The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: billt on August 03, 2011, 05:25:29 AM
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I'm through with all of these so called "Energy Efficient" appliances, light bulbs, and everything else. 2 years ago I went through our entire house and replaced every incandescent bulb I could find with CFL's. Including all of my outside lighting around my pool. I think I replaced somewhere in the neighborhood of 43 light bulbs total. I didn't notice a dime in savings. This in spite of the fact they claim these new CFL's require only 18% of the energy it takes to power a similar incandescent bulb.
Next we replaced all of our appliances over the last year and a half. Again we went with premium, "energy efficient" appliances. New water heater, new electric stove, new fridge and dishwasher, and we went from a builder grade 4,000 watt electric clothes dryer, to a top of the line gas model. Again, I have yet to see any savings. If there is I sure as hell can't detect it.
The final straw came this last spring when we replaced our original, 13 year old A/C system. We went with a SEER 16 premium Rheem unit that was........you guessed it, "Energy Efficient". My electric bill isn't any less now, than it was before we bought all of this crap. My intention was with retirement coming in another 3 years or so, to get my monthly utilities down as low as possible to minimize my monthly expenditures. Nothing has changed. I was even willing to add more insulation, but the installer said I didn't need it. He told me my attic was one of the better insulated ones he's been in. Moral of story, they can ram all of this so called "Energy Efficient" nonsense. I think most all of it is nothing more than a big sales ploy. My appliances were getting old, and needed replacing. But if I had to do it over again, I wouldn't have spent premium dollars to purchase anything "Energy Efficient". If there in fact is any savings, the stuff will crap out long before it pays for itself. Bill T.
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You have saved a lot and don't even realize it.. Remember those "Rising energy costs " people have been bitching about ?
My electric bill went up 50% over the last 3 or 4 years.
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First, I agree with you, Billt. Too much hype about all this energy efficiency.
However, rather than looking at you bill for the dollars, have you looked at the actual kiloWatts-hours, consumed each month. As Tom is saying it could because of rising rates making it seem like there's no savings.
RELATED: I called to task the local park service and newspaper about hyping a solar panel project. The local park got a $750K grant to go solar and were so proud that it will save them $25,000 a year. I pointed out that's fine but at a 4% return on money their $750K could be earning $30K per year, so while the park service was saving cash flow, we the taxpayers were actually loosing $5K (or more) a year. Another example of inefficiency of government as well as how solar isn't all that it's hyped up to be.
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Yep, on a few percent difference at best. The A/C unit you bought is priced to payout the extra amount of money it cost you in 5 to 10 years. So, if you paid and extra..say $2,500 for it you may expect to get $250 to $500 per year in savings which works out to $20 to $40 a month in savings if it was that much better than what you had previously.
Solar energy is too expensive and too expensive to payout before the cells lose their ability to produce significant energy. It's a fools game...Al is right about solar costing more than it saves. Solar may be good where there is no power available.
However, lately I have purchased a few of the newer LED lights. Quite expensive, but if they last 40 to 50 thousand hours they will be cheaper than incadescents in cost and use far less energy than even CFL's. As you've found, your light bill is not your primary electrical cost!!!
PS I'll never buy another Rheem...been there and learned my lesson.
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CFLs are bogus in almost every way. They do not last as long as promised. You can't even throw them in the trash when they fail. And, if you break one, the instructions call for you to get kids and pets out of the house.
On the other hand, replacing my ancient A/C last Fall has saved me nearly 40% in electricity on a comparitive month-to-month basis--and I am in a warm state--Florida--where it's on nearly all the time.
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I am in the energy industry and spend a lot of time looking at efficiency projects for clients. With CFLs you will see savings if they are on half the time every day, if not you will see very little savings. A Killowatt/hour (kWh) is about $.15 depedning on where you live. If you switch from a 60 watt bulb to a 13 watt CFL you will save 47 watts/hour. If you do the math you will save about $.15 every 20 hours you would have had that light on. If you have that light on about 60 hours a month (2 hours a night for a month) you will see upwards of $.45/month savings from that switch - not enough to move the needle. The good news is that you won't be changing bulbs for a long time.
As for the applicances, you should be saving on those and agree that the likely culprit is higher energy prices as was previously noted. Also, human nature is that you will set the temperature lower in the summer since you have a more efficient unit. Hope that helps a little. If not, think of all the spotted owls, polar bears and hippies oyu are saving.
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CFLs are bogus in almost every way. They do not last as long as promised. You can't even throw them in the trash when they fail. And, if you break one, the instructions call for you to get kids and pets out of the house.
On the other hand, replacing my ancient A/C last Fall has saved me nearly 40% in electricity on a comparitive month-to-month basis--and I am in a warm state--Florida--where it's on nearly all the time.
It could be as Tom mentioned. Electric rates have gone up, but I haven't seen any increase on my bill, so perhaps there is something there. As far as the CFL's. I've had a few go bad, maybe 3 or 4. I have had a couple that delay. You turn on the switch, and it takes about a second or two before they come on. I agree that you must leave them on for long periods to realize any savings. Fluorescents, CFL or otherwise, don't do well if they're turned on and off a lot.
As far as all of the "danger" with them, I haven't paid any attention. I haven't broken one, but I toss them like any other bulb. There is very little Mercury in them. Bill T.
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Bill
Here's a thought. FPL, our local energy company is a huge leader in trying to encourage increased efficiency. Hell, they gave me a rebate of almost a grand when I bought my new A/C., and I got a rebate on my new fridge and water heater as well. The reason for this largess is that when they have to buy power over the grid from companies like Enron (or more accurately, whoever their successor is) they get hosed, and the utility commission won't let them pass on all the cost, so it behooves them to keep usage at a manageable, and thus profitable, level. I doubt they are shelling out all this money to subsidize efficient appliances if they don't notice a difference. They are a for profit company, and as much as I appreciate the $750 rebate on my new Trane, I don't think they did it out of kindness. ;D
One other thing to look at is your kilowatt hours. FPL does a free "energy audit" if you ask them. They'll look at your bills for the last few years, average out daily power usage and examine your appliances, windows, insulation etc.. I mean even our monthly bill compares the hours you used this month to those you used last year. My bill has not gone down much in price, but it has in hours. If your power company has the energy audit option, I'd do it. Its free and you learn useful stuff.
FQ13
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Another thing is a lot of these newer appliances over advertise their capabilities. For example we bought one of those top of the line, super high capacity washers. They advertise you can do 17 pairs of jeans in one load. There is no way you could and expect to get them clean. About the only advantage I see with it is it has a 1,200 RPM spin cycle. It literally spins the clothes to an almost dry condition. Because of that you don't have to run the dryer as long. It also cuts down on shrinkage. But it really doesn't hold all that more. Bill T.
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Billt, our local utility company shows a usage chart for the prior 12-15 months or so on every bill, so definitely ask them if yours does not to give you a breakdown of your usage. You may have "saved" and not realized it. Remember, tho, the "public" utilities are for-profit corporations, so as you and your neighbors cut usage, they have to raise rates to maintain or improve their revenue/profit streams.
I will also remind everyone of the research report the Dumbocrats commissioned about a decade ago that predicted that there was something on the order of $15-25 Billion in new revenue every year by shilling the "green" mantra pushing "energy efficiency". You paid more, got less than what you expected and were led to believe, and somewhere someone is enjoying the added cash flow.
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Billt, our local utility company shows a usage chart for the prior 12-15 months or so on every bill, so definitely ask them if yours does not to give you a breakdown of your usage. You may have "saved" and not realized it. Remember, tho, the "public" utilities are for-profit corporations, so as you and your neighbors cut usage, they have to raise rates to maintain or improve their revenue/profit streams.
That may be true in North Dakota Path, but its not in Arizona and Florida. People flock here every day, and to keep up with the ever increasing demand, power companies have to build new plants (which is a regulatory nightmare) and buy power from over the grid. Both are costly. Here, they actually save money when folks use less. In your neck of the woods, with a stable or shrinking population, I'd expect them to be flogging 1,000 watt floodlights for your yard and encouraging you to set your thermostats at 80 degrees in winter and 70 degrees in the summer to bring in more cash. ;)
FQ13
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That may be true in North Dakota Path, but its not in Arizona and Florida. People flock here every day, and to keep up with the ever increasing demand, power companies have to build new plants (which is a regulatory nightmare) and buy power from over the grid. Both are costly. Here, they actually save money when folks use less. In your neck of the woods, with a stable or shrinking population, I'd expect them to be flogging 1,000 watt floodlights for your yard and encouraging you to set your thermostats at 80 degrees in winter and 70 degrees in the summer to bring in more cash. ;)
FQ13
Not exactly.....Where do you think FL and AZ not to mention CA are buy power FROM? They force us to ration so they have more to sell to you...and then charge us at a higher rate because we are considered "low use" customers, and how dare they not make just as much off of us. >:(
We have HUGE wind farms (which I won't delve into) and pretty much all of the power produced by these P.O.S.s goes out of state. And here is the real kicker, and it works the same way with our oil too. We produce it, and refine it, and send it out of state. Then if we want to use it, we have to buy it back at an inflated rate. WTF is up with that? We can't even use the resources that we produce? We have to sell it, and then buy it back WITH mark up? This all goes back to commerce clause B.S.
So hope you like our wind power, and gasoline, it'd be nice to keep some for ourselves. We have long drives between towns.
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I don't particularly like the type of light they make. And having them on a circuit causes "dirty electricity" for everything else on it in that the CFLs mess up the cycle rate (can even be unhealthy to be around). But, I've got a "Kilowatt" meter that you plug into the wall, then plug your stuff into, and it'll tell you what the exact amperage draw is for that device. The CFL's DO live up to their power saving claim.
We're an "I want it now!", live for the moment society. So piss on the fact that they become toxic waste when you throw one away! :(
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We're an "I want it now!", live for the moment society. So piss on the fact that they become toxic waste when you throw one away! :(
Just think about that every time your kid pisses you off. It'll make you smile. ;D
FQ13
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Even here in NH we have 5 "wind farms" and they want to put in another.
Even with heating, our peak usage is in the summer. But here's the thing, you've got these "Ecof*ckers" bitching about everything.
The 2 oil fired plants in Newington pollute to much, (they meet EPA rules ) the oil fired plant in Bow pollutes to much, (again totally EPA compliant ) the nuke plant in Seabrook is, well, a nuke plant, you'd think they wanted to set off a bomb the way these A holes carry on about that. All the hydro plants are bad for the fish, the wind farms are "unsightly".
So PSNH said "f*ck it, we'll buy power from Hydro Quebec". Now the A holes with a cord or charger for every damned thing they own are protesting where they want to run the power lines.
You just can not satisfy these idiots so to hell with them. Get over it or buy a f*cking candle.
(oops, I forgot, sulfur in the matches )
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It could be as Tom mentioned. Electric rates have gone up, but I haven't seen any increase on my bill, so perhaps there is something there. As far as the CFL's. I've had a few go bad, maybe 3 or 4. I have had a couple that delay. You turn on the switch, and it takes about a second or two before they come on. I agree that you must leave them on for long periods to realize any savings. Fluorescents, CFL or otherwise, don't do well if they're turned on and off a lot.
As far as all of the "danger" with them, I haven't paid any attention. I haven't broken one, but I toss them like any other bulb. There is very little Mercury in them. Bill T.
Some CFL bulbs are built with the delay, some have it designed out. Check the package, it should say which it is.
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Just a side note, as this is something that hits home for me. While still not fully proven, they have linked mercury to Autism. And with the guidelines required for cleaning up a CFL, it doesn't seem worth it. I say that this hits home because I have a younger brother who is Autistic. Plus, I really don't like the idea of having the risk of mercury in my home. I don't care how trace the amount.
(I know you guys are going to give me crap because of all my reloading supplies and every other toxic substance that we all have, but if there is a safer, AND CHEAPER alternative that has been proven over time, why would I switch?)
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Just a side note, as this is something that hits home for me. While still not fully proven, they have linked mercury to Autism. And with the guidelines required for cleaning up a CFL, it doesn't seem worth it. I say that this hits home because I have a younger brother who is Autistic. Plus, I really don't like the idea of having the risk of mercury in my home. I don't care how trace the amount.
(I know you guys are going to give me crap because of all my reloading supplies and every other toxic substance that we all have, but if there is a safer, AND CHEAPER alternative that has been proven over time, why would I switch?)
Why indeed? Tungsten bulbs haven't failed me yet. Hell, I liked the $15 torchiere halogen lights you could buy at Home Depot and am pissed that they are no longer available. Fire hazard, yes, just be careful! Its called being a responsible adult. >:(
FQ13
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Why indeed? Tungsten bulbs haven't failed me yet. Hell, I liked the $15 torchiere halogen lights you could buy at Home Depot and am pissed that they are no longer available. Fire hazard, yes, just be careful! Its called being a responsible adult. >:(
FQ13
Personally I'm all about LED. Burns cool, provides cleaner, brighter light, and uses a fraction of the energy. Downside? Cost of course. But with more people buying them, the cost IS coming down. Very slowly, but it is happening.
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Personally I'm all about LED. Burns cool, provides cleaner, brighter light, and uses a fraction of the energy. Downside? Cost of course. But with more people buying them, the cost IS coming down. Very slowly, but it is happening.
JC (and others) if you have money to invest in the market, buy shares in companies making LEDs. There is the future (plastics! ;)).
FQ13
PS Hazardous waste disposal companies don't suck either. ;D
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Bill, if you want to see how much your bulbs are using I have just what you need......................
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2 years ago I went through our entire house and replaced every incandescent bulb I could find with CFL's. Including all of my outside lighting around my pool.
I just went through the house and dumped every CFL. I now get the real light I want when I throw the switch - not 2 minutes later.
I haven't looked into the LEDs yet. That may be next.
My neighbor has been checking their APS bills since they bought a new ac unit. They are seeing about $60 a month savings over the previous year. I bet you're using less juice to get more (cooler) with the new unit, APS is just raping us harder.
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JC (and others) if you have money to invest in the market, buy shares in companies making LEDs. There is the future (plastics! ;)).
FQ13
PS Hazardous waste disposal companies don't suck either. ;D
First off, that's a big if. Secondly, have you seen the market the last week. I just spent last week in a panic pulling everything out! Just because congress made another crappy 11th hour deal doesn't mean the markets will magically rebound. In fact the harsh reality is that they didn't fix ANYTHING. All they really did was put us farther in the hole. Not to mention the clown that has the credit card. Just remember, the market reacts to reality, not the funny accounting of the CBO.
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JC, the ups and downs that make the news are the average of everything, (you probably already know this but I have to post the thought )
with the right investments you can make money no matter what the average does.
Look back to the Great Depression, stuff like food will be the last thing to fall, energy stocks, things people have got to have.
Emerging technologies bought now cheap will pay off in the future, strong, established firms like Coke, or Microsoft.
Yes, their share price may drop to where they are actually affordable, but not as much as the market as a whole, and they will be among the first to recover.
There is also currency speculation.
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JC, the ups and downs that make the news are the average of everything, (you probably already know this but I have to post the thought )
with the right investments you can make money no matter what the average does.
Look back to the Great Depression, stuff like food will be the last thing to fall, energy stocks, things people have got to have.
Emerging technologies bought now cheap will pay off in the future, strong, established firms like Coke, or Microsoft.
Yes, their share price may drop to where they are actually affordable, but not as much as the market as a whole, and they will be among the first to recover.
There is also currency speculation.
While you are absolutely right....I have been making a killing betting against the market. ;D
You have to consider that most of our retirement accounts are invested in such a broad spectrum, that major fluctuations in the market are a pretty good indicator of how those accounts are doing. Sure you might have 1-2 funds that don't follow the trend, but most do. So when you see the hurricane coming, you seek shelter until the storm is over. Then you go out and profiteer from the rebuilding.
Call me overly cautious, but I believe that the debt deal isn't going to make a lick of difference to the credit rating companies. And if they do down grade our credit rating, it's going to make the '29 crash look like a clerical error. I would be surprised if the market didn't lose 5000 points in a week after that happening. Granted, like you said, if you know how to play the game, you could put in a few thousand in the right place and walk away a millionaire. ;)
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LED's are the big up and coming thing in regards to lighting. They are just way too expensive at the moment. In another few years the price will drop. We're seeing them in stoplights, and in tail lights and turn signals on new cars. For now I've got no problem with the CFL's. I just don't think they provide that much savings for the average home owner. I'm not calling in the black helicopters if I break one either. Bill T.
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Bill, you would have been better served to invest the money you spent on all that new stuff. Remember, the Fed is the one pushing all this "energy efficient" crap and they (the Feds) are anything but efficient!
I'm stocking up on incandescent bulbs before they're outlawed. I rent and my electric bill is pushing 250 a month these days for about 1000 sq ft.
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I rent and my electric bill is pushing 250 a month these days for about 1000 sq ft.
Maybe I shouldn't bitch too loud. That was mine last month for 1,680 Sq. Ft. That includes running my pool filter 5 hours a day. Yeah, that's supposed to be "Energy Efficient" as well. Bill T.
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And, I'll be dropping about 1800-1900 bucks over the winter for heating oil too.....
Years ago, I swapped a 48 year old boiler for a new one for about 3 large. I made that 3K back in about five years on the fuel savings. You'll never get that investment back with electrical appliances because they're drawing power 24/7 unless you unplug the damn things. Everything runs on a circuit board now.
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HOLY CRAP!!! You guys aren't even serious. We have a heat pump / ac unit. Known to be the most inefficient creation ever in all of mankind. During the 6 extreme temperature months of the year our power bill is $90-120, and the other 6 months of the year its $60-90. Only once have we gone over $110 in the last two years. And that's with an electric cloths dryer and water heater (no gas at all). Been keeping the house at 73 degrees since winter. I forget where we set it in the winter.
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But I'm paying 20 cents per kwh to your 10 cents...Az is pretty low too...
We here in the Northeast are getting boned pretty regularly and I have Millstone, Plymouth and Seabrook Nuclear Power Stations within 100 miles of my house.
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During the 6 extreme temperature months of the year our power bill is $90-120.
What do you mean by "extreme temperature"? Here it's 113 to 118 in the Summer. Bill T.
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But I'm paying 20 cents per kwh to your 10 cents...Az is pretty low too...
We here in the Northeast are getting boned pretty regularly and I have Millstone, Plymouth and Seabrook Nuclear Power Stations within 100 miles of my house.
Try California if you want really cheap energy rates! ................not.
We have tier pricing, our last bill we hit the $0.40352/kwh rate
Funny thing is we are using less with our new "Smart" meter. We heard horror stories about them but we are happy with ours.
At our house in AZ it's $0.075/kwh
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What do you mean by "extreme temperature"? Here it's 113 to 118 in the Summer. Bill T.
OK, I bow to the hellishness of Arizona! ;D ;) Extreme temperatures here are (this years been worse for us all) 90-100 hot days, and 40-30 on the low side... I hadn't taken into consideration your a/c unit is attempting to change the atmosphere of Mars. ;D
Don't you guys get earthquakes there as well? WTF? You beat yourself with a whip for laughs to? ;) Plenty of beach houses here you know!
Not sure what our KW per hour rate is. Have to check next time the bill rolls around.
They make up for it all by charging us 9-11% sales tax (even on food). :(
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You know I do energy audits for a living right? ;D
Most of the green stuff is crap, CFLs and solar are number 1 and 2( you pick which is which) for being "green"
If your price per kwh did not change, did they install a digital meter( some times called smart meters)? If so they track WHen you use power and charge accordingly. peak time power use= more per kwh.
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If your price per kwh did not change, did they install a digital meter( some times called smart meters)? If so they track WHen you use power and charge accordingly. peak time power use= more per kwh.
I went on that "plan" several years back. It is based on "On Peak" and "Off Peak" usage. For us it works out pretty well because there is just the two of us and we can adapt. For example in the Summer months the "On Peak" hours start in the early afternoon when cooling demand is at it's highest. During the Winter peak hours are in the early morning due to heating demands. So I adjust the time I run my pool filter, and Melanie adjusts her clothes and dish washing to conform. It's easy to do and it does save a few bucks.
Instead of a meter with all of those gears and wheels, you get one with a LCD readout that makes no sense what so ever. The only thing I change twice a year is the timer on my pool pump. Of course your heating and cooling you cannot adjust, but everything else can be. Bill T.
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Have you though about a evap cooler? If used correctly they can save you alot on your cooling. One of the few "old" green ideas that actually makes alot of sense power wise atleast.
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Have you though about a evap cooler? If used correctly they can save you alot on your cooling. One of the few "old" green ideas that actually makes alot of sense power wise atleast.
Swamp cooler? It is an old idea but not an old green idea. The old part is there wasn't A/C and in the last few decades it was an alternative as to being less expensive than A/C...when you have the water. They are all over the Farmington, Aztec Durango area where I used to work and it didn't start out being a green idea. A misspeak on your part I'm sure, but it shows how propaganda can creep into one's thinking.
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Have you though about a evap cooler? If used correctly they can save you alot on your cooling. One of the few "old" green ideas that actually makes alot of sense power wise atleast.
We had a 2 Stage Mastercool with upduct discharge in our house in Lake Havasu City. It works well, and with the upducts it allowed you to run the system with the windows closed, and discharge the air through the attic which really kept the attic temperatures down.
The problem in Phoenix is the dew point is much higher during the Monsoon season, which greatly cuts down on the days you can run it. If you have a dew point over 40 degrees, it can really muck up your house, and worse rust your guns! Evaporative coolers are the greatest destroyer of firearms in the state of Arizona. People run them when the dew point is too high trying to save money, and the indoor relative humidity can climb way too high, causing guns to easily rust, walls to sweat, and mold to form.
The other issue with them is constant service and leaking. All that controls the water input on even the most expensive units is a cheap little float switch, (valve), that can calcify and leak quickly. The pads require replacement every year, sometimes twice a year. In the Winter if it gets really cold, the water line on the roof can freeze and break causing even more problems. New home builders don't even offer them anymore. About the only place I could see one would be in the garage. In the Summer if you park 2 hot cars in a 2 car garage the temp can easily hit 130 inside your garage. An evap cooler would help get rid of that heat, and you could discharge it into your attic which would make your A/C run less. But I don't think I would install another one in my home unless energy cost went completely off the chart. Bill T.
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That may be true in North Dakota Path, but its not in Arizona and Florida. People flock here every day, and to keep up with the ever increasing demand, power companies have to build new plants (which is a regulatory nightmare) and buy power from over the grid. Both are costly. Here, they actually save money when folks use less. In your neck of the woods, with a stable or shrinking population, I'd expect them to be flogging 1,000 watt floodlights for your yard and encouraging you to set your thermostats at 80 degrees in winter and 70 degrees in the summer to bring in more cash. ;)
FQ13
OK, so we've established that you can't spell worth a damn, you're a faux libertarian, and now that you are geographically ignorant too! ;D
ND's population is growing. OK, it is small - I used to giggle over the fact that FL had 3 times more people on Medicaid alone (1.8 million) than we have people in the entire state (620k at the time) - but we are also one of 2, maybe 3 states with a budget surplus, and our unemployment is 3%. People are flocking here in droves. So, yeah, we have less than 700,00 people, but so what? Our power gets sold on the open market, so like others have said, we have to buy back from the freakin' world what we produce.