The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: oldkat69 on April 18, 2011, 10:23:23 PM
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??? :-[ http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/18/arizona-gov-brewer-vetoes-law-allowing-guns-public-college-campuses/
She says the bill was sloppily written. Frankly, it looks like it was TOO narrow and restrictive. The U.S. Constitution guarantees RIGHTS not privileges.
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show me where it says CCW is a right?
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show me where it says CCW is a right?
:o REALLY??? WTF??? :o
What part of ".......Shall Not Be Infringed......" do you not understand?!?
Brian
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:o REALLY??? WTF??? :o
What part of ".......Shall Not Be Infringed......" do you not understand?!?
Brian
yes really, the 2nd amendment is actually pretty vauge, and open to interpretation. Guess who gets to do that?
you forget that up until heller,there was no case law that said we had a right to own a gun in the home.
it said nothing about out side the home.
please prove me wrong. Show us case law that says we have the right to CCW
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It's TAB, He's in Ca. Do I need to elaborate on that train of thought ?
TAB, simple words for simple minds, The right to keep and BEAR arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.
Keep, means to have and possess, irrelevant here, BEAR, means to carry on or about your person, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED means I can BEAR them any f*cking way I please.
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now where did we leave the pop corn and beers
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tom,
We all agree on the keep part( well other then those in DC and chicago), but what does "bear" mean??
Its not a black and white issue... lets use free speach as a example, we all know its not really free, child porn, slander, inciting violence, fire in a theather... etc. These are all perfect examples of how free speach is not really free.
So which is it, do we take every thing litterly or do we have to take things in context/inturpte...
much like that other book that many people beleave in, how much do you take litteral and how much is parable?
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................. free speech as a example, we all know its not really free, child porn, slander, inciting violence, fire in a theather... etc. These are all perfect examples of how free speech is not really free.
(spell correction applied)
Erhrhhrhrhrhrh: Non Sequitur. These examples are not of restricting free speech. These are examples of when speech is used to harm others in a malicious, deliberate manner. An example of restricting free speech would be to make a law against ANY talking while on theatre property.
It is already against the law to use firearms to murder, assault or rob.
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ...
The TAB we all know and love is back in full force! He's here, he's over on the new Ruger 1911, and soon he'll be on the NRA thread.
I'll probably pipe in on here later, but I've had too much coffee this morning to start ranting >:(
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show me where it says CCW is a right?
The 9th Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
So by default, it is a Right.
YOU have to show us where it says it is not a Right.
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It's TAB, He's in Ca. Do I need to elaborate on that train of thought ?
TAB, simple words for simple minds, The right to keep and BEAR arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.
Keep, means to have and possess, irrelevant here, BEAR, means to carry on or about your person, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED means I can BEAR them any f*cking way I please.
The 9th Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
So by default, it is a Right.
YOU have to show us where it says it is not a Right.
Here endeth the lesson.
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Here endeth the lesson.
It should, but something tells me it won't. ::)
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While I am saddened that this was vetoed, I agree with not wanting laws that are focused to narrowly or can not stand the test of Court.
Look what happened with the Bill she signed that simply said that no lower jurisdiction could pass a law preventing law enforcement officers from doing their jobs, and that if as a secondary offense officers found reason to believe a law was being broken that the officers must enforce the federal law. Pretty basic and simple, but look what happened to it.
A thinking person will pick up on the need to stop "knee jerk" legislation, and work with the big picture to restore our Rights.
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You guys are mistaking what you want, for reality.
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You guys are mistaking what you want, for reality.
You, on the other hand, are accepting what is reality now and sacrificing what it should become.
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You, on the other hand, are accepting what is reality now and sacrificing what it should become.
unless there is a major shift in the SCOUS, there is no way thats going to change.
Fighting a cuase that has zero chance of winning in court, is foolish and a waste of time/money/effort. You could be using those resources in other places to actually do some good.
remember heller was 5-4, it was also extremly narrow. We were very, very close to having it go the other way.
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unless there is a major shift in the SCOUS, there is no way thats going to change.
Fighting a cuase that has zero chance of winning in court, is foolish and a waste of time/money/effort. You could be using those resources in other places to actually do some good.
remember heller was 5-4, it was also extremly narrow. We were very, very close to having it go the other way.
I know. I heard many folks saying we shouldn't be trying to do it and take the chance we would lose since the odds were stacked against us.
I'm glad someone had the courage and fortitude to carry the fight for us.
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I know. I heard many folks saying we shouldn't be trying to do it and take the chance we would lose since the odds were stacked against us.
I'm glad someone had the courage and fortitude to carry the fight for us.
would you feel the same if they had lost?
luckly it came out in or favor, but it could have went the other way.
What most people don't understand, the lawyers that tried heller, had a plan of action that had been though about for a long peroid of time, they then went looking for a case. Not the other way around, where the case came up and then they planed thier argument.
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unless there is a major shift in the SCOUS, there is no way thats going to change.
Fighting a cuase that has zero chance of winning in court, is foolish and a waste of time/money/effort. You could be using those resources in other places to actually do some good.
remember heller was 5-4, it was also extremly narrow. We were very, very close to having it go the other way.
How many times have the real change makers in this world been told that?
I'm damn glad you weren't around in 1776 or we would all be chipping in for a royal wedding gift >:(
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in 1776 we actually had a chance. CCW a right, not a chance in hell to win in court.
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in 1776 we actually had a chance. CCW a right, not a chance in hell to win in court.
I don't give a damn about CCW!!! Who made you believe that "concealed carry" is the way to go?
Repeat after me everyone -
What part of shall not be infringed do you not understand?
As Ted Nugent says - The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution IS my carry permit!
The more I see our Rights whittled away by both sides, handed over by people that claim they care, and personal choices turned into rights by the Courts, the more I dig my heels in.
By the way, who thought we had a snowball's chance in hell in D.C. and Chicago?
I am struggling for the actual quote and the movie right now, but the basic thought is
As long as there is a fool to believe there is a chance.
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Oh you mean ted that got him sworn in as a LEO so he could carry in 50 states ted?
Trying to get carry thru the court system is a losing deal. you want carry, work on good PR( not like the idiots did in SD) and your reps.
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Oh you mean ted that got him sworn in as a LEO so he could carry in 50 states ted?
Just like many other Americans have done, and like I am working on right now ... So BITE ME!
Trying to get carry thru the court system is a losing deal. you want carry, work on good PR( not like the idiots did in SD) and your reps.
I understand the United Kingdom is accepting new citizens at this time. Why don't you head on over there with the rest of the whipped pups that neutered themselves and gave it all away.
The only lost cause is the one with no one willing to fight for it!
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so how would you go about arguing this in court?
saying" shall not be infringed" in court will get you basicly luaghed out of court.
I'm not a fan of open carry, it has nothing to do with rather it should be legal or not. it has every thing to do with the mind set of many those that do OC and those around them.
if you go to every single gun forum on the web, you will find atleast one person that was ocing just to cuase a conflict. What happen in SD is a perfect example of what NOT TO DO. Did it get attention? yep, was it posative? not in the least.
I am a big fan of laws like TEXAS 30.06 law.
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So, any fight that you may not win is not worth fighting?
If you were walking down the street and 6 guys decided they were going to kill you and rape your wife, you wouldn't fight back because you probably wouldn't win?
Sometimes you have to fight for your principles no matter what the odds.
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no, I'm saying a legal fight where your chances of winning are zero, is a waste of time/money/effort.
If you are fighting for a cuase, your time/money/effort would be better used for other methods of fighting for said cuase.
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no, I'm saying a legal fight where your chances of winning are zero, is a waste of time/money/effort.
If you are fighting for a cuase, your time/money/effort would be better used for other methods of fighting for said cuase.
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Even with my tificate that says I gadgiated from a high school in the people's republic I don't speak that brand of TAB ???
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??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Even with my tificate that says I gadgiated from a high school in the people's republic I don't speak that brand of TAB ???
Too much education is a dangerous thing......TAB is a true example of that, he's said he has a Masters Degree.....from where is any ones guess...
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Its in math...
m58 let me put it too you like this...
lets just say your kid brings home his report card, and has a F in math. you go to talk to the teacher and ask why. The teacher says your kid never turns in home work, failed every single test and does nothing but talk none stop in class. they go on to explain thier grading system how its a basic % system and the average student got 85%+.
would you argue with the teacher saying the grading is unfair, or would you deal with your kid?
which would be a better use of your time?
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So, you fight the fight! I doesn't matter what angle you are coming from as long as you are doing it.
The problem with your example is you blame us (the kid). The problem IS in the Courts (the teacher). The primary problem is that the Courts have taken our Rights from us ignoring the Bill of Rights. The secondary problem is that we did not start fighting until after the first major hit back in 1968, and by the time we were ramped up more had been done. Then we topped it off by letting whipped pups like you guide the debate from our side.
In a nutshell using your example, this is a case where the teacher is in the wrong, but the kid also needs to work harder. However, the kid needs to work harder at what the teacher does not want.
Step one is that we need to quit doing as the teacher says, and get the superintendent to correct the lesson plan and grading curve to match the rules of the school.
Read the Second Amendment and the writings of the authors, and then come back and tell us where it says that only arms with hunting and sporting purposes, and without scary options are protected and allowed. Better yet, in 500 words give us a paper supporting the California listing of "allowed" handguns. Defend your State's stance on large caliber firearms. Tell us why we should continue to fight for the Rights of people like you rather than calling for an out right boycott of all things firearms on the State of California.
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I never said anything about what arms, should or should not be used for.
The point I was making, is fighting battles you can't win, does you no good.
I would also say that a teacher, that has a average grade of thier students of 85% is doing pretty good. Assuming they are actually teaching what they should. In the case of math, a teacher teaching the skills that are needed for real life probs and the "tools" needed to be successful in the next level of math.
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would you feel the same if they had lost?
luckly it came out in or favor, but it could have went the other way.
What most people don't understand, the lawyers that tried heller, had a plan of action that had been though about for a long peroid of time, they then went looking for a case. Not the other way around, where the case came up and then they planed thier argument.
That is true. But it had a chance and we won.
It will NEVER go our way if we don't try every chance we get.....and the harder we try, the more we stand together, the better our chance is.
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Its in math...
m58 let me put it too you like this...
lets just say your kid brings home his report card, and has a F in math. you go to talk to the teacher and ask why. The teacher says your kid never turns in home work, failed every single test and does nothing but talk none stop in class. they go on to explain thier grading system how its a basic % system and the average student got 85%+.
would you argue with the teacher saying the grading is unfair, or would you deal with your kid?
which would be a better use of your time?
In this case, I'd work with the kid.
Same as if a felon wanted to have his 2A rights reinstated. I'd work with him to have he felony conviction overturned or expunged if possible. If not he is out of luck. Same with the kid...if he just doesn't have what it takes to do math, he will need to find and alternative.
If, however, the teacher said that they felt the kid was too short and believed that short people never did good in math, I'd fight the teacher, not give in to the reality of the situation.
Same if the law infringed on the 2A rights of honest citizens, I'd fight or help fight that every chance I got.
And, yes, a well planned fight is most always better than a snap reaction. Punching the cop who think you should be arrested for open carry is not a good choice but fighting the goon squad that is going door to door confiscating the weapons of honest citizens might be the last and only chance you have to stop the wrong.
You might lose and die in the effort, but as Patrick Henry said "I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
Fighting every little battle might avoid the confrontation with that good squad.
I remember my first visit to Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot. I was a strong firearms enthusiast but was still taken aback when I say probably 80% of the folks there walking around with a pistol on their hip. After my initial reaction, I realized that this is how it should be...as many good folks as possible prepared and ready to protect themselves and other.
I remember when I was 16 and would carry a shotgun down the neighborhood street on the way to and from our rabbit hunting farmland (not mine personally, just were my buddies and I knew the farmer would give permission). No one reacted critically and we were regularly wished good luck on the way out and asked how we did on the way back. Older folks in the neighborhood would ask if we were going "rabbiting".
There was just a common acceptance of the presence of armed honest people. Getting back to that attitude will not be accomplished by cowering and worrying about offending the sensibilities of the hoplophobes.
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I never said anything about what arms, should or should not be used for.
The point I was making, is fighting battles you can't win, does you no good.
I would also say that a teacher, that has a average grade of thier students of 85% is doing pretty good. Assuming they are actually teaching what they should. In the case of math, a teacher teaching the skills that are needed for real life probs and the "tools" needed to be successful in the next level of math.
I recall the point of the movie 300. Fighting a battle you were sure to lose was exactly what was needed to get the reluctant to unite and carry the fight and win overwhelmingly.
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I recall the point of the movie 300. Fighting a battle you were sure to lose was exactly what was needed to get the reluctant to unite and carry the fight and win overwhelmingly.
Wasn't it only like 3% of the population that openly supported and fought in the revolutionary war? And everyone dismissed them as a few upstarts going up against the largest and finest military machine in the world at that time. By all rights we should have gotten our azzes handed to us, instead we charged into a battle with insurmountable odds and won our, and your freedom. Is that not worth fighting to preserve? No matter how tough the battle, or how small the victory?
Cowards only fight the fights they can win. Real men (rare in kalifornia) fight the fights, that need fighting. I have no use or patience for someone with an I can't attitude.
I forget the movie or the exact quote, but it was something like: "The person who says it can't be done is always overshadowed by the person who just did it."
Sorry Tab, but when you think the way you do about this issue, you deserve California gun laws.
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I quit debating/arguing last night, because I got sucked down a path of reasoning that was wrong. It is din din time, and I'm ready for something other than work for a few minutes.
Bottom line is this is not a student vs. teacher issue. This is the citizens of the United States of America and the protection of their Rights. These are not constitutional rights, these are Rights that are Protected by the Constitution of the United States of America!
The Second Amendment to the Constitution is written very clear, and the language of the supporting letters and debates is very clear. We are not fighting for new Rights or recognition of new things. We are fighting to undo decades of wrongful stripping of our Rights.
The only lost cause or lost fight is the one that we chose not to fight!