The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Majer on July 29, 2011, 11:08:34 AM
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Ok, I've been a Colt customer since I first got my CCW over 25 years ago. I have a 6 inch King Cobra that I really like. I took it out of the safe the other day and found that the red insert in the front sight had cracked and come out. Not a problem I thought, I called Colt up and asked about getting a replacement sent out and was told"they didn't have enough where they could sell one to me ,BUT if I wanted to send my gun in they would install it and bill me for the repair and shipping". Now I have called Colt before for small parts and had always been told No problem,We'll get that right out to you No charge. I was willing to pay for the part, But for them to tell me they would only let me have it if I shipped the gun to them That's just nuts. I can't afford $70+ to send a gun back for replacementof a $10.00 part that I can install myself.
OK, rant over. >:(
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Legit rant in my opinion:
They don't have enough to send you one, but they will replace it for you at a price. Sounds like the service department is slow, so they are only selling parts installed these days.
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I worked customer service a few years. Best thing to do is call back. If you get the same story, just ask for the persons supervisor. You don't need to throw that guy under the bus or anything. Just calmly tell the supervisor your story, and find it hard to believe a company you've supported for years is taking this approach. The guy you spoke with may have not been just acting like an idiot, but may have been seriously directed to say such. The VERY least you'll get is a better explanation. And you'll most likely get the part. If they're not complete boobs.
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I worked customer service a few years. Best thing to do is call back. If you get the same story, just ask for the persons supervisor. You don't need to throw that guy under the bus or anything. Just calmly tell the supervisor your story, and find it hard to believe a company you've supported for years is taking this approach. The guy you spoke with may have not been just acting like an idiot, but may have been seriously directed to say such. The VERY least you'll get is a better explanation. And you'll most likely get the part. If they're not complete boobs.
Based on Colt's management track record, going back to the Patterson NJ plant, they may be complete boobs.
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Brownells sells stuff to make your own inserts. If you only get the color you want instead of the whole kit, it's under $40. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=22791/product/FRONT_SIGHT_INSERT_KIT
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Make an insert out of an appropriate colored toothbrush and SG it in place.
Richard
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it's a clear red insert, made to pick up light, have to find a colt part to make it look right
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As posted, call back. Chances are you won't get a "boob" and get someone a little more dedicated to customer service.
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Colt CS blew goats back in the '90's when they told me my POS that looked like an Afghan farmer had made it out of a chunk of RR track and shout 2FOOT groups was 'Within Normal Limits'. I might own an old Colt (pre-1970) but nothing thay made later than that and it would have to be something like a Python. Screw Colt and the horse they rode in on!
I spent 6 years going to gun shows and telling people why they should not buy Colt's, I cost them more than $500,000 bucks before their last bankruptcy just in people who bought something else while I was helping them. If you gave me one I would sell it and buy a real weapon.
P.S. f..k 'em!
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Colt's old slogan: "If It's Not A Colt....It's Just A Copy."
Colt's new slogan: "If It's Not A Colt....You'll Be HAPPY!" Bill T.
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Never had to deal with Colt's CS (or any other gun-related CS, for that matter....just luck I guess).......I've had nothing but good service out of all my Colt pistols. I have heard very good reviews on their newer guns........ To each his own, YMMV.
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I just got off the phone with colt and was now told they don't have any for sale and to try the used gun part companies. I guess I'll just have to tell people not to buy any colt's products from now on. >:( >:(
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I'm so pleased I got hooked on S&W revolvers and not Colt. S&W may have their faults but getting parts isn't one of them.
There is one COLT part I'd love to have several spares for and can't get from either Colt or the aftermarket. The finger collect for the Model 70. I happen to be in the minority and like it. When (IF) mine ever breaks, I'll be converting the solid ones.
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I'm so pleased I got hooked on S&W revolvers and not Colt. S&W may have their faults but getting parts is one of them.
There is one COLT part I'd love to have several spares for and can't get from either Colt or the aftermarket. The finger collect for the Model 70. I happen to be in the minority and like it. When (IF) mine ever breaks, I'll be converting the solid ones.
Count me in that minority also, Alf....... It really makes the series 70 shoot well, IMHO.
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is the finger collet for a series 80 the same as the 70? if so I have one somewhere n my parts bin,I'll happily trade it for a King Cobra front sight... ;D
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is the finger collet for a series 80 the same as the 70? if so I have one somewhere n my parts bin,I'll happily trade it for a King Cobra front sight... ;D
I don't think so. I think the finger collet was only on the Colt '70s in their original run....1970 till the '80 was introduced. I believe all the 1911's since 1980, including the '70 reincarnation use a solid bushing.
I'm putting more and more rounds through mine. About 50 a week, now that I've fixed it up where I enjoy shooting it. We'll see how long the bushing lasts.
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The bushing I have was taken out of my Series 80 1911 has 4 "spring" fingers on it,I replaced it with a fitted solid bushing.
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Majer, was that a new '80? I'm not a Colt officiando, but I had always thought they discontinued the finger bushing/collet with the '80 model. Hey, I could be wrong. (Frequently are....just ask the wife.)
I just happened to "NEED" a 1911, in 1971. The '70 model had just hit the shelves and I shelled out an obscene amount of $190 for this one brand new. Considering I was an E4 at the time that was a whole lot of money. I never particularly enjoyed shooting it, until recently when I changed out the trigger. Now it is truely a pleasure to shoot.
Of course, I've poured over $500 into it over the years just in new sights alone. I doubt if I could even find the originals. Wouldn't do any good anyway, since the slide has been "cut" to accommodate the existing FO sights.
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Alf. Yup was brand new in 1985 when I bought it for the princely sum of $294.99 plus tax.
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Thanks Majer. Shows how bad my Colt knowledge is. I'll expand my search for spare bushing to include the early '80 models.
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Thanks Majer. Shows how bad my Colt knowledge is. I'll expand my search for spare bushing to include the early '80 models.
You are not alone, Alf (once again). I also thought it was limited to the Ser. 70 guns except in the Ser 80 National Match guns. After some digging on other forums (via google search) it appears that up until around 1988 Colt used the collet bushing, as well as some sights, on the series 80 guns. I will continue to try and find actual Colt verification.
***EDIT***
The following is not official, but lends some extra info on the subject:
Series 70 vs. Series 80
There have been a lot of questions posted by new members and 1911 owners as to what the difference is between Series 70 and Series 80 Colts. This question is best answered by first giving the following history:
Colt is the original manufacturer of 1911 pattern pistols, having made versions for both the military as well as commercial market since regular production began in January 1912. The commercial versions were nearly identical to the military ones, differing only in markings and finish. Following World War Two military production ended, but the commercial guns remained in production with only minor changes such as deletion of the lanyard loop and a larger thumb safety shelf. These pistols are known to collectors as "pre-Series 70" guns, as they pre-dated the Series 70 guns introduced in 1970. It was during this year that Colt introduced the first major design change to the Government Model in nearly 50 years. In an attempt to improve the accuracy of production guns the barrel bushing was redesigned, along with the barrel. In this system the bushing utilized four spring-steel "fingers" that gripped the enlarged diameter of the muzzle end of the barrel as the gun returned to battery. By tightening the fit of barrel and bushing in this manner Colt was able to improve the accuracy of the average production gun, without going through the expense of hand fitting the older solid barrel bushing to the barrel and slide. Models using the new barrel/bushing setup were the Government Model and Gold Cup, which were designated the "Mark IV Series 70" or simply Series 70 pistols. It should be noted that the shorter 4 1/4" barreled Commander pistols retained the use of the older solid bushing design and thus were never designated Series 70 pistols, although one hears the term erroneously applied to Commanders from time to time. The new "collet" bushing (as it came to be known) generally worked quite well, however it was occasionally prone to breakage (see post #3 below) so it was eventually phased out around 1988 as Colt reverted back to using the solid bushing in all of their pistols.
The single biggest change to the 1911 design came about in 1983, when Colt introduced the "MK IV Series 80" pistols. These guns incorporated a new firing pin block safety system, where a series of internal levers and a plunger positively blocked the firing pin from moving until the trigger was pressed, thus eliminating the possibility of the gun discharging if dropped onto a hard surface or struck hard. In this instance however, ALL of Colt's 1911-pattern pistols incorporated the new design change so even the Commander and Officer's ACP pistols became known as Series 80 guns. With the previous paragraph in mind, it is important to know that from 1983 until 1988 the early Government Model and Gold Cup Series 80 pistols used the Series 70-type barrel and bushing as well, although they were known only as Series 80 guns.
There was one other design change made to the Series 80 guns as well, and that was a re-designed half-cock notch. On all models the notch was changed to a flat shelf instead of a hook, and it is located where half-cock is engaged just as the hammer begins to be pulled back. This way the half-cock notch will still perform its job of arresting the hammer fall should your thumb slip while manually cocking the pistol, yet there is no longer a hook to possibly break and allow the hammer to fall anyway. With the notch now located near the at-rest position, you can pull the trigger on a Series 80 while at half-cock and the hammer WILL fall. However, since it was already near the at-rest position the hammer movement isn't sufficient to impact the firing pin with any amount of force.
Regarding the "clone" guns (1911-pattern pistols made by manufacturers other than Colt), so far Para-Ordnance, SIG, Auto Ordnance, and Taurus have adopted Colt's Series 80 or a similar firing pin block system as well. Kimber's Series II pistols and the new S&W 1911s have a FP safety also, but it is a different system than Colt's and is disabled by depressing the grip safety. No manufacturers aside from Colt ever adopted the Series 70 barrel/bushing arrangement, so technically there are no "Series 70" clone guns. What this means is that design-wise most of them share commonality with the pre-Series 70 guns, using neither the firing pin block NOR the collet bushing. Because of this it is important to remember that only Colt Series 80 models, and a couple of "clone" 1911 makers use a firing pin block. Older Colts and most other clone guns lack a firing pin safety and can possibly discharge if there is a round in the chamber and the gun is dropped on a hard surface, or if struck a blow hard enough to allow the firing pin to jump forward and impact the primer of the loaded round. By the way, for the past few years Colt has been producing new pistols out of their Custom Shop that lack the S80 firing pin safety. These are the Gunsite and CCO models, WW1 and WW2 GI replicas, and a reintroduced original-style Series 70 in both blued and stainless steel that should appeal to 1911 purists. Interestingly, all of these use a solid barrel bushing, so mechanically they are more similar to the original pre-Series 70 models despite being advertised by Colt as having a "Series 70 firing system".
Regarding the controversy involving getting a decent trigger pull on a Series 80 gun, it is only of importance if the gunsmith attempts to create a super-light pull (under four pounds) for target or competition use. In defense/carry guns where a four-pound or heavier pull is necessary, the added friction of the Series 80 parts adds little or nothing to the pull weight or feel. A good gunsmith can do an excellent trigger job on a Series 80 and still leave all the safety parts in place, although he will probably charge a little more than if the gun were a Series 70 since there are more parts to work with. But any gunsmith who tells you that you can't get a good trigger on a Series 80 without removing the safety parts is likely either lazy or incompetent.
1991 vs. 1911
For those wondering what the difference is between these pistols, the fact is there really is none. Back in 1991 Colt decided to market an economy version of their basic Series 80 Government Model. The polished blue was changed to an all-matte parkerized (later matte blue) finish, checkered rubber grip panels were used, and the serial number sequence was a resumption of the ones originally given to US military M1911A1 pistols. The resulting pistol was cleverly named "M1991A1", after the year of introduction. Mechanically however they are the same as any other Colt Series 80, 1911-type pistol. Around 2001 or so Colt upgraded these pistols with polished slide and frame flats, nicer-looking slide rollmarks, stainless barrels, and wood grips (blued models only). The newer ones are commonly called "New Rollmark (NRM)" pistols by Colt enthusiasts, to differentiate them from the "Old Rollmark (ORM)" 1991 pistols. The earlier guns are easily identified by having "COLT M1991A1" in large block letters across the left face of the slide. The NRM Colts will have three smaller lines of text saying "COLT'S-GOVERNMENT MODEL-.45 AUTOMATIC CALIBER", along with Colt's rampant horse logo.
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=15201
I often see threads started by members asking about so-called "collet" barrel bushings, usually in reference to Colt pistols. The collet bushing was introduced by Colt in 1970, and is easily identified by being made of spring steel with four "fingers" at the rear. The last batch of standard commercial Governments in 1970 incorporated the new barrel bushing and matching barrel (which has a slightly belled muzzle) as a test run. These pistols (approx. 1500 made) had conventional post-war commercial markings, but had a special "BB" marking underneath the serial number. Later that year the new system was formally introduced as the "Accurizor barrel and bushing" with the new Mark IV/Series 70 models later that same year, which included all 5" barreled pistols (Government Model and Gold Cup). The shorter 4.25" Commander models continued to use solid bushings. How they worked was that the spring "fingers" of the bushing were pushed out by the belled end of the barrel during lockup, and wedged between the barrel and inside surface of the slide to tighten the fit and improve accuracy. For the most part it worked great, as the accuracy of a typical box-stock Series 70 usually exceeded that of earlier commercial pistols with standard bushings. It was basically a means of improving out-of-the-box accuracy on production pistols without going through the expense of hand-fitting match bushings like those used on custom accurized pistols.
The collet bushings remained in use past the the introduction of the Series 80 models in 1983, but were eventually phased out around 1988 or so when the solid bushings were reinstated. The reason for them being discontinued was due to a rare but potentially serious issue with the bushings. During the manufacture of any mass-production item the matter of keeping within allowable tolerances is always an issue, and in the case of the Series 70 bushing system it was critical. As mentioned in Jerry Kuhnhausen's excellent book The Colt .45 Automatic, a Shop Manual Vol.1, if the slide inside diameter (ID) was machined too large the fingers of the bushing couldn't wedge between the slide and barrel snugly, and accuracy would be lackluster. If the slide ID was machined too small then the fingers would have insufficient room to expand during lockup, causing them to flex and buckle at a point just ahead of the pads that contacted the belled end of the barrel. Other contributing factors could be a slightly oversized bushing (creating the same clearance problem) or a lack of squareness at the front edge of the slide. Eventually one of the fingers could break off due to being overstressed, with the broken piece floating around inside the weapon. Since the pistol would continue to operate normally it would likely go unnoticed by the user, at least until it jammed somewhere inside the pistol, possibly locking up the pistol while it was still loaded. Gunsmiths weren't usually too happy to receive a still-loaded Colt that was jammed up in this fashion, especially given the fact that freeing it up usually involved putting the pistol in a vice, taking a rawhide mallet and banging the slide back and forth until things came loose. It wasn't healthy for the gun, and it wasn't healthy for the gunsmith either if there still was a round in the chamber.
There are many owners out there who say they've already put thousands of rounds through their pistols without experiencing a broken bushing. Odds are they won't, because the vast majority of pistols were manufactured within tolerances. It's just that hypothetical "one in a thousand" that may end up having a problem if the pistol was slightly out of spec and fired enough to overstress the bushing. But that is why I usually tell people to replace the collet bushing with a solid one anyway just to be on the safe side. Your pistol will probably never have a problem, but the fact is you really never know when it'll fail. It may a long time before the fingers finally succumb to fatigue and break off. Maybe after 5,000 rounds, maybe after 50,000. I've kept the one in mine simply because it's more a safe queen than a shooter, but if it were being used for competition or defense I'd replace the bushing with a standard solid unit.
One frequently-heard comment is that you should never pull the collet bushing off the barrel, otherwise you may stres the fingers further and cause them to break. This is not true, as you can be rest assured there are greater stresses imparted on the bushing during actual firing than if you simply popped it off the end of your barrel! However it is true that when disassembling a Series 70 you should retract the slide at least 1/4" when trying to rotate the bushing, as you'll be releasing the bushing from engagement with the slide/barrel and thus making it a whole lot easier to turn.
And yes, to answer another frequently-asked question, a standard non-oversize solid bushing will work on an early Series 70 or 80 pistol. The belled muzzle on a Series 70 barrel is still the same outside diameter as a conventional "straight" barrel, so a factory Colt solid bushing should drop in without fitting. Aftermarket oversized units (Wilson, Brown, etc.) will of course require gunsmith fitting to the slide and barrel as with any other type of 1911 pistol.
Once again, the only factory pistols you're likely to see them in are Colt's Government Models and Gold Cups made from 1970 through 1988. Commander and Officers ACP models never used them nor did any of the so-called "clone" makers, although I am aware of some aftermarket companies (such as Bar-Sto) who offered collet bushings for Commander-sized pistols for a short time during the 1970's.
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Cool. Now I know more than my leaky brain can absorb. ;)
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Was that a Grisham novel?
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Was that a Grisham novel?
Naw, better subject matter, IMHO. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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If you only read 1 Grisham novel read "The Partner" it's a chore to get through, but the last couple chapters make it all worthwhile !
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If you only read 1 Grisham novel read "The Partner" it's a chore to get through, but the last couple chapters make it all worthwhile !
I have it but haven't read it yet!
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Wade though it. When you get sick of it keep going, the end makes it all worth while. ;D
It made me laugh till tears ran down my face and I could not breathe.
But don't skip any of it or you will not get the joke.