The Down Range Forum
Flying Dragon Productions ( Michael Bane ) => The Best Defense on My Outdoor TV => Topic started by: Rastus on June 27, 2011, 06:31:58 AM
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Flash mobs are igniting across the nation right now....if you didn't notice you aren't aware. People are being seriously injured at a minimum. For instance, entire neighborhoods are being challenged to become single race neighborhoods by thugs and ethnic cleansing...is how far behind. Do you know where the mobs are happening, in what type of neighborhood and by what demographic profiles?
For the sake of discussion, let us say 1) the mob cannot be avoided and 2) you cannot outrun them. How do you defend yourself for 3) a particular scenario of your choosing? Also let us 4) not quibble over the motivations (motivations, not reasons...there is a difference...don't think social injustice focus on the setting) for a mob...they exist therefore they are. Mobs have existed for a long, long time. Next, please avoid 5) solutions on how to appease people to prevent mobs...mobs want it all.
Let the discussion begin.
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If I am in fear for my life and it looks like I am going to be a deadman I am going to Ask who the leader is. When that idiot identifies themselves I will shoot that man in the face in front of the others and ask who wants to take his place. If they mow me down at that point oh well. One will be my dinner partner for tonight. Most mobs are brave until one of them gets it in front of the others. ( They are cowards hiding in the pack ). Few will stand their ground without the pack.
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Smart mobs won't have weapons. Not even clubs, much less knives or guns. They'll depend on numbers to overwhelm any defense. If someone defends themselves then the mob members will claim they were the victims.
My first thought having watched some of the videos is that you have a choice of armed self defense, which will probably work against you in court, or hand to hand self defense. The later of which probably won't work unless you're well trained, extremely vicious and lucky.
One of the famous gun writers said he carried a wad of ones to throw down for perps that just wanted the cash and to run. He said that, unless really threatened, that was preferable to taking a life. I also think that's a great diversionary move, whether to your next move is fight or flight.
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I consider the "mob" a deadly weapon in itself. A mob of punks wish to do nothing more than cause damage, harm, and mayhem, and force must be stopped with force. At the first glance of a gun I think they would ALL get scared and run, and those that don't are stupid and deserve to be shot, or at the very least, lose a knee-cap!
Sure, a couple will have the g'nads to stand there and DARE you to shoot them, and in that case, let 'em have it! I'd rather be judged by twelve, than carried by six!
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Assuming no place to run...like a dead end alley...and a large mob running in to get me with my back to the wall.
I start shooting and take out any in the lead I can and start shouting "RUN!! It's an ambush!"
And keep shooting.
Reload and see if this has opened any paths of escape.
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It really depends on if I'm alone or not and, if not, who that other person/people is/are would make a big difference. For this discussion I'll assume I'm alone. Also, "flash" mobs typically aren't as big as other types of mobs and may be easier to get away from than, say, a mob that results from a sports event. Hopefully you are at the edge and not deep into it.
Mobs aren't in it for the money so throwing cash at them will be of little value and may actually just chum the waters. If flight is not a viable solution I'd find a corner or wall to protect my back. At that point I would be fearing for my life and personal safety. It would be a matter of survival and the rest will have to be sorted out later, if there is a later. I might brandish and try to warn them back, but probably not. I would then shoot two of the closest and most menacing. Preferably head shots to splatter their pals a little and possibly give them notice that this is the real deal. A short pause to reassess the situation - escape might still be possible. Worst case I keep firing until slide lock or I lose the gun. Then, if possible, I'd go to the knife. Face it, at that point your odds of survival are minuscule and hopefully your actions would be able to spur some sort of crack down and possibly save others the same fate. I don't intend to be the next Reginald Denny. Bottom line - you're pretty much screwed no matter what.
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Use the "5th Element" defense, Shoot the leaders and hope the rest run like the cowards they are. As said earlier the mob is a deadly weapon, they have arms and legs that they can beat or stomp you to death with. Hopefully by taking out a few the rest will flee, leaving you to tell the Police what happened.Just make sure to be the first to call 911.
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Pull a gun, start shooting, don't stop until you're out of ammo, the mob has dispersed, or you're dead. You only have to worry about consequences if you're alive. Be sure to find out if any of the dead were minors. If so, file suit against their families for lack of supervision.
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The mob would get a "flash" alright.....maybe even several "flashes"............. if the first seed didn't take root.
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Smok'em if you got'em. ;D
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The possibility of facing this scenario grows every day. Another good reason to avoid urban centers.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110629_Teens_in_a_mob_assault_and_rob_Center_City_patrons.html (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110629_Teens_in_a_mob_assault_and_rob_Center_City_patrons.html)
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The possibility of facing this scenario grows every day. Another good reason to avoid urban centers.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110629_Teens_in_a_mob_assault_and_rob_Center_City_patrons.html (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110629_Teens_in_a_mob_assault_and_rob_Center_City_patrons.html)
They have a poll with that. 4% are not concerned, 11% are somewhat concerned and 85% are very concerned. I guess not everyone is ostrich. I wonder how many would defend themselvess...we're batting a 1000 here.
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This is a very serious topic to me. I have been trying to brainstorm an action plan since I work for a company that could be hit by a flash mob.
1. I have taken the time to speak with employees and tell them not to intervene due to the situation becoming volatile and turning violent.
2. Once recognized, dial 911. As a liaison to law enforcement I have been trying to make contact with the local PD to come up with a game plan.
3. Utilize CCTV and try to document all involved and possibly identify a leader.
4. Remain calm.
5. Have employees to help with honest customers exit and get out of the way of harm. Use fire exits if need be.
6. Break out an M-60 and mow them down. ;D Oops, we best skip number 6. ;)
7. Material items can be replaced, lives cannot so do what you can to stay safe.
Plans need to be made to cordon off and secure the area. A checkpoint and one exit should be in place in the cordon. This is what I have come up with so far.
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I'm a little surprised...2 pages of responses on flash mobs and not one reference to Jennifer Beals. What a feeling.
(http://media.paperblog.fr/i/168/1686063/cry-baby-flashdance-double-L-1.jpeg)
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Dial 911....then dial 1911. ;D
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This is a very serious topic to me. I have been trying to brainstorm an action plan since I work for a company that could be hit by a flash mob.
1. I have taken the time to speak with employees and tell them not to intervene due to the situation becoming volatile and turning violent.
2. Once recognized, dial 911. As a liaison to law enforcement I have been trying to make contact with the local PD to come up with a game plan.
3. Utilize CCTV and try to document all involved and possibly identify a leader.
4. Remain calm.
5. Have employees to help with honest customers exit and get out of the way of harm. Use fire exits if need be.
6. Break out an M-60 and mow them down. ;D Oops, we best skip number 6. ;)
7. Material items can be replaced, lives cannot so do what you can to stay safe.
Plans need to be made to cordon off and secure the area. A checkpoint and one exit should be in place in the cordon. This is what I have come up with so far.
The whole point of a flash mob is you have maybe 30 seconds to realize what's going on, probably less. If you're expecting something to happen, then (a) you might have as much as a minute, and (b) what the heck are you still doing there if you expect something to happen?
I'm a little surprised...2 pages of responses on flash mobs and not one reference to Jennifer Beals. What a feeling.
(http://media.paperblog.fr/i/168/1686063/cry-baby-flashdance-double-L-1.jpeg)
We're discussing flash mobs, not skank mobs. ;)
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Here's at least one way to defend yourself from a mob.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=33d_1309535150
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Great video Hazcat. Now if we could get more citizens to stand up to these bungholes then all this crap might come to an abrupt halt.
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Escape if you can, if not take out the closest threats and leaders. I haven't survived 9 yrs down range to come home to this.
CD
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Escape if you can, if not take out the closest threats and leaders. I haven't survived 9 yrs down range to come home to this.
CD
First, thank you and God Bless you for your service.
That was my thought too, if I can't get away and I'm going down then why go alone? If I live they can prosecute me.
Lots of riots and fights hitting the news lately...group of 300 getting it on in Mobile, Alabama, over the weekend.
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Cull the herd before you go down so the next guy has less targets.
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The biggest issue is finding the leader. You can pick off the trailers in the herd and not affect the leaders of the pack. But, if you take out the leader the rest of the pack ceases to function. The question is whether the ones at the forefront are the leaders, or are they just the pawns sacrificed by the leader who is sitting back in the pack?
Carry plenty of ammunition, and don't ever waste it!
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The one running his mouth the most. He will be jumping and pumping up the rest into a frenzy.
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I like what Michael mentioned in the podcast for a self defense situation...focus on the guy most close to you who can interfere with your defense and to keep an eye on the hands that may be making a draw around you.
There was some sage advice on that podcast. I don't know about you guys, but I put them on CD-R's and listen to them on the way to and from work. This is an episode I'll listen to several times.
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I think I would also try to limit it to one round per target. My goal would be to take as many out of the fight as possible.
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Take out two or three knee-caps, then watch the rest scatter like roaches!
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I have adapted information from Yakoff Smirnoff to my defensive posture:
Warning shots - When I shoot one or two the leaders should consider that their warning shots and respond accordingly.
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Take out two or three knee-caps, then watch the rest scatter like roaches!
ala Denny Crane? I'll stick to center of mass.
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I have adapted information from Yakoff Smirnoff to my defensive posture:
Warning shots - When I shoot one or two the leaders should consider that their warning shots and respond accordingly.
Knee cap....not a good idea for a lot of reasons.
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Knee cap....not a good idea for a lot of reasons.
Mr. Rastus,
I appreciate you reading and quoting me, but I don't knee cap. The gun is not a tool of warnings, except for the procedure I described. If the gun comes out it is most likely to the point that it is going to go bang, and I use the triangle target - nipple, nipple and zit in the center of the forehead.
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m58, It's pretty obvious Rastus quoted the wrong post.
I'm sure he meant to click on the one by McGyver just before yours.
Happens to me all the time, that's why I make a point of at least proof scanning before I hit the "Post" button. ;D
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Mr. Rastus,
I appreciate you reading and quoting me, but I don't knee cap. The gun is not a tool of warnings, except for the procedure I described. If the gun comes out it is most likely to the point that it is going to go bang, and I use the triangle target - nipple, nipple and zit in the center of the forehead.
I know you would not knee cap....I should have left more of your quote in as a reference to an earlier post to keep from confusing you and others. I was in agreement with what you were saying.
I'm not good enough to shoot a knee cap....and I doubt many would be especially in a situation with adrenalin flowing. Knee cap shot is probably not going to be enough to stop the threat.
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Knee caps are strictly for contact distance "memory enhancement".
SD calls for that triangle m58 mentioned . ;D
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I gotta start using smirky smiles when I post! However, it is fun to rattle cages when we do this ;D
By the way, I am serious about shoot to kill. There is no other reason to pull the gun than to make sure you are not the dead one in a fight to the death (picture my fat taxidermist face here ;) )
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I gotta start using smirky smiles when I post! However, it is fun to rattle cages when we do this ;D
By the way, I am serious about shoot to kill. There is no other reason to pull the gun than to make sure you are not the dead one in a fight to the death (picture my fat taxidermist face here ;) )
Taxidermist? Wait a sec, I thought you worked for a mortuary distrib . . . . .
Oh, I get it. Cute!
;D
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I meant that these flash-mobs are usually kids. (knee-cap shots aren't a warning shot! HEADSHOTS ARE A WARNING SHOT!)
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Taxidermist? Wait a sec, I thought you worked for a mortuary distrib . . . . .
Oh, I get it. Cute!
;D
Yea, but I still carry my Advanced Taxidermy License and several other credentials. Never know when they might come in handy to get rid of the evidence you know ;)
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Yea, but I still carry my Advanced Taxidermy License and several other credentials. Never know when they might come in handy to get rid of the evidence you know ;)
You guys are killin' me here......
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Yea, but I still carry my Advanced Taxidermy License and several other credentials. Never know when they might come in handy to get rid of the evidence you know ;)
So, if we happen to notice an odd pale person, motionless, propped up in the corner of the "corner"..........just let it slide?
;)
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So, if we happen to notice an odd pale person, motionless, propped up in the corner of the "corner"..........just let it slide?
;)
Not pale!
Official definition from the National Boards: Disinfection, temporary preservation and restoration of a life like appearance.
Has anyone noticed that that sexy stripper on the brass pole hasn't moved in over two weeks even with the growing number of ones in her garder ;D
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Has anyone noticed that that sexy stripper on the brass pole hasn't moved in over two weeks even with the growing number of ones in her garder ;D
That is just so wrong on so many levels. :-X
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Has anyone noticed that that sexy stripper on the brass pole hasn't moved in over two weeks even with the growing number of ones in her garder ;D
Awww...MAN!!! and I thought I was starting to get somewhere with her :(
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Awww...MAN!!! and I thought I was starting to get somewhere with her :(
I'm gonna throw up in my mouth if you say you were kissin' on her.
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I'm gonna throw up in my mouth if you say you were kissin' on her.
I wish.... never got up the nerve >:(
Well, I guess it's better that I found out now rather than later....
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Not pale!
Official definition from the National Boards: Disinfection, temporary preservation and restoration of a life like appearance.
You need to move down here and give lessons to the area morticians.
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And I want my $2 back. >:( >:(
;D :o ;D
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Has anyone noticed that that sexy stripper on the brass pole hasn't moved in over two weeks even with the growing number of ones in her garder ;D
I did note the moss growing on her north cheek!
;D
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And I want my $2 back. >:( >:(
For what I saw you doing with her, I think you still owe her some. Just sayin' . . . . . ::)
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For what I saw you doing with her, I think you still owe her some. Just sayin' . . . . . ::)
I gots nothing. :-[
Except to plead the 5th at this point. :-\
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You need to move down here and give lessons to the area morticians.
I'll be in Atlanta in a few weeks talking to some. However, those that come to these events are usually the ones that don't need to be "refreshed."
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I'll be in Atlanta in a few weeks talking to some. However, those that come to these events are usually the ones that don't need to be "refreshed."
Unlike their clients. ;D
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I'll be in Atlanta in a few weeks talking to some. However, those that come to these events are usually the ones that don't need to be "refreshed."
So...is there anything about the rumor of what happened to the morticians who stayed still too long at the convention?
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So...is there anything about the rumor of what happened to the morticians who stayed still too long at the convention?
I don't know about conventions, but you don't want to be caught laying down on the job!
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I don't know about conventions, but you don't want to be caught laying down on the job!
Now that's thinking inside the 'box'. :D
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So...is there anything about the rumor of what happened to the morticians who stayed still too long at the convention?
I'd think those conventions would be kinda dead.
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I'd think those conventions would be kinda dead.
I've heard everyone there is kinda stiff too.
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For some unknown reason this thread has reminded me of an old joke.
A guy calls 911 and tells the dispatcher that his wife is dead. The dispatcher asks how he knows she has died. He replies, "Well, the sex is the same, but the laundry is starting to pile up."
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This flash mob is practicing thievery in numbers.
A group of 50 people were caught on tape as they flooded into a 7-Eleven in Silver Spring, Md., this past weekend and casually pilfered from the shelves as if they didn’t have a care in the world.
The group, comprised mostly of teens and young adults, walked into the convenience store and stole various snacks and drinks just after 11 p.m. on Saturday, according to Montgomery County Police Department officials investigating the incident.
Surveillance video posted on YouTube by the department shows the suspects walking up and down the aisles of the convenience store and grabbing snacks, then placing the food in their pockets.
When cops arrived at the scene, the flash mob scattered, running from the store. Six stragglers were found later with items that they could not prove they paid for, according to police.
Investigators believe that the large group had come from a birthday party in the area.
A similar incident happened in August at another 7-Eleven in nearby Germantown, where 30 youths walked into the store late at night and plucked items off the shelves as if they were shopping. Some were even savvy enough to cover their faces with their shirts to protect their identities from cameras. No arrests were made in the incident.
Officials in Montgomery County are now considering putting a teen curfew in place as well as creating legislation on loitering.
The city of Philadelphia instituted a curfew this past August after a spate of violence involving teen flash mobs.
Police departments in several U.S. cities have been investigating flash mob incidents for the past several months -- large groups of youths suddenly appear, as if out of thin air, to commit assaults, robberies and other crimes, according to an earlier report by FoxNews.com
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/22/flash-mob-rules-at-maryland-7-eleven/#ixzz1eSiRsMmM
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This flash mob is practicing thievery in numbers.
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After Katrina the surrounding towns had to limit the number of people in a store to prevent thievery in numbers. The Lowes would only let 5 parties of two in at a time...and that's a big store. The local car parts stores would only let two people in at a time. Everyone had "guards" posted at the doors if they were open and everyone limited entrance. The car parts store I went to explained they had New Orleans riff raff walk in with numbers of 10 to 15 picking up batteries,..heck whatever they wanted and walking out...it disoriented the clerks and you can't shoot for walking off with merchandise and the cops were helping people who were stranded. A clerk also couldn't lock the door with several of the thieves already inside the building refusing to leave.
Opportunistic thieves. I was wondering when the mob approach to stealing was going to take off....looks like Summer of '11 was the beginning of a national trend.
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The timing of this is perfect! For those not following the news, or not getting the info of fly over land up here: On Monday, December 26, 2011 over 200 people were involved in fights that broke out all over the Mall of America in Bloomington, MN. The first fights were reported in the food court, but they quickly spread through out the entire mall. First reports were that it was based on on rumors of rappers to the mall, but soon it was determined that "social media" was involved. It has been very sketchy since.
Issues:
Awareness - How do you spot this coming when you are in a setting of ten's of thousands of people of all walks of life. The only thing the mob is going to be doing out of the ordinary is watching for a signal. It may be watching clocks, checking phones or watching for a physical signal - normal daily life.
Self Defense - How do you defend? Who are the instigators and who are the victims? Who are the opportunists and who are just mixed up in it?
Retreat - Hundreds of people involved in several areas of a confined and crowded facility. Where do you go, and how do you get there?
Weapons - This was well planned and executed. Many were arrested, and at last report there were no weapons found. This shows the importance of being well prepared in what you plan and how you react. I'm not saying that there isn't a place for weapons use in this setting, but you had better know why you would use a weapon in this setting and why you did!
I don't care if it is mass violence like the Mall of America or it is a preppy choir in a food court, I see a level of danger in any flash mob. If for no other reason they are an organized distraction that can offer an opportunity to criminals to exploit. A well prepared criminal will react just as fast to the opportunity of a flash mob as a well prepared citizen will react to the possible danger. Sadly, the criminal has fewer restrictions and more options to capitalize than a citizen has to protect themself.
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M-58, the lack of any weapons in your example is the perfect example of why a less than lethal defensive tool should be carried along with a firearm.How many of Y'all carry pepper spray and know how and when to use it?
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M-58, the lack of any weapons in your example is the perfect example of why a less than lethal defensive tool should be carried along with a firearm.How many of Y'all carry pepper spray and know how and when to use it?
There is legal precedent that numbers alone constitute a potentially lethal threat.
Being beaten to death with out a weapon is a fairly common cause of death in murder cases, far more common than death by gunshot.
If I am in fear for my life or the lives of others lethal force is the only reasonable resort.
Half measures will only increase the risk of injury to myself and others by prolonging the incident.
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Tom, if you can prove that you went to a less than lethal option before using deadly force it will look a lot better for you in court.
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Tom, if you can prove that you went to a less than lethal option before using deadly force it will look a lot better for you in court.
Not my problem.
My problem is surviving what I reasonably feel is a life threatening situation.
Presenting it in the best possible light is a problem for the lawyer.
If that isn't your priority then you will not survive and you will not care what the jury thinks.
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Tom, if you can prove that you went to a less than lethal option before using deadly force it will look a lot better for you in court.
At this point I am trained and certified to use lethal force. I have an understanding of how to use my light in hand combat, but I am only trained in using it as a deterrent or blinding tool. I am scheduled for training and instructor certification in pepper spray items, but at this time I am not.
With all of this if I feel in danger of serious injury or loss of life my training and ability leans toward lethal force. Once I get past the usefulness of the light I have no other tool to stop the threat other than lethal. It would be easier for me to defend my use of lethal force than to use a pepper product without the training.
Best tool is still awareness and react before you find yourself in a situation where any resistance is needed.
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Cross posted from "less lethal"
If you are in fear of injury or death, a gun is the most efficient, effective, and practical solution.
If you are not in fear of injury or death then you have no excuse for initiating violence and will be in the wrong even if you slap the other person.
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Cross posted from "less lethal"
If you are in fear of injury or death, a gun is the most efficient, effective, and practical solution.
If you are not in fear of injury or death then you have no excuse for initiating violence and will be in the wrong even if you slap the other person.
+1
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Tom, if you survive and can prove that you went to a less than lethal option before using deadly force it will look a lot better for you in court.
FIFY
Disparity of force as grounds for the use of deadly force goes back to the Old Testament when God struck down a mob coming to do bad things to Lot and his family.
Would you convict a 88 year-old lady of murder if she shot and killed a 25 year-old thug that assaulter her in her home, parking lot, bingo hall or park because she didn't hit him with her cane first?
God made man, Colt made man equal.
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Tom, if you can prove that you went to a less than lethal option before using deadly force it will look a lot better for you in court.
Horse crap. I have serious heart problems simply pissing me off can induce a fatal heart attack which has , in the past, been ruled as murder.
Any physical attack has the potential to be fatal and therefore justifies a lethal force response.
If you are not physically threatened then YOU are the one in the wrong for escalating the situation by resorting to any physical response, including flashing a light in the other persons eyes.
To look at it another way , this is cross posted from the "Less lethal" thread :
The person who replies to physical danger with POTENTIALLY, (no magic bullets) lethal force, in other words a gun, is aiming to end the threat as rapidly as possible.
The person who resorts to "less than Lethal means" simply seeks to inflicted extended pain and suffering on an individual as punishment for making poor life choices. It indicates a very disturbed and poorly adjusted personality.
Pepper spray ? You want to employ "chemical weaponry ?
Isn't that why they hung Saddam ?
Reply
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Pepper Spray= oleo resin capsicum
oleo = margarin,greasy
Resin = sticky,gooey
capsicum = the heart of pepper makes the heat,Made by nature,all natural
So it is not a chemical weapon
Effects=Swells mucus membrane,uncontrollable gagging/coughing,Gasping for breath,Intense burning,eyes slam shut,Inability to catch breath
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Pepper Spray= oleo resin capsicum
oleo = margarin,greasy
Resin = sticky,gooey
capsicum = the heart of pepper makes the heat,Made by nature,all natural
So it is not a chemical weapon
Effects=Swells mucus membrane,uncontrollable gagging/coughing,Gasping for breath,Intense burning,eyes slam shut,Inability to catch breath
Geneva conventions classify Tearing agents as chemical weapons origin of the components is not relevant.
The nerve agent Ricin is also of organic derivatives.
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Tom, if you can prove that you went to a less than lethal option before using deadly force it will look a lot better for you in court.
Not to be contentious, but that could be in New York. However, for me what happens in court is secondary. I am into risk avoidance (especially with the life of my family or myself) so my default is firmly below:
Not my problem.
My problem is surviving what I reasonably feel is a life threatening situation.
............
Avoidance is my preferred course of action.
I have just watched the initial Best Defense programming which was on flash mobs. I especially agree that, ignoring any legal considerations, being kicked on the ground with boots is a lethal threat. I also did not know about The Doghouse at the edge of downtown Tulsa...I suspect I'll patronize them this week.
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Avoidance is my preferred course of action.
I have just watched the initial Best Defense programming which was on flash mobs. I especially agree that, ignoring any legal considerations, being kicked on the ground with boots is a lethal threat. I also did not know about The Doghouse at the edge of downtown Tulsa...I suspect I'll patronize them this week.
Danger, Will Robinson - Danger!!! ;)
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Great thought provoking episode !
Avoidance and awareness is key.
If you let them get too close as to be hitting you, they might get your gun or guns away from you.
It could happen to the best of us.
So, avoid ,be aware of what's going on around you at all times.
Distance is your friend.
Once in a CQB situation, proper weapons retention and engagement becomes paramount.
Great show Huh ?
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Danger, Will Robinson - Danger!!! ;)
I suspect the greatest danger will be bustin' this diet I've been on for a couple of weeks. The Doghouse maps out just past the Home Depot and over a block so I can make it a dual trip.
Distance is indeed your friend. Good point
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The Flash mob scenario on The Best Defense is now available online in full version:
http://www.downrange.tv/blog/flash-mob-scenario-from-the-best-defense/14298/
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The Flash mob scenario on The Best Defense is now available online in full version:
http://www.downrange.tv/blog/flash-mob-scenario-from-the-best-defense/14298/
very cool ta for getting that online :)