The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: bumpster on April 04, 2007, 07:42:30 AM
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I just watched the Surgical Point Shooting video and was very impressed. It really caught my attention for a reason not mentioned, and that is vision problems. I have been trained in the "focus on the front sight" method, but my aging eyes increasingly see only a blur out there at the end of my pistol. Has anyone here made the transition to this method, and how did it go? Did you have to "unlearn" many habits? Any comments about fron sight visibility, and it's role in this method? Thanks!
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I have the same problem bumster except I have no vision in right eye. I've been right handed all my life and when I bought my first pistol after moving from an anti gun state and found out all my shots were going left. So the store where I bought my pistol said see if I could shoot lefty which I did and have ever since. So this Fist-Fire method would be real good to learn.
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Care to expand a little into the technique(s) involved in this Fist-Fire?
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Hi Guys, :)
FIST-FIRE is the most comprehensive system of handgun shooting & fighting ever devised. We've been using the techniques since '98 with great success. Here's some testimonials:
http://www.tacticalshooting.com/testimonials.html
Basically, the foundation of the system is based upon the (3) Primary levels of Weapons presentation: Guard, Partial & Full Extension.
We Index Shoot from Retention of the Guard, Point Shoot from Partial Extension of the Reverse Weaver and Surgically Shoot from Full Extension of the Reverse Chapman where we look "at or through" the sights.
Then there are the several "default" shooting positions, too, which makes shooting in any situation fluid, as we flow in and out of different presentations quite easily. It's all based upon the science of Index & Point Shooting.
It's all covered in great detail the Fist-Fire Book and in on the new DVD's.
Cheers,
D.R. Middlebrooks - CEO
Tactical Shooting Academy
www.TacticalShooting.com
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So essentially you are talking about a point shooting method?
The videos on this website show the method in action, but discusses nothing of the mechanics. Can point shooting be done? Absolutely. Is it effective, Yes. With practice, this method could be performed by any shooter with varying degrees of proficiency.
How does "Fist-Fire" differ from other schools of thought on the point/instinctive shooting techniques (take Col. Rex Applegate for example)?
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So essentially you are talking about a point shooting method?
No, it's much more than that...
FIST-FIRE is a multi-dimensional system of shooting using Retention Shooting (one or two handed), Point Shooting (one or two handed) and Surgical Shooting (using both sighted and non sighted fire). These are the foundations of the system. There are other "Default" Shooting positions as well...
Because we don't use any (1) method of presenting the gun, there are NO LIMITING factors. It doesn't matter where you are or what you are doing, we have ALL aspects of the entire spectrum covered, allowing you shoot and hit reliably especially in low light.
How does "Fist-Fire" differ from other schools of thought on the point/instinctive shooting techniques (take Col. Rex Applegate for example)?
F-A-S is "Old School" Point Shooting, which is (1) Dimensional at best, and quite dated (sorta like Weaver or Chapman stances are today). Whereas FIST-FIRE is a multi-dimensional system of shooting using Retention Shooting (one or two handed), Point Shooting (one or two handed) and Surgical Shooting (using both sighted and non sighted fire). These are the foundations of the system. Then there are other "Default" Shooting positions as well.
Because we don't use any (1) method of presenting the gun or any (1) stance, there are NO LIMITING factors in F-F. It doesn't matter where you are or what you are doing, we have the entire spectrum' of defensive and offensive shooting covered. Much of this will be explained in the next series of videos Michael Bane has in store. 8)
Cheers,
D.R. Middlebrooks - CEO
Tactical Shooting Academy
www.TacticalShooting.com
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I don't want to sound like I am trying to dis-credit you or your method, but I am looking for more mechanics than advertising propaganda.
The Applegate method was taught to GI's that were in OSS training during WWII. He would normally get guys with little to no training, and would have to teach them a method of instinctive shooting usually in one day or less.
The late Col. Cooper also developed a similar style of shooting commonly used in IPSC competitions and by LEO's around the world.
The principles involved in both of these examples can be and have been described in detail. As with any shooting techniques, proper training should be sought by anyone wishing to employ these methods, and I understand that you have your own training camp, and train instructors in your methods as well. What I am trying to understand is: why is your method better than antone elses. In other words: sell me on buying training time in your camp. With the bevy of shooting schools across the nation such as LFI, Thunder Ranch, Valhalla, Gunsite, and Blackwater out there, what is it about your method, and other training courses you offer, that makes it different enough to warrant scheduling time as your pupil?
Again, I am not trying to be argumentative, nor am I trying to dis-credit. I am simply wanting to see what sets your courses apart from the Clint Smith's, Rob Pincus's, and Massad Ayoob's of the shooting world.
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I am looking forward to the next video installment on this method. Thanks for the reply D.R.
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Oh, this is about firearms.... :-[
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The principles involved in both of these examples can be and have been described in detail. As with any shooting techniques, proper training should be sought by anyone wishing to employ these methods, and I understand that you have your own training camp, and train instructors in your methods as well. What I am trying to understand is: why is your method better than antone elses. In other words: sell me on buying training time in your camp. With the bevy of shooting schools across the nation such as LFI, Thunder Ranch, Valhalla, Gunsite, and Blackwater out there, what is it about your method, and other training courses you offer, that makes it different enough to warrant scheduling time as your pupil?
Again, I am not trying to be argumentative, nor am I trying to dis-credit. I am simply wanting to see what sets your courses apart from the Clint Smith's, Rob Pincus's, and Massad Ayoob's of the shooting world.
It's something called "Down Range" performance...
In my camp we are serious shooters and believe that ONLY performance counts. That said, myself and my certified Instructors have won following major shooting titles using the FIST-FIRE techniques:
1st Place: 1998 Winchester World Challenge - Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 1998 Virginia State IDPA - ESP State Champion
1st Place: 1998 West Virginia IDPA -- ESP State Champion
1st Place: 1998 West Virginia IDPA - Ladies State Champion
1st Place: 1998 North Carolina IDPA -- ESP State Champion
1st Place: 1998 Eastern Regional IDPA - ESP Champion
1st Place: 1998 Eastern Regional IDPA Ladies Champion
1st Place: 1998 Florida State IDPA - ESP Champion
1st Place: 1998 Florida State IDPA - Ladies Champion
1st Place: 1999 World Shoot Off - Stock Gun Champion
1st Place: 1999 Tennessee State IDPA - SSP Champion
1st Place: 2000 Eastern Regional IDPA - CDP Champion
1st Place: 2000 Blackwater Challenge - CDP Champion
1st Place: 2000 Blackwater Challenge - Ladies Champion
1st Place: 2000 World Shoot Off - IDPA Champion
1st Place: 2000 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion
1st Place: 2000 Virginia State IDPA - ESP Champion
1st Place: 2000 Virginia State IDPA - Ladies Champion
1st Place: 2000 Tennessee State IDPA - ESP Champion
1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - Stock Gun Champion
1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - IDPA Champion
1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - Jr. Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - Ladies Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - Match Champion
1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - SSP Champion
1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - Ladies Champion
1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - SSP Champion
1st Place: 2001 Virginia State IDPA - SSP Champion
1st Place: 2001 Virginia State IDPA Ladies Champion
1st Place: 2002 Mid-West Regional IDPA - SSP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2002 Carolina Cup IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2002 Carolina Cup IDPA - Ladies State Champion
1st Place: 2002 Commonwealth Cup IDPA - Ladies State Champion
1st Place: 2002 Winchester World Challenge - IDPA World Champion
1st Place: 2002 World Shoot Off - IDPA World Champion
1st Place: 2002 World Shoot Off - Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 2002 All Navy Match - All Navy National Champion
1st Place: 2002 Florida State IDPA - ESP State Champion
1st Place: 2002 Tennessee State IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2002 Southern Regional IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2002 Mississippi State IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2003 Virginia Indoor IDPA - ESP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2003 Virginia Indoor IDPA - SSP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2003 Southern Regional IDPA - SSP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2003 Tennessee State IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2003 PSA Shootout - Stock Gun Speed Steel Champion
1st Place: 2003 Alabama IDPA - ESP State Champion
1st Place: 2003 Kentucky-Tennessee IDPA - SSP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2003 Commonwealth Cups IDPA - SSP Champion
1st Place: 2003 Winchester Challenge - IDPA World Champion
1st Place: 2003 World Shoot Off - Jr. Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 2003 World Shoot Off - IDPA World Champion
1st Place: 2003 Steel Challenge - IDPA World Speed Shooting Champion
1st Place: 2004 Virginia Indoor IDPA - ESP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2004 Indiana State IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2004 Southern Regional IDPA - ESP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2004 Mid-West Regional IDPA - SSP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2004 Winchester World Challenge - IDPA World Champion
1st Place: 2004 World Shoot Off - Jr. Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 2004 World Shoot Off - IDPA World Shoot Off Champion
1st Place: 2004 Steel Challenge - IDPA World Speed Shooting Champion
1st Place: 2004 N.C. RECON 3-Gun Championships - Match Champion
1st Place: 2004 N.C. Tactical Invitational 3-Gun Championship - Match Champion
1st Place: 2004 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion
1st Place: 2005 Virginia Indoor IDPA - ESP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2005 Arkansas State IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2005 PSA Shootout - Stock Gun Speed Steel Champion
1st Place: 2005 Maryland State IDPA - ESP State Champion
1st Place: 2005 USPSA Area 6 Championships - Limited-10 Champion
1st Place: 2005 MGM IRONMAN 3-Gun Championships - Tactical Champion
1st Place: 2005 N.C. RECON 3-Gun Championships - Match Champion
1st Place: 2005 Carolina Tactical Invitational 3-Gun - Match Champion
1st Place: 2005 Steel Challenge - IDPA ESP World Speed Shooting Champion
1st Place: 2005 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion
1st Place: 2005 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion
1st Place: 2006 Mason-Dixon 3-Gun Championships - Tactical Champion
1st Place: 2006 Arkansas USPSA 3-Gun Championships - Limited State Champion
1st Place: 2007 Tri State Regional IDPA Championships - SSP Champion
This data proves that the FIST-FIRE shooting methods work "as good or better" than anything Top Pro Shooters are using today. Yet it blends seemlessly with modern Mixed Martial Arts fighting techniques. This is why it's being endorsed by MMA experts. 8)
Further, we have tested FIST-FIRE in 'Force on Force' scenarios where SIMUNUTIONS were used on resisiting opponents. And I'm not talking about a few thousand rounds, I'm talking hundreds of thousands... :o
Bottom Line: My camp is made up of Pro Shooters and Mixed Martial Artists who only care about one thing: Finding out "What works and what doesn't" in regards to Tactical Shooting techniques. So, if you can show us a better way to shoot a handgun, we're all for it.
Until that day...
D.R. Middlebrooks - CEO
Tactical Shooting Academy
www.TacticalShooting.com
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DR, I'm going to be in the Tidewater area the first part of June, I've got plans already set so I can't take your class but I'm wondering if you allow visitors during the week at your facility, I might want to take your class the next time I come out to see my grandkids...
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It's something called "Down Range" performance...
In my camp we are serious shooters and believe that ONLY performance counts. That said, myself and my certified Instructors have won following major shooting titles using the FIST-FIRE techniques:
This data proves that the FIST-FIRE shooting methods work "as good or better" than anything Top Pro Shooters are using today. Yet it blends seemlessly with modern Mixed Martial Arts fighting techniques. This is why it's being endorsed by MMA experts. 8)
Further, we have tested FIST-FIRE in 'Force on Force' scenarios where SIMUNUTIONS were used on resisiting opponents. And I'm not talking about a few thousand rounds, I'm talking hundreds of thousands... :o
Bottom Line: My camp is made up of Pro Shooters and Mixed Martial Artists who only care about one thing: Finding out "What works and what doesn't" in regards to Tactical Shooting techniques. So, if you can show us a better way to shoot a handgun, we're all for it.
Until that day...
D.R. Middlebrooks - CEO
Tactical Shooting Academy
www.TacticalShooting.com
That is an impressive list of acheivements. I applaud you and your pupils for their accomplishments, but I am not asking for numbers. I am asking about mechanics.
I take shooting seriously, and intend upon getting as much training as my measley little salary can afford to after feeding two kids. I too belive in performance, because when the fit hits the shan, we are left having to employ the methods in which we train. I am interested in all forms and disciplines of handgunmanship, and for now I can only practice what I have seen, read and absorbed from others. The two videos that are on DRTV and some others that I found on the net are impressive, but at the same time delves not one bit upon principles and technique, simply that it can be done. I am not arguing that point.
HTH combat is also another arena that I have some amount of interest in, although I am getting to old and fat to go hands on with anyone for any length of time, I would like to know that I have the tools to effectively extricate myself from the situation as neatly as possible.
I have never hinted that I have a better way to do anything, let alone an entire shooting style.
Your "Bottom Line" says what I am looking for myself: to find out "What works and what doesn't". So my question again is: What sets your method apart from the "Old School" as you put it? Can you simply answer that question without the chiding tone? If you can't I will understand. I will just as easily explore other venues and encourage others that I speak with to do the same.
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I'm sold. Ever plan on bringing your training to Texas? it would be hard for me to get out of the house for a week out of state.
I could even train in AZ...
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DR, I'm going to be in the Tidewater area the first part of June, I've got plans already set so I can't take your class but I'm wondering if you allow visitors during the week at your facility, I might want to take your class the next time I come out to see my grandkids...
We're open to the public by appointment only. So, just call first and we'll set up a time: 757-357-9881 8)
By the way, we've got our first grand chid coming in May! :)
Take care,
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
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I'm sold. Ever plan on bringing your training to Texas? it would be hard for me to get out of the house for a week out of state.
I could even train in AZ...
I do need to make a trip to Phoenix, lot's of interest there. Just got to find the time... :-\
But I willl be in South Western Colorado July 28-30. Montrose is one of the most beautiful places to be that time of year (too hot anywhere esle). MMA expert Paul Sharp ( www.ISRMatrix.org ) & Pro Shooter Rick Simes will be there to re-certify as Fist-Fire Instructors. 8)
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
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Can you simply answer that question without the chiding tone? If you can't I will understand. I will just as easily explore other venues and encourage others that I speak with to do the same.
You'll see more on next weeks episode of DR TV... 8)
Cheers,
D.R. Middlebrooks - CEO
Tactical Shooting Academy
www.TacticalShooting.com
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I do need to make a trip to Phoenix, lot's of interest there. Just got to find the time... :-\
But I willl be in South Western Colorado July 28-30. Montrose is one of the most beautiful places to be that time of year (too hot anywhere esle). MMA expert Paul Sharp ( www.ISRMatrix.org ) & Pro Shooter Rick Simes will be there to re-certify as Fist-Fire Instructors. 8)
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
Hurry up on your trip to Phoenix... oh and make a trip to Houston while you are at it.
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Try the little book SHOOTING TO LIVE from Capt W.E. Fairbanks and Capt. E.A. Sykes. You can sit down and read it and understand it in about an hour. I almost couldn't bielive and simple take on armed combat. But then these guys have been in a few situations.
I try to lean towards KISS. I've used the above lessons in SHOOT TO LIVE and taught myself to point shoot. I'm in the process of getting the sights replaced off of my G37 with just inserts to make a smooth top.
I also shoot alot and with a 22lr AA conversion kit to save $$.
With all of that said, I think professional training is the best. I've been to classes in the service, from the PTI, and even the local community college. I've learned from everybody. I plan on getting over to VA and visit with Mr Middlebrook for a week when Jr gets into kindergarden in about a year. Poor folks have poor ways! Might try to get my 14 year old Princess there also.
Jerry
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I'm as eager as anyone else to see a "new" system that makes all others outdated, but am also eager to see something more than a list of (mostly) IDPA titles that do not list the level of competition. An IDPA (or any) state title in marksman/sharpshooter is not the same as a first in Expert/Master level. Most of the top level USPSA shooters will switch to a new gun or technique just to shave a few hundredths on their times, so I would expect them to be very enthused about these methods. Along with many others, I was removing the sights from 1911's and doing what appears to be very some very similiar things nearly 30 years ago; it's amazing how well one can use the bare slide as a sight for precision shooting. Jim Cirillo also has published a well known method of indexing the firearm without using the conventional sights, although he does suggest it only for the closer engagements. The last time I saw him (at a range in Panama City, Fl), he was testing lasers, and told me he had come to the conclusion that anyone without a laser in low light shooting was at a distinct disadvantage; this seems to match the conclusions of Michael and others. I'm looking forward to Michael's usual superb coverage of your school and methods.
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I'm as eager as anyone else to see a "new" system that makes all others outdated, but am also eager to see something more than a list of (mostly) IDPA titles that do not list the level of competition. An IDPA (or any) state title in marksman/sharpshooter is not the same as a first in Expert/Master level...
Dude, those wins are for OVERALL DIVISION CHAMPIONSHIPS...not class wins like Marksman, SharpShooter, etc... ::)
And that includes (3) National IDPA Championship titles in ESP and a bunch of World IDPA Championships titles in Speed Steel.
And as far as other all the other Point Shooters go, let me go on record right here and now and say this:
"I didn't invent Point Shooting, I perfected it. No brag, just fact." 8)
D.R.
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How helpful are the DVDs? What i mean is, could I learn the basics and proper technique form them and then practice to become proficient?
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How helpful are the DVDs? What i mean is, could I learn the basics and proper technique form them and then practice to become proficient?
Actually, we've been teaching off the DVD's in class lately... 8)
DVD-1 is entitled, "What we do and why we do it".
We give you lot's of shooting demonstrations and detailed explanations as to what it is we do and why we do it. The video clips you'll see here on DR TV came off DVD-1. They are about 20 minutes long. DVD-1 is 1 hour and 20 minutes long, so there's much more information and even more exciting shooting action.
DVD-2 is entitled, "How we do what we do" .
This is an actual teaching video. It too is 1 hour 20 minutes long and we take you right into some actual F-F classes. 8)
While the videos do not replace the actual coaching you'd get from me or my certifed Fist-Fire Instructors, it's the next best thing to being there. We also have the Fist-Fire Book with 160 photo's on technique alone, which is a prerequiste for class.
Cheers,
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
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Actually, we've been teaching off the DVD's in class lately... 8)
DVD-1 is entitled, "What we do and why we do it".
We give you lot's of shooting demonstrations and detailed explanations as to what it is we do and why we do it. The video clips you'll see here on DR TV came off DVD-1. They are about 20 minutes long. DVD-1 is 1 hour and 20 minutes long, so there's much more information and even more exciting shooting action.
DVD-2 is entitled, "How we do what we do" .
This is an actual teaching video. It too is 1 hour 20 minutes long and we take you right into some actual F-F classes. 8)
While the videos do not replace the actual coaching you'd get from me or my certifed Fist-Fire Instructors, it's the next best thing to being there. We also have the Fist-Fire Book with 160 photo's on technique alone, which is a prerequiste for class.
Cheers,
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
I am sold on the why you do. I just need to learn the how you do. i want to know the proper grip(s) and what I am looking at if not looking through sights. It sounds like DVD 2 is for me. Where can I get it?
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BTW - Will it work with a Glock 23C? I noticed you used SA. The Glock trigger is not the best in the world and has tons of slack.
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BTW - Will it work with a Glock 23C?
NO! You should never shoot from retention with a ported pistol! :o
You could get blinded from the blast going up under your eye glasses. :(
I noticed you used SA. The Glock trigger is not the best in the world and has tons of slack.
The Glock trigger is not a problem. Fist-Fire Instructor Rick Simes used a G19 and was Runner up (twice) behind Dave Sevigny at the IDPA Nationals... 8)
You can order DVD's and books from our On Line Store:
http://www.tacticalshooting.com/merchandise.html
Cheers,
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
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D.R., has FIST-FIRE ever been written up, reviewed, or reported in any of the better gun magazines?
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D.R., has FIST-FIRE ever been written up, reviewed, or reported in any of the better gun magazines?
It was first written up back on 2000 in Combat Handguns and then again in 2002 when the FIST-FIRE Book was published. But it was a real hard sell at the time, the shooting industry just wasn't ready for it... :(
So, I took a lot of criticism about it over the years (especially over the Internet). Seemed like to the "Modern Technqiue" guys the very thought of "Point Shooting" was nothing short of heresy! :o That and using shooting methods like the "Reverse Weaver" and "Reverse Chapman" are still considered blasphemous even today. ::)
But they can no longer deny the system works. We're getting good reports off the street and from the sand box (mainly because the Reverse Weaver rolls over so seamlessly to the M4 carbine). And we're seeing more and more Grand Master shooters using our grip and Surgical Shooting position everyday. That and point shooters are coming out of the woodwork everywhere lately.
So, I think FIST-FIRE's time has finally come. Book sales are sky rocketing and the DVD's are hard to keep in stock. 8)
Stay safe,
D.R.
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Thanks. Do you happen to remember who wrote the Combat Handguns 2000 article? I have all issues from that time, but they're buried in storage and it will take me a while to dig it out.
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You can order DVD's and books from our On Line Store:
http://www.tacticalshooting.com/merchandise.html
DR, I went to website but failed to notice the whopping 30% (or was it 40%?) discount for DRTV viewers. :D
Any combination pricing, like buy both videos and get free shipping or something?
Thanks.
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Thanks. Do you happen to remember who wrote the Combat Handguns 2000 article? I have all issues from that time, but they're buried in storage and it will take me a while to dig it out.
Bob Pilgrim wrote an article in June 2000 issue Combat Handguns and another in August 2002 Combat Handguns...
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I fully agree with you that in most cases there will not be time to use your sights and as nice as they are most devices, lasers, night sights, what have will only see use at the range. Most will be lucky in not hitting themselves in the gut trying to clear their jackets.
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Right... 8)
Most people haven't ever done any FoF training with SIMS (or even Airsoft for that matter) so they really don't have a clue (no disrespect intended) in regards to what it's going to be like in a REAL street fight.
My eyes were opened back in the 90's. Back then, in a square range setting, with a 1-dimensional target with no arms or legs, I could draw pretty fast and kill the paper EVERYTIME using the sights, no problem. I thought just because I had a gun and I could shoot pretty well, that I was a real Bad Ass!! 8) BUT BOY WAS I WRONG!! :-[
In FoF, the MMA guys would take my gun away from me and beat me with it everytime!!! >:(
Seemed like ANYTIME they got within 21' of me they'd usually end up with the gun. That sucked. That's what using the "Front Sight, Press" mentality got me. :P My world was rocked at that point.
So, I began looking for other methods and I started shooting from retention FIRST. That's where I devleoped the "Guard" shooting position. That was the FIRST STEP. That's where it all started, and it began evolving from there to what it is today. 8)
Cheers,
D.R.
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Bob Pilgrim wrote an article in June 2000 issue Combat Handguns and another in August 2002 Combat Handguns...
The name didn't ring any bells (I've been reading Combat Handguns for more than 20 years) so I googled it. Came up with a number of hits on his name with articles in SWAT magazine (which I haven't read since the early '90s). Any chance you're thinking of SWAT? Because I'm gonna have to move half my basement to find my 2000-2002 Combat Handguns, and I'm gonna be WAY pissed if it's not in there.... ;) ;D
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Try this link off my website:
http://www.tacticalshooting.com/news.html
It's all there...
D.R.
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While D.R. Middlebrooks certainly needs no defense from me, having proved himself many times in the field and on the range, I cannot let some remarks and observations on this blog go unchallenged. First off, let me capsule my meager credentials. I am old enough to have been trained in every close quarters combat philosophy since the Applegate-Fairbairn techniques were taught to U.S. Marine Special Operation Capable units. While a police officer and SWAT team member, I was trained in the FBI system first developed by Col. Walter Walsh (no relation). Later, as an "A" class shooter, I used the "modern technique" as advocated by Cooper, et alii. In four decades of carrying a firearm (as a Marine, as a police officer, and as a body guard for a porn film producer) and in twenty years as a firearms and self-defense instructor, I found that real combat---whether in the jungle or in the back alley---was very unlike what happened on the firing ranges of Camp Lejeune or Hogan's Alley. Donnie Middlebrooks and I haven't seen or spoken to each other in more than twenty years, but let me assure you that this is a man with an ethos of personal integrity so powerful that duplicity or mendacity cannot exist in his world. He has taken a world-class skill at arms and developed a scientific methodology that not only works but lends itself perfectly to how human beings react to life-threatening events. If you have not been conditioned mentally you will either flee or freeze. If you have been trained, you will fight. If you have been trained by D.R. Middlebrooks, you will win.
B.C. is that you? :o
Man, where does the time go...
I still quote you in every class I teach:
"What's the #1 Rule in a Gun Fight? Gun must be in hand BEFORE fight begins" - B.C. Walsh, 1980
Hey, remember the day Jeff Copper came to our range and asked about your qualifications "to even have an opinion on combat pistolcraft". You said something to the effect of this:
"Well, Jeff the only kills I have in combat were with a 1911 .45..." :D
Man, was that back in the day or what?? :D
Take care, Amigo!
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
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I've reviewed the videos; the demonstrations are very impressive. However, I've found in FoF exercises you seldom are firing from your usual range stance. How do you achieve a repeatable index with a dynamically variable relationship between your feet, your torso and the target?
How long does it take to master the system? While phenomenal point shooting is clearly possible, I thought one of the weaknesses was the amount of practice needed to hone and maintain the skill. Most advocates of point shooting seem to accept a level of accuracy that I find unacceptable, but can achieve that with limited practice. From the videos, it seems that your system has a high standard for accuracy, so I wonder if you pay a cost in practice time.
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Most advocates of point shooting seem to accept a level of accuracy that I find unacceptable, but can achieve that with limited practice.
Tim, could you elaborate on this a bit? What is the level of accuracy that you find unacceptable? What level of accuracy DO you find acceptable in point shooting? I have my own ideas but would like to hear yours--and others'--before I share them.
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I've reviewed the videos; the demonstrations are very impressive. However, I've found in FoF exercises you seldom are firing from your usual range stance. How do you achieve a repeatable index with a dynamically variable relationship between your feet, your torso and the target?
How long does it take to master the system? While phenomenal point shooting is clearly possible, I thought one of the weaknesses was the amount of practice needed to hone and maintain the skill. Most advocates of point shooting seem to accept a level of accuracy that I find unacceptable, but can achieve that with limited practice. From the videos, it seems that your system has a high standard for accuracy, so I wonder if you pay a cost in practice time.
It's not about foot position or stance. It's all about GRIP and INDEX... 8)
And contrary to popular belief, we don't use a "BODY INDEX" either. Never have, never will, as it's virtually impossible to body index while moving. :(
As per the F-F book, it's all based upon "Optical Alignment and Kinesthetic Awareness".
FoF? We've shot literally hundreds of thousands of rounds of SIMS (not Air Soft) in FoF using resisting opponents. So, F-F has been thoroughly tested and endorsed by some of the Top MMA experts in the world. Nothing works better. We've proven it time and time again.
Practice? Barb & I shot those video's stone cold. We can do it because we can "re-create" the grip and index anytime, anywhere. There's a methodology to the teachings. It's totally bio mechanical. It's science pure and simple. 8)
Another example is Rick Simes. He is one of my best Fist-Fire Instructors. But due to his new job on Memphis PD, he hasn't had time to train in over a year. He just shot his first match in 1.5 years and won a Tri State Regional IDPA match. How'd that happen? ???
In a word, "FIST-FIRE"... :o
"Once the sword is made, all you have to do is keep it sharp." - D.R. Middlebrooks
www.TacticalShooting.com
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Snake-
My standard for acceptable accuracy in training is a softball size group out to 15 yards, down zero on an IDPA target (8") out to 25 yards, all hits on the torso out to 40 yards.
It's not about foot position or stance. It's all about GRIP and INDEX... 8)
I'm still not sure how you reproduce it.
it's virtually impossible to body index while moving. :(
Yeah, that's what I thought.
As per the F-F book, it's all based upon "Optical Alignment and Kinesthetic Awareness".
Well, I have the book on order.FoF? We've shot literally hundreds of thousands of rounds of SIMS (not Air Soft) in FoF using resisting opponents.
That's expensive.Practice? Barb & I shot those video's stone cold. We can do it because we can "re-create" the grip and index anytime, anywhere. There's a methodology to the teachings. It's totally bio mechanical. It's science pure and simple. 8)
How much practice does it take to get to that point?
he hasn't had time to train in over a year. He just shot his first match in 1.5 years and won a Tri State Regional IDPA match. How'd that happen?
That's pretty impressive.
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How long does it take? That depends on the persons willingness to learn and dedication to train...
I can show you how to build the house, but I can't build it for you. Everyone learns at their own pace, but on average, it takes about 3 days to get established in Level 1 (Guard, Partial & Full Extension). And that's with good coaching.
Once the foundation is poored, the rest of the house can be built upon it.
The F-F book has 160 photo's on technique. It takes you up into Level 3 of the F-F System.
Cheers, :)
DR
www.TacticalShooting.com
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D.R.
Great stuff!! A question......I assume that FIST-FIRE works equally well with revolvers as with pistols but I'm not sure. Is there an indexing advantage provided by the flat slide of a pistol versus the round barrel of a revolver or does that not play into your method? Would it work well with a snubnose revolver at distance?
Thanks
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D.R.
Great stuff!! A question......I assume that FIST-FIRE works equally well with revolvers as with pistols but I'm not sure. Is there an indexing advantage provided by the flat slide of a pistol versus the round barrel of a revolver or does that not play into your method? Would it work well with a snubnose revolver at distance?
Thanks
Good questions! (like you need my approval :-[ ) I'll be interested in those answers.
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I've been making the transition.
Just understanding the grip angle and the slight change in how I hold the gun has made a world of difference to me.
I have a hard time seeing my front sight, but my distance vision is good. Since I don't have reading glasses on all of the time, I've got to make the switch to no sight shooting. This method works well for me. I've spent a lot of time just practicing drawing my pistol and pointing, when I check the sights I'm usually dead on.
The #2 DVD was very helpful. Also, I ordered the sunglasses and the checkout process made me check out twice with two shipping charges. The second shipping charge was refunded without my asking.
People who are ethical in the small things are usually ethical in the big things.
David Russell
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I have a 1911A1 full size and equipped with a Crimson Trace Laser Grip.
I have been practising point shooting using the laser when I run across Dr.Middlebrook`s video.
When shooting at the range I focus on the target and bring the pistol in to view.
I just use the same sight picture that I use with the Laser
It works!! I can hit the target every time all the way to 10 yards.
I am 78 years old and my eyes are not what they used to be.
I am anxious to read more on his thecnique
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WIth regard to the point shooting DVD"s. Can the average Joe who is 60 buy your DVD's and learn you method. Will he beable to defend himself better or just get himself hurt, thiinking he has been trained?
Thanks,
BRC
I'm, a retired police officer in Houston. :)
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From what Ive read this is another style of point shooting mixed with other techniques. I have been studying PS for some time and find it simple and effective. The convulsive grip is the key to the technique. This has been taught for years by people like Roger Phillips , Matt Tempkin and Tom Kohl. I have seen good progress and hits on the run after 1 lesson. If you are comfortable with your firearm and are mobile this is a great tool for your tool box. Many heated discussions have been had on the net by the MT guys and the PS guys, like I said just another tool for the tool box. The basic technique can be picked up on the net, and if practiced properly can be utilized effectively until you can polish it with proper instruction. I should add that there are films on you tube showing point shooting .
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WIth regard to the point shooting DVD"s. Can the average Joe who is 60 buy your DVD's and learn you method. Will he beable to defend himself better or just get himself hurt, thiinking he has been trained?
Thanks,
BRC
I'm, a retired police officer in Houston. :)
We filmed much of the DVD's in actual FIST-FIRE classes. We're also teaching off them in class now. It's a great tool for my Instructors, too. It's the next best thing to being there...in an actual FIST-FIRE Class. 8)
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
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I have a 1911A1 full size and equipped with a Crimson Trace Laser Grip.
I have been practising point shooting using the laser when I run across Dr.Middlebrook`s video.
When shooting at the range I focus on the target and bring the pistol in to view.
I just use the same sight picture that I use with the Laser
It works!! I can hit the target every time all the way to 10 yards.
I am 78 years old and my eyes are not what they used to be.
I am anxious to read more on his thecnique
Lasers are definitely a great tool to train with...
Glad it's working out for you. :)
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
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@ D.R. Middlebrooks...
First off, do you have a YouTube channel where you might have some very abbreviated and/or edited clips from your DVD's uploaded?
I am kinda curious about this FIST-FIRE method. I have taken one whole class from Dave Sevigny that lasted just one whole day. In my later email exchanges with Dave Sevigny (of Team Glock fame, by the way), he brought up just passing-ly his involvement with this FIST-FIRE system.
Second, as far as that list goes with all the different match and division wins, would you care to add actual names to that list?
It is difficult for me to tell if you have just 5 disciples...err...FAST-FIRE sponsored shooters going around the country scooping up all these wins...or if you have 20 devout followers.
Which also begs the question....did these people start from scratch, green as grass to guns with the FIST-FIRE technique?
Or...
Were they already excellent shooters who then went on to sing the praises of the FIST-FIRE method?
Third...now don't get me wrong... I don't mean to rub you the wrong way...but I really do think that people have been beaten about the head and shoulders so much about sight picture, sight picture, SIGHT PICTURE!! that it has become a paradigm/dogma.
And consequently is like a stumbling block to shooting both quickly and accurately.
At across the room distances or down the alley distances, in my opinion, you do not need sights.
Or at the least you don't need a sight picture like this: []_I_[] in my opinion...
People are making it out harder than it should be.
FWIW... I am an IDPA National Champion too ;)...and a B classed USPSA shooter.
Is it possible to UNlearn what you would consider my bad habits?
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I went to the "Mother Ship" and did a search for Middlebrooks.
This thread right here:
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=47167&hl=middlebrooks
might be useful to some people who are skeptical.
I will let you all come away with your own conclusions after reading that thread.
I think if you put enough rounds downrange, you will just naturally come to that Eureka! moment where things just feel right (aka body index and/or natural point of aim) and you really don't need the sights at all.
I think a lot of the top USPSA shooters have travelled different routes, but eventually they all kinda reach the same conclusion that D.R. Middlebrooks did. Sometimes you need the sights. Sometimes you don't.
There isn't some magic elixir or some super secret handshake technique that will turn you into a Rob Leatham overnight. That takes practice...concentrated and insightful practice...not just sending rounds downrange to go, "Oh, hey, look at me! I sent 500 rounds downrange today...I am such the better shooter now."
You have to have a goal and milestones/objectives along the way. Without that...well...you're just making noise... you might as well be setting off a pack of firecrackers.
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@ D.R. Middlebrooks...
First off, do you have a YouTube channel where you might have some very abbreviated and/or edited clips from your DVD's uploaded?
Just the ones I've posted here...
Second, as far as that list goes with all the different match and division wins, would you care to add actual names to that list?
It is difficult for me to tell if you have just 5 disciples...err...FAST-FIRE sponsored shooters going around the country scooping up all these wins...or if you have 20 devout followers.
Sure, no problem... 8)
Let's see, As far as National & World Championship titles go, I won most of the titles myself followed by Daniel Horner, Barb & Rick Simes. Then there was James Eddy, Andy Horner who won some Regionals. Bob Hundley & Kevin Apland won some High Military Titles. Here's the updated list of what me and six of my FIST-FIRE Instructors won:
1st Place: 1998 Winchester World Challenge - Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 1998 Virginia State IDPA – - ESP State Champion
1st Place: 1998 West Virginia IDPA -- ESP State Champion
1st Place: 1998 West Virginia IDPA - Ladies State Champion
1st Place: 1998 North Carolina IDPA -- ESP State Champion
1st Place: 1998 Eastern Regional IDPA - ESP Champion
1st Place: 1998 Eastern Regional IDPA Ladies Champion
1st Place: 1998 Florida State IDPA - ESP Champion
1st Place: 1998 Florida State IDPA - Ladies Champion
1st Place: 1999 World Shoot Off - Stock Gun Champion
1st Place: 1999 Tennessee State IDPA - SSP Champion
1st Place: 2000 Eastern Regional IDPA - CDP Champion
1st Place: 2000 Blackwater Challenge - CDP Champion
1st Place: 2000 Blackwater Challenge - Ladies Champion
1st Place: 2000 World Shoot Off - IDPA Champion
1st Place: 2000 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion
1st Place: 2000 Virginia State IDPA - ESP Champion
1st Place: 2000 Virginia State IDPA - Ladies Champion
1st Place: 2000 Tennessee State IDPA - ESP Champion
1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - Stock Gun Champion
1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - IDPA Champion
1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - Jr. Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 2001 World Shoot Off - Ladies Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - Match Champion
1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - ESP Champion
1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - Ladies Champion
1st Place: 2001 Blackwater Challenge - SSP Champion
1st Place: 2001 Virginia State IDPA - SSP Champion
1st Place: 2001 Virginia State IDPA Ladies Champion
1st Place: 2002 Mid-West Regional IDPA - SSP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2002 Carolina Cup IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2002 Carolina Cup IDPA - Ladies State Champion
1st Place: 2002 Commonwealth Cup IDPA - Ladies State Champion
1st Place: 2002 Winchester World Challenge - IDPA World Champion
1st Place: 2002 World Shoot Off - IDPA World Champion
1st Place: 2002 World Shoot Off - Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 2002 All Navy Match – All Navy National Champion
1st Place: 2002 Florida State IDPA - ESP State Champion
1st Place: 2002 Tennessee State IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2002 Southern Regional IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2002 Mississippi State IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2003 Virginia Indoor IDPA - ESP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2003 Virginia Indoor IDPA - SSP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2003 Southern Regional IDPA - SSP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2003 Tennessee State IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2003 PSA Shootout - Stock Gun Speed Steel Champion
1st Place: 2003 Alabama IDPA - ESP State Champion
1st Place: 2003 Kentucky-Tennessee IDPA - SSP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2003 Commonwealth Cups IDPA - SSP Champion
1st Place: 2003 Winchester Challenge – IDPA World Champion
1st Place: 2003 World Shoot Off - Jr. Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 2003 World Shoot Off - IDPA World Champion
1st Place: 2003 Steel Challenge - IDPA World Speed Shooting Champion
1st Place: 2004 Virginia Indoor IDPA - ESP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2004 Indiana State IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2004 Southern Regional IDPA - ESP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2004 Mid-West Regional IDPA - SSP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2004 Winchester World Challenge - IDPA World Champion
1st Place: 2004 World Shoot Off - Jr. Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 2004 World Shoot Off - IDPA World Shoot Off Champion
1st Place: 2004 Steel Challenge - IDPA World Speed Shooting Champion
1st Place: 2004 N.C. RECON 3-Gun Championships - Match Champion
1st Place: 2004 N.C. Tactical Invitational 3-Gun Championship - Match Champion
1st Place: 2004 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion
1st Place: 2005 Virginia Indoor IDPA - ESP Regional Champion
1st Place: 2005 Arkansas State IDPA - SSP State Champion
1st Place: 2005 PSA Shootout - Stock Gun Speed Steel Champion
1st Place: 2005 Maryland IDPA Championships - Enhanced Service Division
1st Place: 2005 USPSA Area 6 Championships - Limited-10 Champion
1st Place: 2005 MGM IRONMAN 3-Gun Championships - Tactical Champion
1st Place: 2005 N.C. RECON 3-Gun Championship - Match Champion
1st Place: 2005 Carolina Tactical 3-Gun Championship - Match Champion
1st Place: 2005 Steel Challenge IDPA - ESP World Champion
1st Place: 2005 IDPA Nationals - ESP National Champion
1st Place: 2006 Mason-Dixon 3-Gun Championships - Tactical Champion
1st Place: 2006 Arkansas USPSA 3-Gun Championships - Limited State Champion
1st Place: 2007 VA Indoor Regional IDPA Championships - ESP Champion
1st Place: 2007 Tri State Regional IDPA Championships - SSP Champion
1st Place: 2007 Blackwater Regional Challenge - Match Champion
1st Place: 2007 Midwest 3-Gun Championships - Scoped Tactical Champion
1st Place: 2007 Winchester World Challenge - Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 2007 American Handgunner World Shoot Off - Stock Gun World Champion
1st Place: 2007 TSA "Street Gun Nationals" - Top Military National Champion
1st Place: 2007 TSA "Street Gun Nationals" - Top Lady National Champion
1st Place: 2007 TSA "Street Gun Nationals" - Top LEO National Champion
1st Place: 2007 TSA "Street Gun Nationals" - Mid-size Pistol National Champion
1st Place: 2009 Oklahoma IDPA - LEO State Champion
1st Place: 2009 Alabama IDPA - SSP State Champion
Which also begs the question....did these people start from scratch, green as grass to guns with the FIST-FIRE technique?
Or...
Were they already excellent shooters who then went on to sing the praises of the FIST-FIRE method?
Daniel came to me from scratch, as did most of them. Rick Simes was already a Master IDPA Shooter when he took a class from me in Memphis in 2000. His best finish had been about 20 something at the IDPA Nat's before FIST-FIRE. After training with me he immediately scored (2) Runner Up spots behind Dave Sevigny and Daniel Horner. He went onto become a Grand Master in IPSC Production and a National Champ in the Tactical Shooting Association. NOTE: Rick's not a sponsored shooter, he just shoots matches for fun now and then when he's not busy on Memphis P.D.. :o
Third...now don't get me wrong... I don't mean to rub you the wrong way...but I really do think that people have been beaten about the head and shoulders so much about sight picture, sight picture, SIGHT PICTURE!! that it has become a paradigm/dogma.
And consequently is like a stumbling block to shooting both quickly and accurately.
At across the room distances or down the alley distances, in my opinion, you do not need sights...
I don't think it's a matter of using sights as much it is a matter of having TIME to use them. If you have TIME use the SIGHTS, that's what I teach... :)
FWIW... I am an IDPA National Champion too ;)...and a B classed USPSA shooter.
COOL! 8) What'd you win?
Is it possible to UNlearn what you would consider my bad habits?
THAT is the hardest part. Re-programing the software. But YES, it is possible...
Cheers,
D.R.
www.TacticalShooting.com
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I won Stock Service Pistol Sharpshooter Class at the 2007 IDPA Nat's. I got the bump to Expert Class.
Nope, unfortunately it wasn't an overall division win, but, hey, maybe one day. ;)
As to my thoughts on classifications within shooting organizations...well...that is a whole 'nother discussion entirely and way beyond the scope of this thread.
Trust me... I have my opinions on that. ;D
Thanks DR for returning my PM.
I am trying to keep an open mind about your system.
Maybe one of these days when money and work schedules jive up I could make it to one of your classes, and just see what it is all about for myself...without the undue influence of your internet detractors.
Until then, DR, I do wish you the best of luck and continued success.
Merry Christmas, everybody! 8)