The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: billt on January 24, 2011, 11:29:17 AM
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http://militarygunsupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=58&products_id=1082
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ATF had classed this as a "machine gun" and tried to charge the designer. I had not heard that they had been forced to reverse that.
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Is it just me or is anyone else wondering whether that $319 includes a coupon for a lawyer? ;D
FQ13
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They are advertising 38 units currently in stock. Bill T.
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They are advertising 38 units currently in stock. Bill T.
What are you waiting for? We'll be watching eagerly for a report (and we promise to help raise bail money). ;D
FQ13
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we promise to help raise bail money. FQ13
Why do you think they are illegal? Bill T.
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Tom Gresham interviewed the designer some time ago (A year, maybe 2 ).
At that time he was battling the ATF who he had submitted an example to for approval, they broke it, then turned around and tried to charge him with manufacturing a "Machine gun". I have not heard anything about it since.
Bill, pay no attention to FQ, considering all the "Fire Storm" "Hellfire" and other trigger "actuators" on the market he is simply demonstrating his liberal lack of knowledge.
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In a nutshell, FQ, to answer your question on legality: It is legal under 'current' standards because the actuator is controlled by the shooter and is not a component of the internal working mechanism of the trigger group. The internal trigger control is not affected like it would be with a sear disconnect altering mechanism.
This unit seems to control the rate of fire based on external manipulation of the trigger. It appears to use the recoil inertia of the rifle to press the trigger faster than the shooter would normally be able to do with just a finger. In the video note the stock sliding back and forth with recoil as the trigger finger rests against the sliding unit. (this is all just supposition based on what I saw in the video).
(http://militarygunsupply.com/images/slidefire2.jpg)
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If its legal, great. I'd just rather someone else do the beta testing on that issue. Honestly though, if I could get a FA AR I couldn't afford to feed it. :-\
FQ13
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If its legal, great. I'd just rather someone else do the beta testing on that issue. Honestly though, if I could get a FA AR I couldn't afford to feed it. :-\
FQ13
I'd be more concerned about the second part of your post ;D
As I remember the interview, after the ATF decision they made him responsible for recovering the ones he had already sold, so the burden would not be on the person who bought one in good faith.
I would also wonder about lost accuracy.
And pinched fingers ;D
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If its legal, great. I'd just rather someone else do the beta testing on that issue. Honestly though, if I could get a FA AR I couldn't afford to feed it. :-\
FQ13
Same here on the food bill for the thing. :(
It's like Tom mentioned on the actuators........ those trigger cranking units that are out there for Mini-14's and 10/22's................ They attach externally and simply work the trigger faster than your finger can.
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Its a variation of the ole "bump" firing .
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Its a variation of the ole "bump" firing .
This looks to be a lot more controllable and less dangerous. Bill T.
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In a nutshell, FQ, to answer your question on legality: It is legal under 'current' standards because the actuator is controlled by the shooter and is not a component of the internal working mechanism of the trigger group. The internal trigger control is not affected like it would be with a sear disconnect altering mechanism.
This unit seems to control the rate of fire based on external manipulation of the trigger. It appears to use the recoil inertia of the rifle to press the trigger faster than the shooter would normally be able to do with just a finger. In the video note the stock sliding back and forth with recoil as the trigger finger rests against the sliding unit. (this is all just supposition based on what I saw in the video).
(http://militarygunsupply.com/images/slidefire2.jpg)
Even though it doesn't effect the internal firing mechanism it can still be considered illegal. There have been people that have gotten nailed by ATF for "shoe string machine guns." Basically they took their shoe stirngs and tied them just right to the triger, so that the string would strech just far enough forward for the sear to reset before it would snap back and trip the sear again.
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Even though it doesn't effect the internal firing mechanism it can still be considered illegal. There have been people that have gotten nailed by ATF for "shoe string machine guns." Basically they took their shoe stirngs and tied them just right to the triger, so that the string would strech just far enough forward for the sear to reset before it would snap back and trip the sear again.
You are absolutely correct. There probably have been plenty of backyard gunsmiths that have made illegal firing mechanisms from shoestrings to slide-firing levers. This system may eventually end up on the banned list also, but according to the website, they have ATF approval letters that go with each rifle.....for now.
This is one of those times where the saying, "Buyer Beware" comes into play big time....and as always, YMMV.
FWIW.
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Someone made a spring loaded stock for the 10/22 that worked the same way. ATF approved it then outlawed it. I expect the same thing here.
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Someone made a spring loaded stock for the 10/22 that worked the same way. ATF approved it then outlawed it. I expect the same thing here.
Most likely right after some nut-case goes ape-sh!t and shoots up a crowd with one....or some bozo kills someone at a range.
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If your luck is like mine.
you will order it, and during shiping it will become illegal.
lol
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They also market that windup thingy on the trigger, turn it and the trigger goes back and forth. But this is really the best Ive seen. If its legal, I may buy another poodle shooter, just for in case I need it.
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They also market that windup thingy on the trigger, turn it and the trigger goes back and forth. But this is really the best Ive seen. If its legal, I may buy another poodle shooter, just for in case I need it.
A friend of mine had one of those trigger crank devices on a Mini-14. It actually worked pretty good as for rate of fire...it could fire much faster than a regular finger could pull the trigger.....but it was way too awkward to be beneficial...IMHO.
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A friend of mine had one of those trigger crank devices on a Mini-14. It actually worked pretty good as for rate of fire...it could fire much faster than a regular finger could pull the trigger.....but it was way too awkward to be beneficial...IMHO.
Federal and Winchester thought it was very beneficial. ;D
FQ13
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The current ATF stink about imported shotguns is a classic example of what I was referring to in my first post.
Just because the law says it's legal doesn't mean anything when some "appointee" gets a socialist hair across his azz.
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Just not worth the risk. I mean its cool and all but I cant see myself playing games with the ATF.
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Seems to me that if you can get a real good muzzle attachment like a battle comp and practice alot, full auto is kind of overrated anyway.
I can understand it for military units laying down supressive fire, but aside from the cool factor just look at what Travis Haley from magpul can do with a semi auto rifle.... :o
With that being said, I wish I had a bunch of select fire rifles and a garage full of ammo :'(
I think that a work around like this is just a waste of time that you could put to better use learning to maximize your ability with the semi auto.
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Just not worth the risk. I mean its cool and all but I cant see myself playing games with the ATF.
Seems to me that if you can get a real good muzzle attachment like a battle comp and practice alot, full auto is kind of overrated anyway.
I can understand it for military units laying down supressive fire, but aside from the cool factor just look at what Travis Haley from magpul can do with a semi auto rifle.... :o
With that being said, I wish I had a bunch of select fire rifles and a garage full of ammo :'(
I think that a work around like this is just a waste of time that you could put to better use learning to maximize your ability with the semi auto.
The thread doesn't have anything to do with converting the gun.
The BC doesn't make the gun full auto. You can't do that with out changing other parts. The preference is based on the fact that the F/A Bolt Carrier has more material, therefore more weight, for more reliable function.
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The thread doesn't have anything to do with converting the gun.
The BC doesn't make the gun full auto. You can't do that with out changing other parts. The preference is based on the fact that the F/A Bolt Carrier has more material, therefore more weight, for more reliable function.
I thought the thread was reguarding an expensive stock that makes it easier to "bump fire" an AR, and so achive a kind of bastardized automatic rate of fire .
I understand the F/A bolt carrier in a semi auto: this makes good sense.
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Wrong thread Tom. :)
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Well color me embarrassed ;D
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Extreme thread drift in action perhaps?
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Extreme thread drift bounce in action perhaps?
FIFY ;D ;D ;D
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Extreme thread mental drift in action perhaps?
;D
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Seems to me that if you can get a real good muzzle attachment like a battle comp and practice alot, full auto is kind of overrated anyway.
I can understand it for military units laying down supressive fire, but aside from the cool factor just look at what Travis Haley from magpul can do with a semi auto rifle.... :o
With that being said, I wish I had a bunch of select fire rifles and a garage full of ammo :'(
I think that a work around like this is just a waste of time that you could put to better use learning to maximize your ability with the semi auto.
I think that is the comment of the day. Unless you are putting down suppresive fire or kicking down a door and hosing a room, FA doesn't seem like a great advantage. Semi auto will do for most civilian apps. Its a hell of a lot cheaper and doesn't put you on BATFs radar. I would like to have an M4 rather than an Mforgery, but honestly, the only difference I'll likely ever notice is on my ammo bill. The difference between "bang, bang,bang" and "Brrap" seems neglible in a real gun fight. After all, the "happy switch" that lets you fire a three round burst first and foremost turns a thirty round mag into a ten round mag, and I am not convinced the trade off is worth it. FWIW.
FQ13