The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Buzzcut on September 22, 2011, 05:27:35 PM
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In the early to mid-80s Solider of Fortune or another mag of that type ran an article about what the staff thought was the best survival combo. Their choice at the time was purely defensive they choose an Uzi carbine and 9mm pistol. The only criteria the used was the long gun pistol combo had to be the same caliber and they did take into account weight that is why they didn’t choose a Thompson and a 45 due to the weight of the Thompson. I have always felt they didn’t take into consideration the ability to get game with their choice large than small game. Having thought about this for a while I think a 44 mag rifle and pistol would be the best balance between defense and game. I know that the 357 would be better hand gun for defense than the 44 due to recoil but not as good as the 44 for game. What combo given the about criteria would you guys choose.
P.S. This possible could make an interesting segment for a future episode of Best Defense Survival.
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Back in the 30's when the .357 magnum was being introduced it was used to take at least one of every game animal in North America.
While it and the .44 mag can both use lower powered cartridges, ( .44 spl and .38spl ) the .38 seems somewhat more useful for taking the more abundant game animals such as rabbit and squirrel, where the .44spl would destroy more meat.
Other considerations are size and weight of ammo, (if you are living out of a pack you can carry more .357/38 for the same weight) and the sheer weight and size of the pistol that you will be carrying at all times. Open carry or CCW the .44 comes in a distant second in this regard.
.357 gets my vote, however another combo to consider is the .45 Colt. While the double action versions may be, like the .44 magnum, more fitted to people with larger hands, the single action models a quite handy,the round can be loaded to pressures ranging from Black powder "Cowboy action" loads up to "oh my god " Ruger only levels, and there are several makers of Winchester clones who produce rifles in the caliber. Something that made me suggest this is the fact that the Puma model for one, comes chambered in .454 Casull .
This would give you a rifle that can shoot any thing from mild black powder loads up to loads suitable for moose, Grizzly and Bison.
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I think you're on the right track, but personally I'd want to go .45 Colt with modern loads. It should be sufficient for both aspects.
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Back in the 30's when the .357 magnum was being introduced it was used to take at least one of every game animal in North America.
While it and the .44 mag can both use lower powered cartridges, ( .44 spl and .38spl ) the .38 seems somewhat more useful for taking the more abundant game animals such as rabbit and squirrel, where the .44spl would destroy more meat.
Other considerations are size and weight of ammo, (if you are living out of a pack you can carry more .357/38 for the same weight) and the sheer weight and size of the pistol that you will be carrying at all times. Open carry or CCW the .44 comes in a distant second in this regard.
.357 gets my vote, however another combo to consider is the .45 Colt. While the double action versions may be, like the .44 magnum, more fitted to people with larger hands, the single action models a quite handy,the round can be loaded to pressures ranging from Black powder "Cowboy action" loads up to "oh my god " Ruger only levels, and there are several makers of Winchester clones who produce rifles in the caliber. Something that made me suggest this is the fact that the Puma model for one, comes chambered in .454 Casull .
This would give you a rifle that can shoot any thing from mild black powder loads up to loads suitable for moose, Grizzly and Bison.
+!10000000
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I'd say 357 lever gun and 357 wheel gun.
A 22 comes in a very close second.( plus I don't have a 357 lever gun... been on the list for years, just never found the one I want at the price I want to pay)
While yes it lacks the power of other rounds, it still is very deadly and you can carry a bunch of ammo.
If the SHTF, chances are it will be short term( weeks to months, not forever) So only having a couple of hundred rounds should be more then enough.
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As a .45 Colt fan, a lever action carbine, with 255gr. Hornady Levevolution rds.... and a good ol fashioned .45 Colt revolver. (like my Uberti) would be a valid consideration.
However, as posted, the .357 is a proven rd. and ballistics only improve in a carbine length barrel. I certainly would not feel vulnerable if all I had was my Ruger Blackhawk and a Rossi and/or Puma .357 carbine.
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My choice is a Marlin 1894 45 Colt and a Ruger Vaquero and Buffalo Bore ammo.
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I'd also vote for a .357 combo. Power of the .357 and the ability to shoot .38 too.
Although underpowered for big game and self defense, a still affective survival combo would be .22. You can carry a lot more ammo and it's probably the best for small game hunting. I've also heard of more than one deer being killed by them. It's not best, but, in true survival, any kill is better than a quick kill.
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I'd also vote for a .357 combo. Power of the .357 and the ability to shoot .38 too.
Although underpowered for big game and self defense, a still affective survival combo would be .22. You can carry a lot more ammo and it's probably the best for small game hunting. I've also heard of more than one deer being killed by them. It's not best, but, in true survival, any kill is better than a quick kill.
Something I glossed over in my first post, in a true survival situation everyone with a gun or bow will be out hunting . The larger game, being reasonably intelligent, will head for the hills and swamps, what you are most likely going to be shooting are Squirrels, Rabbits, Cats,and dogs. The stuff you normally see. All of which is well with in the capabilities of the .22LR.
The one place it falls short is for fighting.
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The one place it falls short is for fighting.
Some older Latino "former rebel" transplants, here in the S. Florida area, would disagree...One can carry mucho ammo, with the good 30rd. mags, and a quick trigger, I guarantee it makes an effective suppressive fire weapon.
Targeting tires, radios, even coffee mugs, headlights, equip. whatever, in rapid succession, peppering those "leetle" rds, can keep many a foes head down. Without expending
There methodology was if your shot with a .22, it will take another guy to tend to you, or drag you out of the area, maybe two.
That's one or two less fighting folk to engage you. While saving the bigger ammo.
If your shot in the torso with one or two .22's albeit your survival chances are fair to midland, but your not shooting at me anymore, and need med care pretty quick.
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Asked before and the answer hasn't changed.
A lever gun in .357/.38 with a 3 or 4" revolver as a sidearm and I'm good.
You can also buy shot shells in that caliber for small game. A couple of boxes of shells and a several hundred rounds of cartridges would be easy to manage.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=757831
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While I have .44mag lever AND wheel guns (in a safe in AZ), the pair I have with me in Florida (for the SHTF scenario mentioned earlier) are the same configurations in .357mag. Both are in stainless, both made by Rossi, and both shoot well.
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The one place it falls short is for fighting.
Some older Latino "former rebel" transplants, here in the S. Florida area, would disagree...One can carry mucho ammo, with the good 30rd. mags, and a quick trigger, I guarantee it makes an effective suppressive fire weapon.
Targeting tires, radios, even coffee mugs, headlights, equip. whatever, in rapid succession, peppering those "leetle" rds, can keep many a foes head down. Without expending
There methodology was if your shot with a .22, it will take another guy to tend to you, or drag you out of the area, maybe two.
That's one or two less fighting folk to engage you. While saving the bigger ammo.
If your shot in the torso with one or two .22's albeit your survival chances are fair to midland, but your not shooting at me anymore, and need med care pretty quick.
Poor reasoning is why they are here and not back home.
If their thinking had actual basis in fact their side would have won. ;D
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Poor reasoning is why they are here and not back home.
If their thinking had actual basis in fact their side would have won. Grin
Hard to disagree, as there is no official record, but I'll give a thumbs up to the harassment factor, and making you check twice before turkey necking.
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The .22 debate. Let someone shoot you in the face with one and then tell him that it is not enough gun. I do not want to be shot with anything except whiskey.
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The .22 debate. Let someone shoot you in the face with one and then tell him that it is not enough gun. I do not want to be shot with anything except whiskey.
That isn't a valid argument in this context.
The original comment was that they fail in a fighting situation.
That means that multiple assailants are determined to overpower and/or kill you.
This is considerably different than a couple of punks robbing a target of opportunity.
The punks probably will break off when they realize it isn't just easy money, fear, and pain will often be enough to defeat them.
Determined attackers who want what you have, (Food, shelter etc. ) need to be stopped, not deterred.
They have already accepted the fact that you are going to resist, fear is not going to matter, mere pain will not stop them, they must receive injuries that either kill them outright or cripple them to the point that they are unable to function.
The .22 lr will not do that, that's why the Army goes with the far more expensive 5.56mm.
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Context is important. Historically, it has been used as a combat weapon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Long_Rifle
The Israeli military used a suppressed .22 LR rifle in the 1990s for riot control and to "eliminate disturbing dogs prior to operations", though it is now used less often as it has been shown to be more lethal than previously suspected.[12] Some other examples include the use of suppressed High Standard HDM pistols by the American OSS, which was the predecessor organization of the CIA.[9] Francis Gary Powers was issued a suppressed High Standard for the flight in which he was shot down. Suppressed Ruger MK II pistols are in current use by the US Navy SEALs.
Wermacht Troops also used PPK/L pistols as well during WWII.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/usa/hi-standard-hdm-silenced-e.html
During the World War 2 American government established an Office of Strategic Services (OSS), an intellegence and special operations agency. Among other things, the OSS sent undercover agents to occupied and enemy countries and supplied friendly resistance forces with equipment and weapons. Many clandestine operations, planned and performed by OSS, required silenced weapons, and a request has been sent to develop such a weapon. During 1943, a group of engineers at Bell Telephone Labs designed several silenced semiautomatic pistols, based on various small-bore target pistols made by Colt and High Standard. By late 1943, OSS choose the modified .22 caliber Hi-Standard HD pistol, fitted with integral silencer, and issued a contract for production of this weapon to High Standard Manufacturing corporation. During 1944, High Standard produced several thousands of these pistols, officially designated as "model HDM", but better known simply as "OSS pistols". After the war, Hi-Standard HDM pistols were used by CIA and military special operations personnel during Korean and Vietnam wars, as well as in a number of Cold War operations. It is also possible that few Hi-Standard HDM pistols survived long enough to be used during the Gulf War of 1991. However, probably the most famous user of the Hi-Standard HDM pistol was probably the Francis Gary Powers, an CIA pilot who was shot down in 1960 over the Soviet Union, when conduction spy flight on U2 airplane.
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Two things,
1) a .22lr pistol/rifle is always a good addition to a survival combo package.
2) Rifles would work in combination with additional resistance members of your team as a suppressive fire weapon, allowing larger caliber rds. to be conserved.
The thing about being in a total survival situation is that everyone is playing under the same medical rules. A small wound today is tomorrow's gangrene and tetanus.
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.357 all around. But I do like the .22.
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Forget all these sissy wheel and lever guns.
I'll wait for them to make an UZI in .357 and pair it with a Desert Eagle.....then I just need to get it approved for carry on my Night Security job at the Mall. ;D ;D ;D
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.357 all around. But I do like the .22.
Wonder if a barrel insert and a replacement cylinder in .22 for a wheel gun is feasible?
Doubt there would be much you can do with the lever gun....just have to find room to pack an AR-7
BTW, Ruger .45 Colts come with a .45 ACP cylinder...at least they used to.
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Wonder if a barrel insert and a replacement cylinder in .22 for a wheel gun is feasible?
Doubt there would be much you can do with the lever gun....just have to find room to pack an AR-7
BTW, Ruger .45 Colts come with a .45 ACP cylinder...at least they used to.
nope can't be done. Max wall thickness would be in the .065 range.
The 45 acp 45 colt deal was also a joke, two diffrent bores. the 45 acp would not be accurate for shit.
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nope can't be done. Max wall thickness would be in the .065 range.
The 45 acp 45 colt deal was also a joke, two diffrent bores. the 45 acp would not be accurate for shit.
Tab, most modern manufacturers have standardized the .45 bore to .451 so accuracy wouldn't be an issue.
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Context is important. Historically, it has been used as a combat weapon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Long_Rifle
The Israeli military used a suppressed .22 LR rifle in the 1990s for riot control and to "eliminate disturbing dogs prior to operations", though it is now used less often as it has been shown to be more lethal than previously suspected.[12] Some other examples include the use of suppressed High Standard HDM pistols by the American OSS, which was the predecessor organization of the CIA.[9] Francis Gary Powers was issued a suppressed High Standard for the flight in which he was shot down. Suppressed Ruger MK II pistols are in current use by the US Navy SEALs.
Wermacht Troops also used PPK/L pistols as well during WWII.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/usa/hi-standard-hdm-silenced-e.html
During the World War 2 American government established an Office of Strategic Services (OSS), an intellegence and special operations agency. Among other things, the OSS sent undercover agents to occupied and enemy countries and supplied friendly resistance forces with equipment and weapons. Many clandestine operations, planned and performed by OSS, required silenced weapons, and a request has been sent to develop such a weapon. During 1943, a group of engineers at Bell Telephone Labs designed several silenced semiautomatic pistols, based on various small-bore target pistols made by Colt and High Standard. By late 1943, OSS choose the modified .22 caliber Hi-Standard HD pistol, fitted with integral silencer, and issued a contract for production of this weapon to High Standard Manufacturing corporation. During 1944, High Standard produced several thousands of these pistols, officially designated as "model HDM", but better known simply as "OSS pistols". After the war, Hi-Standard HDM pistols were used by CIA and military special operations personnel during Korean and Vietnam wars, as well as in a number of Cold War operations. It is also possible that few Hi-Standard HDM pistols survived long enough to be used during the Gulf War of 1991. However, probably the most famous user of the Hi-Standard HDM pistol was probably the Francis Gary Powers, an CIA pilot who was shot down in 1960 over the Soviet Union, when conduction spy flight on U2 airplane.
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Two things,
1) a .22lr pistol/rifle is always a good addition to a survival combo package.
2) Rifles would work in combination with additional resistance members of your team as a suppressive fire weapon, allowing larger caliber rds. to be conserved.
The thing about being in a total survival situation is that everyone is playing under the same medical rules. A small wound today is tomorrow's gangrene and tetanus.
Again, not a valid argument, assassination is not "fighting".
The medical comment may be valid but does you no good at all if a couple of the BG's die of infection a few days after the kill you, or bleed out 20 minutes after beating you to death.
nope can't be done. Max wall thickness would be in the .065 range.
The 45 acp 45 colt deal was also a joke, two diffrent bores. the 45 acp would not be accurate for shit.
I'm not positive what you are talking about, but I suspect you got his post bassakwards.
I believe there is a manufacturer who does make .22 call chamber inserts , in order to fit in a .357 chamber it would have a wall thickness of about .145.
Personally, I would go with .357 combo and the AR 7, It would not take up that much extra room, as has been mentioned the ammo also is compact, and the one I shot , back when Armalite was making them, was surprisingly accurate.
I can not comment about the quality of the later Charter Arms, or current Henry versions.
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I think a Glock in 10mm with a AR in 10mm would be a nice modern combo. 45 ACP would be my first choice for a handgun but the 10mm Double tap loads in a carbine would pack some serious punch.
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I think a Glock in 10mm with a AR in 10mm would be a nice modern combo. 45 ACP would be my first choice for a handgun but the 10mm Double tap loads in a carbine would pack some serious punch.
What does that use for Magazines ?
I know some of the .45ACP models use Thompson mags, can you use those for 10MM or are there "proprietary" mags you need to buy ?
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What does that use for Magazines ?
I know some of the .45ACP models use Thompson mags, can you use those for 10MM or are there "proprietary" mags you need to buy ?
I think they are UZI 45 mags converted to 10mm, I saw some reference to Sten magazines too. I would think someone would look into Glock mags that would make it a slam dunk combo. Just make sure you have your "carbine only" loads marked so you dont blow up your Glock.
I dont own either one, if I had to come up with something in short order I'd just get a HK MP5 clone in 45acp and use my XDM.
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Again, not a valid argument, assassination is not "fighting".
The medical comment may be valid but does you no good at all if a couple of the BG's die of infection a few days after the kill you, or bleed out 20 minutes after beating you to death.
I'm not positive what you are talking about, but I suspect you got his post bassakwards.
I believe there is a manufacturer who does make .22 call chamber inserts , in order to fit in a .357 chamber it would have a wall thickness of about .145.
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I thought you were a machinist? you need to divide it by 2. .357"-.222"=.135" divide that by 2. that would be the tickness on the lands, the groves would be even smaller. Atleast for the bore, then add in a clearance factor and a expantion factor.
even a cylinder would be a extremly tight fit, 22 lr is .226" 357 is .379 thats still only a wall thick ness about .075 If they were a press fit item it would be no big deal, but a drop in, no way.
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I see TAB beat me to it.
I got a PM from him catching me in a bonehead mistake
"you need to remember to divide by 2."
Damn, I HATE when that happens ;D
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I see TAB beat me to it.
I got a PM from him catching me in a bonehead mistake
"you need to remember to divide by 2."
Damn, I HATE when that happens ;D
there is a reason why I got my degree in math.
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there is a reason why I got my degree in math.
Cuz remedial reading and writing was all booked up!
;D ;D ;D ;D