The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: twyacht on December 29, 2011, 05:20:26 AM
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HEADSHOTS!!!!!
http://www.rrdailyherald.com/news/intruder-killed-despite-wearing-body-armor/article_83c410b8-2cad-11e1-95f8-0019bb2963f4.html
Intruder killed despite wearing body armor
Posted: Thursday, December 22, 2011 9:58 am | Updated: 10:18 am, Thu Dec 22, 2011.
LITTLETON — An intruder in a four-person armed invasion was killed Wednesday night despite wearing body armor, authorities said.
Lt. Bobby Martin, with the Halifax County Sheriff’s Office, said 20-year-old Ricardo Keith Harley, 20, was killed following an exchange of gunfire at a home in the Short Street area Wednesday. The sheriff’s office is looking for two suspects today as authorities continue their investigation. Martin said deputies are still trying to identify those involved and provide the public with detailed descriptions.
According to Martin, the sheriff’s office responded to a home invasion at 8:17 p.m.
While en route to this location, officers were made aware shots had been fired and one suspect was still in the house.
“Deputy Corey Griffin arrived ... and discovered that one suspect had been shot and was not responding and another was being detained by the home owner, also two other suspects had fled on foot,” Martin said,
Kayman Northington was taken into custody at the home of the victim upon Griffin’s arrival, Martin said, adding one suspect found shot at the scene was later pronounced dead.
Northington is charged with first degree burglary, conspiracy to commit robbery with a dangerous weapon and carrying a concealed weapon. He is being held in the Halifax County Detention Center under a $200,000 bond. His court date is Feb. 1.
Martin said there were four to five people in the house when the home invasion began.
“There were four intruders, three actually made it into the house and one stayed outside,” Martin said. “The gentleman who we took into custody, Kayman Northington, was the first one into the house. After, two more forced their way in behind him.”
Martin said once inside, shots were fired. The home owner had a gun pulled on him.
“From what we are gathering from the witnesses, everybody started scattering and running,” Martin said. “According to witnesses, the bad guys came in and fired a shot. The home owner grabs his gun and fires a shot at one of the bad guys.”
The home’s occupants were able to stop Northington, but the other intruders got away, Martin said.
“The gentleman that did get shot and was killed was wearing body armor,” Martin said. “That is a trend we are starting to see. The bad guys go in to do a robbery or home invasion and they have their body armor on.
“We ask anyone with information about this case to contact the Halifax County Sheriff’s Office at 252-583-8051 or Halifax County Crimestoppers at 252-583-4444,” Martin said.
According to Martin, the robbery was drug related.
He said homeowners have a right to protect their home, and the homeowner in this shooting will not be charged.
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The BG's are getting bolder and despite surging (legal) gun sales, the scumbag criminals, intent on invading homes are stepping up to body armor.
My humble opinion: 12g 00Buck, the 9pellet variety, more projectiles stand a better chance of a headshot or throat hit, than a single bullet. Followed by a 12g slug. Even a center mass shot, from a slug against body armor will crack ribs, or at least hit em' like a train. Followed by another 00Buck. etc,.. And keep firing and moving to another preferably high capacity pistol that begins with "4".
and of course, practice, train, practice, train, learn, practice, train,..Be prepared...
Thoughts?
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First thought was that the home owner did a superb job.
Killed one invader who was wearing body armor. Might have been a lucky shot, but by being prepared enough to have his firearm handy, he made his own luck.
And he had the presence of mind to capture a second when he felt the threat was resolved.
Sent two of them running too.
Managed to get a call to the police, perhaps before the shooting started, but he got one made anyway.
Doesn't mention what weapon he used, but it was the right one.....the one he had close.
Does have me thinking about how to carry a Saiga 12 comfortably all day and inconspicuously while getting the morning paper in pajamas.
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Initial thoughts:
- The victims definitely were not selected at random.
- Could that mean drugs or gang activity? Could be rich folks as well (but less likely).
- Four guys in body armor? That takes some investment capital and planning.
- Good for the Halifax County Sheriff. Sticking up for a home owner's rights even if something was fishy.
- Follow up shots are important.
Yo, Homie!
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from another source I read it was drug related.
HEY! WHO KNEW!?
don't deal drugs and you won't have to worry about armored up thugs kicking in your door.
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Yo, Homie!
I wonder if L Ron Hubbard taught him that move!
;)
don't deal drugs and you won't have to worry about armored up thugs kicking in your door.
Somebody has to deal drugs, why not drug dealers?
Whom would we be having a failed war with if not the drug dealers? ;)
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this thread is going in three different directions:
1. aim for the head in a home invasion scenario because bad guys are wearing body armor now
2. tom cruise's shooting ability
3. the futility of the drug war
well, I will just let this post of mine here cover #2.
That scene is from the movie Collateral, as you probably know it was a Michael Mann directed film. Remember the street shootout scene in the movie Heat, I think that was a Michael Mann directed flick too.
As far as who taught Tom Cruise those moves, it was a Brit, who I think was former SAS and a body guard to the Royals....or at least I get that impression from his website.
The trainer/firearms consultant was Mick Gould:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8-P8sJNHk0
http://www.mickgould.com/
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This is the reason that most of the things we read or watch that help us learn say not to get locked into a set number of shots. Watch Pincus when he is at USSA or Ed Head when he is instructing, and the message will be to mix up the number of shots you take on a target. The idea is to stop the threat, and not to think "two to the body and one to the head."
There is a belief that in a self defense mode we should not fire more than one or two shots per bad guy. However, we need to be prepared to stop the threat. In my world that means shoot until they are on the ground. Once they are down it is time to assess and act accordingly.
Body armor is another reason that I am glad a .45 acp is in my ability to carry and use. The old joke has been "While you are wondering if or how much your 9mm will expand I know my .45 will never get any smaller." I also know that there is more energy expended on target with a .45 acp than smaller rounds. Just as MS showed us last night on using your hand to knock the guy back, a .45 acp to the armored chest will stun until something stops.
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Micheal Mann has a reputation for being anal about getting "gun stuff" correct going so far as using actual competitive shooters like Jim Zubiena.
Slow Mo
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Well, since we have a nice drift going here....
Does anyone know if Tom Cruise is pro 2A?
Seems someone who gets trained to handle firearms like he did might become an enthusiast?
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Well, since we have a nice drift going here....
Does anyone know if Tom Cruise is pro 2A?
Seems someone who gets trained to handle firearms like he did might become an enthusiast?
Scientology does believe in the inalienable right to self defense. Other than that, it's anyones guess with the Hollyweird types!
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I'm not sure but I believe Cruise is an anti.
Of interest, the adviser for the "Heat" shoot out, Andy McNab, will be best known to forum members for the book "Bravo Two - Zero" an account of his experience as an Iraqi POW in the 1st Gulf war.
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The Op does make you wonder about switching the Ar for the shotgun as the bedside weapon. It will go right through an average bullet proof vest. Of course it will also go through walls, neighbor's walls and neighbors. :-\ Personally, since I don't have anything in my house, guns excluded, worth the price of 4 vests, I'm not worried. But if I were in cash business, not just drug dealing, but anything where I would routinely have large amounts of cash or jewellery and people would know it, I might upgrade the arsenal a bit. Locally, a very popular waiter at a high end restaurant got shot dead outside his house because people new he'd have north of $500 on him at the end of the shift. Hit him Sunday night before he could go to the bank and you could score $2k easy, that's enough for these guys.
FQ13
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The Op does make you wonder about switching the Ar for the shotgun as the bedside weapon. It will go right through an average bullet proof vest. Of course it will also go through walls, neighbor's walls and neighbors. :-\ Personally, since I don't have anything in my house, guns excluded, worth the price of 4 vests, I'm not worried. But if I were in cash business, not just drug dealing, but anything where I would routinely have large amounts of cash or jewellery and people would know it, I might upgrade the arsenal a bit. Locally, a very popular waiter at a high end restaurant got shot dead outside his house because people new he'd have north of $500 on him at the end of the shift. Hit him Sunday night before he could go to the bank and you could score $2k easy, that's enough for these guys.
FQ13
The additional info that drugs were involved does make it seem like they all would be wearing armor, but that is not mentioned in the story.
Even punks and pushers might have their Mall Ninjas among them. Any street punk might be saving some beans for a nice vest.
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all the more reason to cut your product with powdered baby formula....more money for vests.
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The Op does make you wonder about switching the Ar for the shotgun as the bedside weapon. It will go right through an average bullet proof vest. Of course it will also go through walls, neighbor's walls and neighbors.
FQ13
There used to be a video on Best Defense where Rob and crew tested how shotguns, handguns, and ARs did as far as wall penetration went. The AR stopped a lot sooner than most would expect. IIRC the only thing that stopped sooner was bird shot.
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FQ is wrong when he says shot guns blow through vests, shot lacks the velocity and slugs have to much surface area.
7.62 X 25 penetrates due to its high velocity, 5.7 combines that with a small, pointy bullet.
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This makes me feel better about the Remington 1100 that I use for 3 gun matches being next to the bed stoked up with 10 rounds of #6 birdshot (I don't want to shoot through walls and kill the kids). How would you like a face full of that at 20 feet? I would also venture to say that the .450 Marlin with the Buffalo Bore 500 grain Barnes Buster may not go through body armor, but I imagine it would break ribs/sternum and knock the wind out of somebody.
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on one of these COPS type shows, a bad guy shot a cop with a shotgun loaded with a slug. there was so much force there that, IIRC, it broke a rib or ribs and then that rib went on to puncture a lung.
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This makes me feel better about the Remington 1100 that I use for 3 gun matches being next to the bed stoked up with 10 rounds of #6 birdshot (I don't want to shoot through walls and kill the kids). How would you like a face full of that at 20 feet? I would also venture to say that the .450 Marlin with the Buffalo Bore 500 grain Barnes Buster may not go through body armor, but I imagine it would break ribs/sternum and knock the wind out of somebody.
I bet the person in the vest would wish it HAD gone through.
Probably would not hurt as much. ;D
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Some time back, I watch a show about the Kevlar fabric vest being easily penetrated by a good knife blade! Is that still the case?
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Some time back, I watch a show about the Kevlar fabric vest being easily penetrated by a good knife blade! Is that still the case?
Yes, or a broad head arrow, but it is a different dynamic as the edge actually cuts the fibers while a bullet is trying to break them.
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Most commercially available body armor will NOT stop most rifle rounds, and not even some handgun rounds. They're simply not designed to do so. Speaking from experience, getting hit in the vest with a .38 round will feel like a home run swing from a Major League ballplayer, and unless the BG is completely f....k brain-dead, should serve to make him reassess his career choice.
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Most commercially available body armor will NOT stop most rifle rounds, and not even some handgun rounds. They're simply not designed to do so. Speaking from experience, getting hit in the vest with a .38 round will feel like a home run swing from a Major League ballplayer, and unless the BG is completely f....k brain-dead, should serve to make him reassess his career choice.
Is that when you decided to consider other employment?
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Some time back, I watch a show about the Kevlar fabric vest being easily penetrated by a good knife blade! Is that still the case?
We were told by the County cops last year that even a screwdriver will penetrate a vest.
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Most armor manufacturers have armor designed for edged weapons. This is very common in the UK where they are the biggest threat faced by law enforcement. I have never seen a vest designed to resist both bullets and edged.
http://www.turtleskin.com/Body-Armor.aspx?Referrer=GoogleAdWords&kw=ballistic%20body%20armour&gclid=COTHwaioqK0CFWHatgodMUEkQg
Just a quick example with my weak google fu today.
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Is that when you decided to consider other employment?
That was part of it. Are you familiar with the phrase, "They ain't paying me enough for this shit!!"?
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That was part of it. Are you familiar with the phrase, "They ain't paying me enough for this shit!!"?
Kind of why I got out of the Navy but for me it was "They ain't paying me enough to put up with these idiots!"...
idiots = college boys and girls with basket weaving degrees...we had a lot of Reserve officer (ROTC) types...
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Judging by the "clay" mannequin and numerous "dents", I can't imagine a 12g slug or three, would keep a BG in the fight.
Let alone, a 15 rd. barrage, from a high capacity M&P .40, or G21 in .45....
But,.....the mannequin is also NOT shooting back....
P.S. never get tired of the Miami Vice quick draw, or "Yo Homey"...."clip".... 8)
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FQ is wrong when he says shot guns blow through vests, shot lacks the velocity and slugs have to much surface area.
7.62 X 25 penetrates due to its high velocity, 5.7 combines that with a small, pointy bullet.
Good thing I didn't say it. I was referring to ARs, not shotguns. 5.56 greentips against an average vest at close range and its through and through unless you're wearing a tac plate. Buckshot, not so much.
FQ13
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Good thing I didn't say it. I was referring to ARs, not shotguns. 5.56 greentips against an average vest at close range and its through and through unless you're wearing a tac plate. Buckshot, not so much.
FQ13
That's how I read it too....and we're so proud you finally put the decimal point in the right location on 5.56!
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We were told by the County cops last year that even a screwdriver will penetrate a vest.
anything that will seperate the weave will go thru the standard issue LE vests. kinfes, arrow and small pointy rounds like 17 HMR, and the 17 rem go right thru.
Just keep shooting until they stop.
now if they have ceramic turama plates and the like, you are going to need a full power rifle to get thru them.
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anything that will seperate the weave will go thru the standard issue LE vests. kinfes, arrow and small pointy rounds like 17 HMR, and the 17 rem go right thru.
Just keep shooting until they stop.
now if they have ceramic turama plates and the like, you are going to need a full power rifle to get thru them.
Or like I said - Shoot several times with a handgun, and stop the threat when they either fall down or are off balance
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That's how I read it too....and we're so proud you finally put the decimal point in the right location on 5.56!
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
;D
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Shoot for the crotch.
When bullets smash their pelvis there is no solid structure to support their body.
Down they will go.
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Shoot for the crotch.
When bullets smash their pelvis there is no solid structure to support their body.
Down they will go.
the better vest have protection for down there...
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Shoot for the crotch.
When bullets smash their pelvis there is no solid structure to support their body.
Down they will go.
I can attest to the factual nature of that statement! I've had four hip replacements...
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Shoot for the crotch.
When bullets smash their pelvis there is no solid structure to support their body.
Down they will go.
"Smite them hip and thigh, reverend, hip and thigh."
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don't forget knee and shin.
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the better vest have protection for down there...
Groin, legs, Head, armpits, the point to remember is that no matter how good the vest is, it is not some kind of magic cape.
There are still vulnerabilities.
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Groin, legs, Head, armpits, the point to remember is that no matter how good the vest is, it is not some kind of magic cape.
There are still vulnerabilities.
Yep.
There was a local area officer just this year that got hit in a spot not covered by the vest.....and one a couple of years ago died as a result of a hit not covered by the vest.
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Groin, legs, Head, armpits, the point to remember is that no matter how good the vest is, it is not some kind of magic cape.
There are still vulnerabilities.
Which brings us all the way back to the OP. Accuracy.
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>:( HEADSHOTS!! HEADSHOTS!!!
TIME TO REDO THE GIRLS SHOOTING REMINDERS!
HEADHSOTS!!! WITH THE SHOTGUNS!!! >:( ;D
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>:( HEADSHOTS!! HEADSHOTS!!!
TIME TO REDO THE GIRLS SHOOTING REMINDERS!
HEADHSOTS!!! WITH THE SHOTGUNS!!! >:( ;D
Although at cross the room distances with a shotgun hits on body armor will cease hostilities for all but the most determined criminals. If they insist on continuing after they catch their breath then rack another shell and let them have it.
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I've been told when using a mouse gun (.380 or less) going for a head shot is the best course.
I expect most encounters where I will be using my LCP, I probably wont have much time to take a head shot. If I do have time, I'll likely have time to present the G23 and then I'm not using a mouse gun any more...excepting the views of the .45ACP crowd ;D ;D
If I do have the time, I'll take that advice if I can, but I do expect my target to be at the end of my left arm....if I'm lucky.
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Remember that this is self defense. It is not kill or capture. Even with body armor a .22 lr is not comfortable. Any body shot is going to have an effect. Do what you need to do to stop the threat. If that means that you eventually need to go to kill shots you have to go for kill shots. However, planning and practicing kill shots shows an intent to kill over self defense.
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Remember that this is self defense. It is not kill or capture. Even with body armor a .22 lr is not comfortable. Any body shot is going to have an effect. Do what you need to do to stop the threat. If that means that you eventually need to go to kill shots you have to go for kill shots. However, planning and practicing kill shots shows an intent to kill over self defense.
Well, that is an iffy one.
For instance, if you are using a shotgun in a hostage situation where the hostage is being held by the bad guy with the bad guy looking over the hostage's shoulder, your point of aim should be the outside ear of the bad guy. This will give a head shot and spare the hostage.
Now, that is a kill shot pretty much for sure....but I'd like to have a practice go or two before I needed to try it out first time live.
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Remember that this is self defense. It is not kill or capture. Even with body armor a .22 lr is not comfortable. Any body shot is going to have an effect. Do what you need to do to stop the threat. If that means that you eventually need to go to kill shots you have to go for kill shots. However, planning and practicing kill shots shows an intent to kill over self defense.
That's one I'd be willing to argue in front of jury. I'd summon the firearms instructor of the local police academy and ask where he instructs his students to shoot. That should end the conversation.
FQ13
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Remember that this is self defense. It is not kill or capture. Even with body armor a .22 lr is not comfortable. Any body shot is going to have an effect. Do what you need to do to stop the threat. If that means that you eventually need to go to kill shots you have to go for kill shots. However, planning and practicing kill shots shows an intent to kill over self defense.
That's ridiculous and flies in the face of what every other creditable instructor teaches, which is, if Center mass isn't getting it done go for the head.
It's that "Failure drill MB harps on in his pod casts when discussing mouse guns.
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Shoot for the crotch.
When bullets smash their pelvis there is no solid structure to support their body.
Down they will go.
A friend I work with who did time kicking doors in the sandbox told me to shoot for the hair down there. So center of mass headed down to stop the threat may be a good plan for a given circumstance.
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That's ridiculous and flies in the face of what every other creditable instructor teaches, which is, if Center mass isn't getting it done go for the head.
It's that "Failure drill MB harps on in his pod casts when discussing mouse guns.
Tom,
It does not fly in the face of "what every other credible instructor teaches." Stop the threat is what credible instructors teach. In a survival/self defense situation how do you and your attorney explain time taken to go for head shots? Stopping the threat is taking the quick and dependable body shots and only going further if you need to ... oh wait ... that is exactly what you said in your center mass and then head.
What I am saying is that this is not about killing! This is about stopping the threat!
If you want to continue arguing this I might want to remind you that if you are involved in a shooting and brought up on charges everything you type on here about kill, kill, kill will be found and used by a good prosecutor or the bad guy's attorney going after your left nut.
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There have been occasions when persons shot in the chest with a shotgun slug have not been incapacitated until they died from blood loss.
One shot to a "lethal zone", which happen to be the 2 largest separate portions of the body, does 3 things.
1- it is most likely to end the threat in the fastest time possible there by keeping you safe.
2 - It will require the fewest shots to disable your attacker there by giving him the best chance of survival.
3 - by limiting the number of shots and putting those into the largest masses of the target it lessens the chances of misses that endanger others physically and endanger you legally.
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Tom,
I think you and I are arguing the exact same course of action with only one difference:
You are trying to kill, and I am trying to stop the threat.
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If you pick up a gun for protection when armed, ARMORED intruders enter your home you damn well better be aiming to kill or you and your family will die, after the women have been repeatedly raped.
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Tom, I think your argument with M58 here is a lot like your argument with me on the signing statement thread. A distintion without a difference. Here, its about shooting to STOP. If the assailent is wearing armor, or you think they might be, two in the head will stop them just fine. You weren't aiming to kill them, you just wanted them to stop attacking you. And no cop in the world would say under oath that they'd have done differently. Its not a kill shot, its a stopping shot, for very large values of stop. ;)
FQ13
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There might be a difference.
If you find the need to make a head shot to stop a threat, for whatever reason, you best be aware ahead of time that you are, in all likely hood making a kill shot.
I, myself, want to be aware of that long before I have to make that shot and resolve any "issues" I have making a kill shot when necessary.
No one needs to any self doubts as they prepare for that shot. No "OMG I'm about to kill someone" should occur. Not that it will be any easier on you, just that it will be quicker and surer.
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I also intend to stop the threat.
But before I ever applied for a carry permit I faced the fact that any effective shot I took would be life threatening or fatal to the creature I hit.
If you are not willing to face that fact then you should not carry a fire arm for SD
This is not a "combat situation" where a wounded foe also removes the guy taking him to an aid station.
This is a survival situation where you are facing someone who intends to have his way no matter what, and the presence of body armor means he expects you to be armed and still does not care.
In the words of the old card player you must "Jump big or stay home".
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I also intend to stop the threat.
But before I ever applied for a carry permit I faced the fact that any effective shot I took would be life threatening or fatal to the creature I hit.
If you are not willing to face that fact then you should not carry a fire arm for SD
This is not a "combat situation" where a wounded foe also removes the guy taking him to an aid station.
This is a survival situation where you are facing someone who intends to have his way no matter what, and the presence of body armor means he expects you to be armed and still does not care.
In the words of the old card player you must "Jump big or stay home".
+1
I have reinforced these statements to folks that know me, on many occasions.