The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: HAWKFISH on April 05, 2008, 09:09:18 AM
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Okay, which do you perfer? (another chance to pick one or the other and tell why lol) If you only had two choices only..the 9mm or the .40 and nothing else, no .45, .380's..nothing, just one of the two..... Last night in the live blog the idea of .40 and 9mm came up. The man, Michael Bane, said that he is not a huge fan of the .40 in general and that he would take a 9mm with trick ammo. I've heard him say similar on the weekly podcasts. And I see his points and where he is coming from.
Well, I kinda almost feel the same, just with the two reversed. I'm not a huge 9mm fan in general, when I can have the .40 as a first choice. I do like 9mm's. I just like .40's better. In, fact all my pistols right are either 9mm's, .40's, or .22LR's. I guess for me I can shoot my .40's just as good or almost as good (if not it's super close always) as my 9mm's. Muzzle-flip/recoil for me is not much different. Yes the 9mm is not quite as much. But, if it is so close..then why not shoot a .40 with a bigger bullet and more ummth.. ? How do ya'll feel. If you can only choose one of the two? I must also say that I do carry 9mm sometimes and I love 9mm's too.
P.S. I would also like to give a special thanks for Michael Bane shooting his Glock 19 at Gunsite a couple of days ago. Hopefully, the spirit of Jeff Cooper isn't angry and all is fine now. **I am also glad that he didn't explode while shooting his Glock! ;D
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There's just no way I'd carry a 9mm when I could have a .40 in the same exact sized pistol. The only way to get decent performance out of a 9mm is to load it to .44 Magnum pressure levels. They try to make a 9mm into an acceptable substitute for the .45 ACP, my actual preference. Since that isn't one of the options, I'd go with the .40, which is also loaded to high pressure levels to simulate a .45 ACP. All the users and suppliers of the guns and ammo, in 9mm and .40, demand .45 ACP performance, but aren't willing to admit that the .45 is superior to their pet caliber. A .45 bullet is nearly double the cross sectional area of a 9mm, .35x.35 vs. .45x.45, and all else being equal, bigger is always better. The .40 Short & Weak comes a lot closer than the 9mm, although at a cost of snappier recoil than a 9mm OR .45. If you can't have a .45, the .40 is next best, with the 9mm a distant third place. The only scenario where none of this applies is if you have a sub-compact 9mm that IS NOT also made in a .40 caliber version. There are very few of those made anymore.
Another comparison that I think gets the point across is to consider the Walther PPK that James Bond carried. Why on earth would he carry a .32 ACP in a pistol that's also chambered in .380 ACP. How many people would choose the smaller, less effective .32? My guess is right around zero. So why choose a 9 over a .40 in a same-sized gun? If you're packing the same sized gun, chose the larger caliber, whether it's .32 vs. .380, or 9mm vs. .40.
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Well, like I said last night during the live blog...... ballistically speaking a hot 9mm load (+P) has pretty much the same ft lbs of force as a typical .40 caliber load.
Its important to remember that velocity is twice as important as mass in the ballistic equation - thats why a .357 mag is so much more potent then a .38 special.
Mass x (Velocity squared) รท 450400 = foot pounds energy
Consequently, going from 9mm to .40 caliber does not produce an extremely significant gain in the amount of stopping power, but it will make your carry gun a few ounces heavier. The same is also true about comparing .40 loads to .45 caliber loads. The real significant gain is when going from 9mm to .45 caliber. (So, if one is not happy with 9mm stopping power, then why not just make the jump to .45?)
However, there is something to be said for the larger diameter rounds being able to create larger holes in a target and thus larger
wound cavities and more internal damage - and thats really where the big and slow .45 shines!
And yeah, yeah, yeah.... I know some of you are gonna say that its just handgun ammo and that they are just by definition inferior, BUT you are talking about your concealed carry setup. You want to make sure that you are carrying the most potent load possible that your particular carry gun's caliber can use. So, I think that when it comes to your carry ammo, you have to look at it like a hunter would look at his rifle ammo. (One shot, one kill. Right?) Check the ballistics, look at what calibers/loads get you in terms of energy on the target, and see what you feel comfortable having in a carry caliber.
Federal has a nice online ballistics calculator that also includes their line of handgun ammunition if you want to compare calibers and their differing ft lbs of energy they can deliver:
http://www.federalpremium.com/ballistics/default.aspx
P.S. This ballistic comparison is exactly why I voted for the 9mm as the smallest possible caliber for concealed carry. I personally don't feel comfortable carrying anything smaller then 9mm. After all, a .380 has about half the ft lbs of energy on target as a standard 9mm round.
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Sorry Hawkfish, I am with Michael on this one.
Two reasons primarily.
1) For a given size the 9 mm gives you more capacity, which if you need it is good (though you really may need more practice :D). As Michael indicated all handgun bullets are insufficient, and shot placement is what is important in self defense. With modern bullets you gain little to nothing in one shot stops in .40 vs 9mm. This doesn't work into my own ccw equation as I either carry a J frame airweight or a P3AT in calibers not applicable to this thread :o!
2)Practice is important to be effective and the 9mm is cheaper to practice with. This disparity may get larger as prices skyrocket out of control.
I see the .40 as a solution in search of a problem. Not bad in its own right, but the 9 trumps it in capacity and the 1911 food trumps it in weight/frontal area!
Addict
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I'd take 9mm because of availability / cost. If we were to assume for the sake of this exercise that the costs and availability were equal, I'd probably carry .40... because as the OP asks, why not? I'm one that's had little tolerance for the never-ending 9mm/45acp wars. Adding .40 into a religious war just further distracts from what I think shooters should really focus on. That being speed and accuracy.
Sure, 10mm is better than .45 which is better than .40 which is better than 9mm. But a COM hit with a 9mm beats a miss with a 10mm. I mean, I'm sure all of you guys get this, and I'm preaching to the choir. But in my opinion, we're probably better off spending that energy doing dry-fire drills from concealment or working on body indexing and other drills.
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I'd pick 9mm for 2 reasons, Ammo available pretty much everywhere in the world, and I'm more familiar with the 9 only having shot one .40 cal but owned several 9mm over the years. Generaly I make do with what I have, So I buy .45 and .357 for "real" use and .22 for playing ;D
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The idea that velocity is twice as important as mass is udder nonsense!
The effectiveness of any bullet is dependent on a number of factors, mass, velocity, initial diameter, expansion, energy transfer, energy loss, etc., etc.
A foot-pound of energy is the energy needed to move 1 pound 1 foot so why doesn't a 600fpe bullet knock a 200lb man 3 feet? Because the fpe is nearly meaningless in the real world! The transmission of the energy to the target occurs over time (a very short time, but still over time), the bullets tendency to deform which wastes energy, the conversion of kinetic energy to other forms (mostly heat), the targets ability to absorb energy all play a part in the effect of the bullet on the target.
If we go by 1/2 mass times velocity squared and ignore all the other factors then yes, a 50gr bullet at 4000fps would be a death-ray and a 100gr bullet at 1000fps would be worthless by comparison. Here in the real world a huge number of factors enter into the equation and render the paper calculations of fpe meaningless.
With a low-powered pistol round (and they are basically ALL low-powered) the mass and diameter of the bullet can and will make a huge difference because they are the means by which the energy of the powder are transfered to the target. Yes a .357 is better than a .38 in terms of power, but a .38 jhp will be far more effective than a pointy nosed .357 fmj because the jhp will deliver the energy to the target while the fmj will zip through with minimal disruption.
All that being said, the way to choose between a 9mm and a .40S&W is be finding out which YOU SHOOT BETTER, which you are more comfortable with, which has the more effective ammunition AVAILABLE. I would rather have a good effective hollow-point 9mm than a .40 with fmj's because I know the jhp's will be more likely to incapacitate the target faster and thereby improve my chances of ending the situation. If the bullets are equally effective at expanding and delivering their energy to the target I would choose the .40 as the increased diameter is more likely to damage the target in a critical way and the increased mass means more of the energy will be available to do the damage as the bullet passes through the target instead of rapidly shedding the energy as it first hits.
I don't mean to be to be insulting or anything but too many people spew mathematical formulas without understanding how the math and the matter interact and it results in real world failures.
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The idea that velocity is twice as important as mass is udder nonsense!
I don't mean to be to be insulting or anything but too many people spew mathematical formulas without understanding how the math and the matter interact and it results in real world failures.
First of all..... None taken. :)
Secondly..... I was talking about hallow points vs hallow point with regards to my comments that you can get just as much stopping power out of a 9mm as you can from a .40 caliber. There certainly is an inflection points where you lose ft lbs of force when you decrease mass to a certain point. But, if you are look at the ballistics charts there really is not much diff between 9mm and .40 caliber. Thats why I said that if you need more stopping power and need to go up in caliber, then skip the .40 and jump all the way up to .45
Personally, if I can choose between a 115 gr Corbon 9mm +P that delivers 466 ft/lb at 1350fps vs. a 165 gr Corbon .40 that delivers 485 ft/lbs at 1150 fts then I'd be just fine with the 9mm (Gun weighs less, ammo weighs less, entire carry package weighs less, practice ammo is 10%-20% cheaper)
FYI: .45 Corbons are in the 573 ft/lb range (Thats why I say, if 9mm isnt enough then just go all the way up to .45)
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Okay, which do you perfer? (another chance to pick one or the other and tell why lol) If you only had two choices only..the 9mm or the .40 and nothing else, no .45, .380's..nothing, just one of the two..... Last night in the live blog the idea of .40 and 9mm came up. The man, Michael Bane, said that he is not a huge fan of the .40 in general and that he would take a 9mm with trick ammo. I've heard him say similar on the weekly podcasts. And I see his points and where he is coming from.
Well, I kinda almost feel the same, just with the two reversed. I'm not a huge 9mm fan in general, when I can have the .40 as a first choice. I do like 9mm's. I just like .40's better. In, fact all my pistols right are either 9mm's, .40's, or .22LR's. I guess for me I can shoot my .40's just as good or almost as good (if not it's super close always) as my 9mm's. Muzzle-flip/recoil for me is not much different. Yes the 9mm is not quite as much. But, if it is so close..then why not shoot a .40 with a bigger bullet and more ummth.. ? How do ya'll feel. If you can only choose one of the two? I must also say that I do carry 9mm sometimes and I love 9mm's too.
P.S. I would also like to give a special thanks for Michael Bane shooting his Glock 19 at Gunsite a couple of days ago. Hopefully, the spirit of Jeff Cooper isn't angry and all is fine now. **I am also glad that he didn't explode while shooting his Glock! ;D
I think it REALLY comes down to personal preference, just like revolver Vs. semi auto.
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I think it REALLY comes down to personal preference, just like revolver Vs. semi auto.
Yeah, we are really splitting hairs
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The idea that velocity is twice as important as mass is udder nonsense!
(http://www.mazeguy.net/animal/cow.gif) Does it give milk, too? (http://www.mazeguy.net/happy/hyper.gif)
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I suppose you could find a good 9mm bullet , a 147 of some kind, but I wont carry one. the .40 and .45 are what I carry.
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I suppose you could find a good 9mm bullet , a 147 of some kind, but I wont carry one. the .40 and .45 are what I carry.
Yeah the vast majority of ammo companies have a 9mm personal defense round in 147 gr
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I carry both, most of the time I carry my G26 because of its size. I also carry a XD 40, but it is harder to cover in warm weather. I can hit with both guns the same. For me it comes down to what I have and concealadility. As long as you are using the right ammo I like them both.
my .02
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I had a .40 compensated Glock and a 9 mm Glock. Never did like shooting the .40. Ended up selling it. It was like holding an m80 firecracker in your hand. Just seemed a lot more violent than the 9mm. Never could see any difference where the bullets landed. .40 cost a lot more. The math didn't add up. I agree that 9mm is worldwide. I said back in my military days that I would always stick with NATO stuff just in case the $hit hit the fan worldwide. I do own a .380 though ::).Whats up with that??? I just love shooting it. However, the ammo cost is comparable to .45. That sucks :'(
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40 no question...but then agin I live in a state where your limited to 10 rounds so the higher capcity of 9 mmm means nothing.
I do agree shooting a hot 40 out of a light weight gun is not fun, same with shooting a hot 9mm. I alaways prefer a steal or AL gun to a plastic gun. So I really don't notice the extra kick of the 40. Then again, If I had my CCW( fooking none issuing county) I would carry one of my delta eiltes...
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If those are the choices I would go with the 9. I had a Glock .40, but the recoil was weird. I felt more beat up after an afternoon of shooting than I did with my Peacemaker.
It was weird I was a good shot with a 9 and a .45, but with the .40 I couldn't hit a broadside of a barn even if I was standing inside of the barn.
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I have to say that I go with MB on the .40- I honestly don't see the advantage in it. 9mm has some good defense loads. When you go up to .40 it's got more punch, but where I've been looking it costs the same as .45 acp. Admittedly, 45 acp is my favorite round, but I subscribe to the previously stated theory that if you're going above 9mm in semi auto your best move is all the way...45 acp. (with apologies to Desert Eagle fans)
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I'd pick 9mm for 2 reasons, Ammo available pretty much everywhere in the world, and I'm more familiar with the 9 only having shot one .40 cal but owned several 9mm over the years. Generally I make do with what I have, So I buy .45 and .357 for "real" use and .22 for playing ;D
Just because of the availability of ammo and with my experience form my LEO days not a Glock, have what you want there's nothing wrong with that but you know what they say "Once burned twice shy." And before you get riled up that was when they first came out. I am a hard my to please.
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Hmm.. interesting results so far.. ::) Well, not really. I figured that most people would pick 9mm. It is very popular I know. I like it too and that's why I own some 9's. Kinda makes me feel better though too, because now I know that I will always be able to find some .40 ammo ;D. And that's a good thing 8).
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Im really suprised about the talk of the .40 being a hard to shoot round. I been shootin .40 since 89, It was a little harder to shoot in my G-22 but since I have my PT 140 its very easy . It has a lot to do with grip I believe. I have never shot it in an all metal pistol but I would expect it to be as mild as the .45 In the same pistol. And the 135 gr bullets are sweet .
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Yeah, I have never felt that the .40 was hard to shoot - even in polymer pistols.
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I'm with you guys.. I've always found the .40 easy to shoot, since day one.
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Notice there isn't much difference between .40 and 9mm
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/hazcater/Guns/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg)
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Now thats a great comparison...... also a great way to compare 147 gr vs 124 gr
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only that the wound channel of the .40 looks twice as wide as the 9mm ;D
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Ya missed one Haz ;D
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Yeah, I have seen that same picture many times before Hazcat, Neon Knight Anubis. And it does show that they are all kinda the same. However, let me ask you this. What if you go half way back from the 12in. line and draw an imaginary line at say the 4in. line, or even the 6in. line. Then which one would you rather choose, the .40 or the 9mm? The heavier .40, with a little bigger expansion, may just be enough to punch threw a would be attacker's leather jacket, sweet shirt, and regular shirt.. then still have enough ummpth.. to penetrate further into his vitials, etc. What if the bad guy is on drugs and a non-lethel shot doesn't work and you are aiming to make a lethal shot in order to save your life. What if that extra little bit of .40 size is just enough to hit an artery or other vitial, where as it might not have with a .40? Just something to think about... ::) What if you need a bigger hole in the first 4in. of a shot's placement????
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Whichever I shoot more accurately.
In these cases, I'll take the 9mm with monotonous regularity.
Handgun stopping power isn't even a concept supported by Evan Marshall, so, I'll take the most doses of felon repellant in the handiest package.
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Mine was more of a joke response HAWKFISH ;)
On a side note, that 357sig is a violent round isn't it? Gotta shoot one of those sometime.
As for my opinion on the subject, I say shoot/use what you can shoot well. While I don't question the ballistics of the 40 S&W and it is a good round (for a handgun round anyway), I don't like shooting it. I shoot both the 9mm and 45 more effectively than the 40 and therefore I choose those platforms, in the Glock and the 1911 respectively.
Having said that, I would like a 10mm (Glock 20/S&W 1006) but for sporting reasons.
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I found the recoil in the Glock 23 to be very ... "snappy." Not hard, not heavy, just.. very sharp and ... well.. snappy. I had trouble with it getting back on target for quick follow-ups. It was so bad for me, that I would find myself adjusting my grip between shots. I'm sure that's indicative of a poor grip to begin with, which I hope I've since corrected. Now having said all this, the Glock 23 is the only pistol I had that impression with. And since it was my first .40, it steered me back to 9mm and .45, where I've stayed ever since.
Since then, I've shot Sigs, Berettas, Taurus... really all kinds of .40s. That impression of snappy recoil hasn't been there. So maybe I gave up on the caliber too quickly.
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Just 40 and 9......................40 no question. I shoot out of non plastic guns. I have never had any problems with recoil with the 40. I have a couple of buddies, and we shoot our personal protection rounds alot. There is nothing like praticing with full power loads for realism. Don't get me wrong I pratcice with bunny fart loads also. When we are shooting our full power protection loads at some of our heaver steel targets, the 40's allways knock them down. The 9's seldom do. I know that is not scientific but it does tell me something.
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9mm or .40 S&W ??? I would have to say I would take the 9 with Corbon ammo. Almost 2 years ago the Marshal in a small town in our county had to shoot a shotgun weilding drunk that showed up at his soon-to-be ex-wife's apartmrnt. The drunk took 6 rounds of .40 cal in the stomach, front right hip and right lung (evidently the officer was looking at the shotgun and not the front sight) and was booked into the county jail about six weeks later after he was released from the hospital. In another case about 15 years ago a dirtbag that murdered a fellow LEO that was doing a follow up on a burglary case was put down with a 9mm HP round through his melon after a running gun fight through town. When I started in law enforcement the Mod. 66 was common place and the 586 or 686 was the one you wanted to carry with 158 gr. silvertips. Times have changed for sure but one thing remains the same, hitting your intended target with what you train with and shoot the best.
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9mm or .40 S&W ??? I would have to say I would take the 9 with Corbon ammo. Almost 2 years ago the Marshal in a small town in our county had to shoot a shotgun weilding drunk that showed up at his soon-to-be ex-wife's apartmrnt. The drunk took 6 rounds of .40 cal in the stomach, front right hip and right lung (evidently the officer was looking at the shotgun and not the front sight) and was booked into the county jail about six weeks later after he was released from the hospital. In another case about 15 years ago a dirtbag that murdered a fellow LEO that was doing a follow up on a burglary case was put down with a 9mm HP round through his melon after a running gun fight through town. When I started in law enforcement the Mod. 66 was common place and the 586 or 686 was the one you wanted to carry with 158 gr. silvertips. Times have changed for sure but one thing remains the same, hitting your intended target with what you train with and shoot the best.
I'm don't have a dog in this fight as I shoot .45 or .357 by choice or whatever I'm handed otherwise, but I have to point out that 6 .500 S&W rounds to the stomache will not be as immidiatly effective as 1 .380 to the head. This example says less about the effectivness of the rounds than it does about the training of the Officers involved.
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Just had to be 9mm or .40 S&W could not even think about my beloved 1911 or 45 XD Tactical.............. Just 9mm or 40 cal. :'(
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I'm don't have a dog in this fight as I shoot .45 or .357 by choice or whatever I'm handed otherwise, but I have to point out that 6 .500 S&W rounds to the stomache will not be as immidiatly effective as 1 .380 to the head. This example says less about the effectivness of the rounds than it does about the training of the Officers involved.
Yes I do agree with that. I have had limited expirence with .40 and have spent more time working with 9mm .357 and .45 ACP. I would have assumed that 6 .40 caliber holes would have done more damage than it did, but in this case it just wasn't this guys time to go, he is doing 10 years in prison first.
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You guys do know that you can get +P in 40s&w also don't you? http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#40sw I have some of this, and bellive me you don't want to be on the recieving end of any of this stuff!!!
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You guys do know that you can get +P in 40s&w also don't you? http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#40sw I have some of this, and bellive me you don't want to be on the recieving end of any of this stuff!!!
Maybe it's just me, but I don't want to "be on the recieving end" of a .22 short. ;D
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Maybe it's just me, but I don't want to "be on the recieving end" of a .22 short. ;D
No me either not even a .22 CB cap !!!
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Maybe it's just me, but I don't want to "be on the recieving end" of a .22 short. ;D
You know, I have too agree with you there! ;)
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Having said that, I would like a 10mm (Glock 20/S&W 1006) but for sporting reasons.
That's one scene I want to write. Character pulls out a Glock 20 with a 6 inch barrel and a +2 floorplate.
What's that?
My huntin' rig.
Whatcha huntin'?
Violent felons.
;D
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Maybe it's just me, but I don't want to "be on the recieving end" of a .22 short. ;D
Lot's of great posts here...all civil too! I'm with you Tom...I don't want a .22 short inside me! With the 22 in mind...LEO friends tell me the 22 richochets around causing extensive damage inside the body cavity. With that a caveat...small bullet...small initial impact so additional anti-fellon repellant must be added immediately to stop the show. But I was impressed...a couple of the guys said 22's are/can be more deadly than a larger round because they bounce around. The bigger the hole the quicker they bleed out and shock/blunt trauma has a lot to do with stopping an engagement so....I don't carry a 22 despite the ultimate lethality!
I love the 10MM high power, 45, 357, 40, .38 & 9....my opinion (take it for what it's worth), since I carry in urban environments is to first think of the impact to bystanders. Worst thing I'd ever want to happen is to hurt a child....so shot placement is King and premium bullets that stay in the target are Queen. The 10MM stays home...except on trips through the country...because I shoot the "old timey" full power loads available from Doubletap ammo.
But thinking bystander safety, my safety and shock value (in that order)....what would ya'll think about a concealable 5.7 x 28 if one existed? I've got a Five SeveN and it's the same size as my 1911's...a bit large for most concealed carry....but very good about not penetrating walls while getting the job done quickly on target. And...recoil is light so shot placement is better for initial and followup shots (2 to the body & 1 to the head). It's what I keep in the nightstand so I don't have to worry so much about penetrating walls and hitting my children if I'm required to engage an intruder.
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Hmm.. concealable 5.7 x 28.. I dunno. Interesting question. I think I would have to see the ballistics and actually do my own shooting test to decide. I wouldn't immediently rule it out.
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Hmm.. concealable 5.7 x 28.. I dunno. Interesting question. I think I would have to see the ballistics and actually do my own shooting test to decide. I wouldn't immediently rule it out.
I agree, unless you are using specialized ammo not available to the public the ballistics are not quite as good as a .22 Hornet. I'd go with a larger caliber and expanding bullet.
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I've been issued the 38, the 45, and the 9.
The nine is fine. Have stopped several large, agressive dogs w my nine minimeter.
The city issues the 9, the county the 40, the state the 357 in Glocks. State is switching to the M&P357. The 45, mostly in 1911s, is a popular option w the city.
Over the last 10 yrs, the 9 has been stopping as well/better as the rest. The most multiple hit failures to stop have come from the 40 (none w the 9/45). The most extreme failure to stop w one shot COM was from a 45. The 9 has had no problem stopping through the normal tactical barriers (furniture, interior doors/walls, auto glass, etc). Go figure. I'm sure many have war stories that show the flip side. C'est la guerre.
All the ammo companies can give you 9mm ammo (std and +P) that penetrates enough and expands reliably.
Not concerned w energy; more on that end means more on my end too. Not concerned w capacity; it's gonna be over one way or another before I get past six. Know of plenty of shootings where more than 6 didn't do the job, but none where six couldn't do the job.
More (bigger, heavier, faster) is better. If you can do more w more, have at it. I can do more w less.
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"More (bigger, heavier, faster) is better. If you can do more w more, have at it. I can do more w less." Umm.. I like that MikeO. Unique way of putting it. :)
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More weight (like 127 grains) and more velocity (like 1200 plus) means more effectiveness for the Nine.
Then again, the ISP did quite well with moderate weight (115 grains) at 1350 fps.
It's why guys with .45's don't go into action with "softball" rounds at under 700 fps or 185 grains.
More weight. More velocity. More better.
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MikeO, Looks like an Airforce patch., Always knew you guys were smart, bigger is better. If it starts with a 4 I shoot it. Bless you if you can do more with a 9mm. ;D
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MikeO, Looks like an Airforce patch., Always knew you guys were smart, bigger is better. If it starts with a 4 I shoot it. Bless you if you can do more with a 9mm. ;D
Yeah, but being Airforce he has to remove his airforce gloves (hands in pockets) before he can draw! ;)
;D
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Yeah, but being Airforce he has to remove his airforce gloves (hands in pockets) before he can draw! ;)
;D
You can't even BE a Marine unless you can shoot, but I still carry a .45
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Im tryin to give some props to the fly guy and yall are bashin. Just because you know your wrong with your little .380 and your weak .357 (kidding) I just dont go for the hi cap argument for the 9 nor the shot placement argument. I have read too many real life recounts of the 9 not getting the job done. Sure, if under extreme pressure you can shoot the BG in the face, God bless you.
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Im tryin to give some props to the fly guy and yall are bashin. Just because you know your wrong with your little .380 and your weak .357 (kidding) I just dont go for the hi cap argument for the 9 nor the shot placement argument. I have read too many real life recounts of the 9 not getting the job done. Sure, if under extreme pressure you can shoot the BG in the face, God bless you.
Very true..... if that was the end all be all, then .22 lr or .22 mag or .17 Mach 2 would be plenty.
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I have read too many real life recounts of the 9 not getting the job done. Sure, if under extreme pressure you can shoot the BG in the face, God bless you.
All those stories seem to date back to the dark ages before police adopted good 9mm ammunition. Remember, there was a space of a whole generation where ammo companies didn't even dare produce 9mm ammunition to original 1908 specifications because of all the pot metal souvenirs brought home by GI's who killed the Nazis who had them.
Puny velocity ball, peripheral hits, and only one out of 28 rounds hitting the target (the Miami gunfight) are poor reasons to base caliber choice upon.
I also remember an incident being related where a PCP crazed perpetrator, who took two twelve gauge slugs to bring down, this in addition to 33 Jacketed Soft Point rounds.
Jacketed Soft Points were ditched by the Illinois State Police almost immediately for 9mm hollowpoints loaded to proper velocity - 1300 or so fps. As well, the NYPD 127 grain +P Gold Dot has an excellent track record.
There hasn't been news of a bad guy sucking up 10 or more rounds from one shooter. The closest we have is a 150 pound cougar in Chicago, who took 18 shots from a half dozen officers, all firing in unison, and there's no telling how long that wave of gunfire lasted, except that no cops were observed to have been stuck in the kitty's teeth.
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All those stories seem to date back to the dark ages before police adopted good 9mm ammunition. Remember, there was a space of a whole generation where ammo companies didn't even dare produce 9mm ammunition to original 1908 specifications because of all the pot metal souvenirs brought home by GI's who killed the Nazis who had them.
Puny velocity ball, peripheral hits, and only one out of 28 rounds hitting the target (the Miami gunfight) are poor reasons to base caliber choice upon.
I also remember an incident being related where a PCP crazed perpetrator, who took two twelve gauge slugs to bring down, this in addition to 33 Jacketed Soft Point rounds.
Jacketed Soft Points were ditched by the Illinois State Police almost immediately for 9mm hollowpoints loaded to proper velocity - 1300 or so fps. As well, the NYPD 127 grain +P Gold Dot has an excellent track record.
There hasn't been news of a bad guy sucking up 10 or more rounds from one shooter. The closest we have is a 150 pound cougar in Chicago, who took 18 shots from a half dozen officers, all firing in unison, and there's no telling how long that wave of gunfire lasted, except that no cops were observed to have been stuck in the kitty's teeth.
I have to agree about the 9mm getting a bad rap becuase of crap ammo, seems like no one thought about improving any pistol ammo till the late 80's early 90's. you had guys improving CALIBER, 44 mag, 41mag, 10 mm etc. but they don't seem to have given much attention to the projectile itself. You did not get much REAL improvement in rifle ammo till fairly recently as well, starting with the Barnes X - bullet.
As for the Air Force, As far as I know their smallest COMBAT fire arm (as opposed to security equipment, night sticks and AR's etc) is the 30mm Gatling on the A 10 , Is there any one here who thinks 30mm would NOT be enough for personal defense ?
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As for the Air Force, As far as I know their smallest COMBAT fire arm (as opposed to security equipment, night sticks and AR's etc) is the 30mm Gatling on the A 10 , Is there any one here who thinks 30mm would NOT be enough for personal defense ?
We have 20mm cannons in AC too, as well as .50/7.62/5.56 MGs/gats in choppers.
Was never issued a nightstick, had to make do w a big flashlight or collapsable baton. Got to use the much bigger "riot" stick on some anti-nuke nuts once; that was fun.
Back in the day I worked joint town patrols w Army MPs. We had a loaded .38 and chem spray, they had an unloaded .45 and a wooden nightstick. I guess somebody thought it all balanced out... ;)
Last year Congress directed the services get together for another shot at a joint pistol program. That was after they shot down the AFFH (Air Force Future Handgun) for the second time. I hear the USAF and USMC want a new 45, the Army is still trying to decide what the FHS (Future Handgun System) will look like in what caliber.
Last time (M1911A1 to M9) it only took 8 yrs to get it done (78 - 85). We've only been kicking it (M9 to SOF-CP, FHS, JCP, CP, AFH, AFFH) around for about 4 yrs now. My fave of the contenders (have tried the FNP45, M&P45, G21/30SF, HK45/HK45c, P220 Combat, Px4) is the HK45/HK45C to replace the M9/M11. Both have threaded bbls options for the ninjoperators, and the 10 round mags work in the compact (my fave of the two).
Have been packing an HK45C for about a week now, and it's wundebar! Not saying that cuzz another USAF vet is a honcho at HK now either. ;D
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Well, in the strange event it was only between .40 S&W and 9MM, unless I was where .40 ammo was impossible to find, I'd choose the .40's Bigger bullet. But thankfully I ain't limited to only two choices and I can choose my .45 ACP, .357 Mag, and .45 Colt.
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CAN WE JUST TAKE THE 40 S&W CASE, NECK IT DOWN AND PLUG IT UP WITH A 9MM HOLLOW POINT, AND THEN DECLARE MY 357 SIG THE WINNER?
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umm.. you could but then it wouldn't be a 9mm or a .40 s&w... ::)
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I would have to say the .40. I would prefer the 10mm but ammo is hard to come by so the 10mm's little brother the .40 is the next best thing.
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I like shooting the .357 Sig in the little bitty Glocks...it causes the fillings to fall out of my teeth...
Michael B
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Yeah, I had a buddy that I worked with that had a G33 (baby .357 sig Glock) and the recoil was stouter than my G27 (baby .40 Glock). After shooting my .40 he wished that he had gotten the .40 because the recoil wasn't as bad. And the G27 recoil was not much more than the small G26 9mm.
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I shoot 9mm because I can afford to shoot it often and become more proficient w/ my pistol o' choice.
If money wasn't an issue, I'd go .45ACP.
.40S&W is of no use to me.
-JT
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I shoot 9mm because I can afford to shoot it often and become more proficient w/ my pistol o' choice.
If money wasn't an issue, I'd go .45ACP.
.40S&W is of no use to me.
-JT
Quoted for Truth.
Hail the Big C, may the stars align soon. ;D
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I like shooting the .357 Sig in the little bitty Glocks...it causes the fillings to fall out of my teeth...
Michael B
Then dont shoot a ported XD in 357. It will just make you teeth fall out. I know my brother has one and it is the LOUDEST handgun I have ever handled.
That said I carry a 40 as I am used to it more than my 9. I would carry a 45 but want something more for CCW and my dress. Otherwise I would carry my GB. 18+1 rds of good 9mm HP with a fixed 5" would do the trick!!
IMHO, shoot both and see which one you like better. Then buy some good HP to load it with.
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9mm
Why? It's what I've got right now.
Fear the man with one gun (pistol in this case)...he knows how to use it.
I don't buy all the B.S. about the .40's great superiority to the 9mm with respect to knockdown power. More critters (two and four-legged) have been killed with a .22 LR than anything on earth. Yes, I know, it is about stopping power, not lethality, but really? If 18 rounds of 9mm isn't going to stop what is attacking me, I need an archangel, not a pistol.
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I like the 9mm over the 40 S&W, but my experience is with Hi-Powers not Glocks. I can shoot more accurately and faster with my 9mm than my 40 Hi-Power. Also my 40 bites my tigger finger.
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Shot placement, repeat, consistent shot placement.
Whether a .380, 9mm, 40, or .45, 22lr for what its worth,..
It has to hit the target.
A double/ triple tap of Cor Bon .380, vs. 1 shot with a .45 as long as there in the same group, yields the same result.
Center mass.
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I am not a fan of the 357 sig. The ammo is hard to find and costs to much, would rather carry a 10mm or 40 S&W.