT SPENT 6 MONTHS EITHER TRAVELING TO, FROM OR BEING AT GLOCK FOR REPAIRS. THE EXTRACTOR HOOK KEPT BREAKING, THE LOWER CORNER WOULD BREAK OFF. AFTER THE 4TH TIME I SOLD IT.
I also bought one of the first Glock 21s.
I have had no problems with it, but I did send it in to Glock for a free (I paid for shipping one way) upgrade to the slide. They recut the extractor cut out to a different angle (I was told).
Not sure of the details of the modification or why it was available, but it would seem that they would have applied the upgrade if it affected your pistol.
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Gota say Gaspasser, you are a more patient man than I to send it back 4 times. I love Glocks .and have been problem free for 18 years and God and Visa alone know how many rounds ;D. Still, if I have to send something back the third time for the same problem, I either want a new one or my money back. I am dissapointed Glock didn't just do that for you. It sure as hell would have made fnancial sense for them PR wise the second time it showed up if the "repair" was a new pistol, and between the hours, parts, CS paperwork and advertising it would take to get your business again, it probably would have been cheaper. :P.
FQ13
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Just put on a whole new slide and call it good. Like FQ says, it's cheaper in the long run.
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Another thing I forgot to mention, since your title specifies "under duress".
The Glock's lack of an external safety means that when you are under stress you don't have to remember any little levers or buttons. Just Front sight, Press.
Sounds like something you were doing.
No one else mentions problems with them but you break 4 in a row ?
Law of averages says either one of the other "Fan boy's" on here would have mentioned similar experience or you would have got one that held up.
I don't blame you for selling it, but I would not blame the gun with out a lot more info.
About the same time I was having trouble "Mas Ayoob" had written an article about a police dept. that had been having a lot of trouble with there G21's, he never said what it was and that helped in my decision.
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I'll second, or third, or whatever the Glock. The choice of model or caliber doesn't really matter because they all are utterly dependable pistols. While not totally unbreakable, they are about as close to it as you'll come. If I had to chose only one pistol and rifle to defend my life with, it would be a Glock and an AK-47. If I then died it would not be because of inferior weaponry. Bill T.
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I'll second, or third, or whatever the Glock. The choice of model or caliber doesn't really matter because they all are utterly dependable pistols. While not totally unbreakable, they are about as close to it as you'll come. If I had to chose only one pistol and rifle to defend my life with, it would be a Glock and an AK-47. If I then died it would not be because of inferior weaponry. Bill T.
That is what Gabe Suarez centers his training on.
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I am a Glock armorer, which is a lot being a maytag repairman, they just don't need it as general rule, GP, I am going to take a wild ass guess, did the pistol ever malfunction? Did you find the defect on disassembly? Not that parts should have broken, but I have seen time and again, broken parts on Glocks, and they did not cause stoppages. Still a big Glock fan.
What first made me notice was the case rims being chewed up. Checked it out and found the broken extractor. Sent it back to glock. Got it back. Shot some more then mare bad case rims. back to Glock. Same again, third time found a local armorer, traded some 45 ammo for repairs. Worked ok for awhile then samo samo. Back to glock, got it back went out and it broke on the first round. Got rid of it then. Had a g19 that worked great, have a San Antonio PD trade in g22 for $350. most accurate gun I have ever owned.
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I also bought one of the first Glock 21s.
I have had no problems with it, but I did send it in to Glock for a free (I paid for shipping one way) upgrade to the slide. They recut the extractor cut out to a different angle (I was told).
Not sure of the details of the modification or why it was available, but it would seem that they would have applied the upgrade if it affected your pistol.
I bought mine in 1991 and sold it in 1994, if you got yours mush after 1994 iI might venture to say that I may have had something to do with your recall.
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howdy all,i have a question,rather looking for opinions from gun owners,between a glock,a kimber,an hk usp,or a sig,which 45 acp would you have or use to defend yourself or your family in a life or death situation.which one would be your first choice??????????
Since the Glock I have (G30) is usually on my hip, and my Kimbers are usually at home, the Glock would be the one I'd grab first. Unless by chance I had one of the Kimbers that day, then I'd grab it. I don't own an H&K, so it wouldn't be one I'd grab. Can't grab what you don't have. ;) Same with Sig. If I had a Sig or H&K, I wouldn't have any problem going to those, if the ones I had hadn't had a lot of failures when I'd shot them. I'd grab pretty much whichever one was the first I could reach when SHTF. Also if the Sig was a .40 or 9MM, I'd grab the Kimber or Glock first cause they're .45's. I don't buy into the philosophy that a bigger bullet isn't any advantage.
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I will also add that my Rock Island Government model is on the list of guns I wouldn't hesitate to grab. Boringly reliable and beautifully accurate. You don't have to spend $700 or $1000 to get a reliable accurate pistol.
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I had a thought on this thread. I have a renewed interest in revolvers and my buddy was extolling to me how reliable they were. I pointed out to him their vulnerability is in the first shot. The cylinder must revolve and the hammer must cock and fall. Where as with a striker fired gun only the trigger must be free and clear.
This I think is a concern when carrying a gun on your person. The possibility of an external hammer fouling in clothing is a reason the revolver manufacturers made "hammerless" or shrouded hammer models.
To that end, for close-in personal carry, where clothing might get in the way, I suggest the striker fired guns over any with an exposed hammer.
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Before the Glock, and several of the other high reliability, Polymer framed semi auto pistols came out, it was said a semi was more apt to jam than a revolver was to break. I don't think that argument is valid anymore. Semi auto designs have gotten far more reliable over time, while revolver design has pretty much remained the same.
If anything the revolvers have become less reliable with the advent of all of these silly, stupid internal locks. Smith & Wesson had several models lock up, rendering the gun useless, when they first introduced their internal lock mechanism. This forced many owners to return the weapon to the factory for repair. My local gun shop had to send the first 3, X-Frame .500's he sold back because every one of them locked up, one on the first cylinder full of ammo fired through it. He stopped selling them for over 6 months until S&W got the whole mess straightened out.
During all of this the semi auto weapons just kept getting better and more reliable. Kimber along with Springfield Armory, as well as others like Les Baer have improved reliability of the 1911 to almost perfection. The Glock along with the Springfield XD have advanced the Polymer pistols to a previously unheard of level of reliability. 30 years ago it was difficult to find a factory semi auto that would feed hollow cavity bullets with any reliability without having a gunsmith do a "throat job" on the barrel. Now it's all but impossible to find a brand name semi that won't. Revolvers are still a formidable self defense weapon. But as long as semi autos keep improving the way they have been, they'll always be playing the role of catch up. Their ammo capacity limitation, along with the slowness of reloading, is yet another thing that hampers their popularity. Few of us can mimic Jerry Miculek. Bill T.
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I would tend to agree with Bill. Improved materials, machining techniques, and Quality control processes leave not much to choose between a semi and a revolver beyond reload speed, which depends on how much you want to practice, and caliber. Some good pistol caliber's being just too long for a magazine that feeds through the grip.
One question I would ask Bill though about those X frames. How many were due to failure of the gun, and how many because the crimp allowed the bullet to work out of the case under recoil ?
I realize that when you need the cause of no bang is not important, but we should not blame a certain action type for an Ammo maker's mistake.
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The 3 that my local dealer sold that he had to send back were all do to the internal lock breaking, tying up the gun. From what I understand it was fairly common when S&W first introduced the .500 Magnum. There were other models that had issues as well, but the .500 was the worst.
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MB had that happen with his .44 Mag.
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My go to handgun is a Glock. I have many others, but choose Glock for my protection. However, my wife prefers her new Smith M&P. ;D
My Springfield 1911's are some of my favorites though. My experience has taught me to stick with the big name companies. Go to a gun store and hold a variety of guns to see which feels the most comfortable. Good luck.