The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: warhawke on February 28, 2012, 08:01:58 PM
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I read MB's blog about the .40 S&W and decided to weigh in on my blog so I have included a link.
I'm not trying to dis Mike, I like Mike and respect his opinions, but I have been hearing a lot on this subject recently and some of it is from outright crackheads.
http://warhawkeishere.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/in-defense-of-the-40-sw/ (http://warhawkeishere.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/in-defense-of-the-40-sw/)
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I just about spewed into my keyboard, and have only gotten through the first 2 or 3 paragraphs.......
Army of Darkness plug - check
Jurassic Park plug - check
I dig you mang!
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Ironically, Warhawke, I agree with everything you say!
It's sort of, "You pays your money and you takes your chances." There was a big noise outside my house a couple of nights ago, and I went straight to the 12 gauge...did not pass go, did not collect $200. It was a raccoon, so it got a pass, but handguns do suck and there are no magic bullets
I think in the end you make your bet based on your own beliefs...my plan is lots of bullets...your mileage may very.
VERY good post, though!
Michael B
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Ah the ol' 9mm vs. 40 S&W thread,....
I bought my first semi auto handgun in the early 90's...A S&W Model 411 in .40....Yes it had the Clintonista mag disconnect...However, I have noticed history and trends,, and offer a few observations regardless of brand.
The Glock 22 is still one of the hottest sellers on the pistol market. (It's .40)
The M&P line of .40 has been incorporated in too many LEO/SHP, etc,.. agencies to count.
The .40 incorporates a high capacity platform with ballistics better than a 9mm (still a shortened down .38),...
I also own a couple of 9's,...as ammo had to catch up to get better over the years. But so did the .380 and even the .327.
Regardless, (and the .45 crowd, of which I own a couple also aside),....there are more .40's in LE agencies than 9's....
For those that cannot afford a quiver of a 9 this day, or a .45 that day, or a .40 on Sunday, or a .357 on Tues,..the .40 was designed specifically because it addressed the shortcomings of a 9mm....
Too many criminals in prison BRAG about there gunshot scars with a 9....
The same cannot be said about the .40....(reminder,,,I own and practice with a multitude of calibers).
and I am reminded of the old addage:
"Professionals argue tactics. -- Amateurs argue caliber."
Anonymous
P.S. My leetle Kel-Tec P3AT is a bad momma-jomma at close range also....
"Amateurs train until they get it right, professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. If you've seen police qualifications, you know this is false. Amateurs train until they get it right, professionals train no more than they are paid to."
E. Charles
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"You pays your money and you takes your chances."
Yep, one size does not fit all. While it is a caliber issue, it's really more of a gun issue. Which gun will serve best the expected encounter?
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I more or less agree with MB, ( especially about the "good post" part )
I posted a comment to say that for individuals, regardless of the technical bs they use to dress it up, the ultimate deciding factor will be personal preference.
The thing that makes any bullet effective is hits, so the best option is to practice with what you've got.
Warhawk makes the point in his first paragraph that no matter what pistol you use it is a compromise so there is no "best" pistol caliber.
We've all heard the story about the old Lady who killed a bear with a .22, it wasn't the best choice, but, she made do with what she had, and only comes with practice.
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F#%K it! I am switching to a one man mortar team. ;D I will be able to take out a bear, a house or a vehicle. I watch my kids do it all the time on "Battlefield 3" on Playstation. And I am going to get a Crossbreed holster that fits the mortar. LOL
I like all rounds above .380. But even a .22 serves a purpose. Carry what you can handle. As for me and my house, I will carry a .45 ACP. May have to sell the Jeep to get more ammo, but I will survive.
PS: Great article Warhawke. Sorry Mr. Bane, I did not read the blog yet.
PSS: Hope you never get a chronic, arthritic condition of the humor us bone.
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When you are within spiting distance of a tragedy like the school shooting in Chardon Ohio you get too much info too quickly! I haven't heard anything to the contrary, but I haven't listened too closely, so I will say, the last I heard, that 3 young lives were taken by a shooter with a .22!!! Enough said.
God Bless them and their families,
Richard
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I carry 40 in my p250 for CC. I also have a 9mm kit for cheap practicing.
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What matters isn't how many died after being shot with any caliber, but how soon they were stopped after getting shot.
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I wrote the piece that MB quoted so it shouldn't be hard to see which side I come down on... But this is an excerpt to a comment I made on one of the Mad Ogre's pro .40 posts...
In my response to your last post I conceded that if my choice is between a gun and 2 mags I want a .40. But if my choice is involves a center-fire training budget, you can’t beat a 9mm.
As for how many rounds it actually takes, the best collection of data I have been able to find is at http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866.
Average number of rounds until incapacitation
9mm Luger = 2.45
.40 S&W = 2.36
.45 ACP = 2.08
And unless you can tell me how to fire .08 of a round… Those all equal 3.
That gives a .90% accurate shooter with a 1911, 2 stops; with a .40, 4 stops; and with a 9mm, 5 stops.
I really do like debates and there may not be a better gun debate than caliber for the following reasons…
* There is a bunch of data that can be quoted
* There are so many variables at play that nearly all of the data is refutable based on the scenario
* It is a decision we bet our life on
Here are the 3 main facts though…
1) All Pistol Calibers SUCK! If you need a gun you want a long gun.
2) All Guns are better than harsh words or a sharp stick
3) All pistols/calibers are a collection of compromises
You need to decide that compromises you are willing to make.
I doubt you will find anyone on the anti-forty side that is truely anti-forty, we are all just pro something else because we believe it to be a better set of compromises.
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What matters isn't how many died after being shot with any caliber, but how soon they were stopped after getting shot.
Solus brings up a very good point.
In a SD situation the fact that your attacker died is considered a miserable fail if it happens 2 days after he beat you to death.
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Solus brings up a very good point.
In a SD situation the fact that your attacker died is considered a miserable fail if it happens 2 days after he beat you to death.
It's a fail if your attacker dies 20 seconds after you do.
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There are two things I tell my students in regard to handgun selection for SD:
1) Carry the largest caliber that you can consistently hit with and are comfortable carrying.
2) The #1 best handgun for self-defense is the one you'll carry EVERY day. A .22 in your pocket is a FAR more effective SD tool than a .500 S&W Magnum at home in the safe.
Another poster made a comment about the number of LE agencies carrying .40's. In my home county, our S.O. recently switched from S&W M&P's in .45acp to M&P's in .40. When I asked why, I was told that the "mission perameter" for their sidearms has changed. The .40 allows the deputy more rounds to use in fighting his way back to the squad car to access his rifle. To me, that sounds like a long-winded way of saying "handguns suck".
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I would posit that those who are walking around baring scars from 9mms were shot with FMJs and most likely in extremities. Shot placement is key and always use a good hollow point.
Hell, Tex Grebner took a .45acp and stayed mobile. I hope his shot placement is better next time.
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There are two things I tell my students in regard to handgun selection for SD:
1) Carry the largest caliber that you can consistently hit with and are comfortable carrying.
2) The #1 best handgun for self-defense is the one you'll carry EVERY day. A .22 in your pocket is a FAR more effective SD tool than a .500 S&W Magnum at home in the safe.
Another poster made a comment about the number of LE agencies carrying .40's. In my home county, our S.O. recently switched from S&W M&P's in .45acp to M&P's in .40. When I asked why, I was told that the "mission perameter" for their sidearms has changed. The .40 allows the deputy more rounds to use in fighting his way back to the squad car to access his rifle. To me, that sounds like a long-winded way of saying "handguns suck".
Just ask Clint Smith. ;) ;D
Any given day, any given thing can go wrong...or right.
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Any additional info available on the "9mm to the head?"
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Bounced off his Unibrow.
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Mr. Unibrow, looks like a "big boy",......thick Neanderthal like skull too....9mm probably just made him mad...
I am glad 9's have a high capacity, if I saw Mr. Unibrow in my house at 3am, it would take 1 17rd mag and most of another, and he would have to chase me, as I would be getting my Garand right quick..... :o
As posted what is with you, and works for you, is the most important. My leetle P3AT, would only make someone like Mr. Unibrow really mad, but it would slow him down just enough to where I can run him over in my truck....
twice..
;D
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Any additional info available on the "9mm to the head?"
ARRGGHH !
My Google - Fu is strong ! ;D
Here's the link to the original post.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=5252.0
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ARRGGHH !
My Google - Fu is strong ! ;D
Here's the link to the original post.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=5252.0
Bless you, Tom.....for taking up my slack. ;D
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Bless you, Tom.....for taking up my slack. ;D
We can always count on our future POTUS to have our 6. ;D
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Ahhh, years ago the big debate was 9mm versus 45 ACP. Now we have 9mm versus 40 S&W. What next? 9mm versus 9mm? Keep it up guys, this has been a fun read. Don't stop now I'm looking forward to a continuation.
Pecos
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Ahhh, years ago the big debate was 9mm versus 45 ACP. Now we have 9mm versus 40 S&W. What next? 9mm versus 9mm? Keep it up guys, this has been a fun read. Don't stop now I'm looking forward to a continuation.
Pecos
Dueling NAA .22's anyone??
;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ahhh, years ago the big debate was 9mm versus 45 ACP. Now we have 9mm versus 40 S&W. What next? 9mm versus 9mm? Keep it up guys, this has been a fun read. Don't stop now I'm looking forward to a continuation.
Pecos
Actually this run all got started on a purely anti-40 podcast where the podcaster/trainer settled on 45.
NC Buckeye
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Dueling NAA .22's anyone??
;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
.22lr - .17M2 - .17HMR can be fun
NC Buckeye
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But, but,....wait,..there's more.....
no one brought up the 9mm +p or +p+ aspects....
::)
Still a cut down .38......
;D
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LOL
You guys are always good for a chuckle. I must say people certainly do seem to have quite a few axes to grind when someone picks on their favorite caliber. I guess it provides us with endless discussion, and what greater purpose does an internet forum serve except to needlessly and constantly debate something of little imortance. I suppose if it was important enough we wouldn't have enough time to talk about it.
Just to weigh in for debates sake, my favorite bullet is a 240gr Fiocchi Extreme 44 magnum. Dent that primer with a 6" Smith and Wesson Model 29-7 and the erruption of combusting powder and extreme gas pressures force controlled chaos onto your target with impunity and a dazzling display of lights and sounds that would persuade even the most augean of us to persue other endeavors.
That said I carry 9x19, 45ACP and .357 magnum on days ending in Y and usually not at the same time. Keep up the fantastic posts!!!
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Good one Peg! Let's keep this going! Maybe the "pundits" will catch on maybe not.
Pecos
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9 X 19 is a POS.
9X18 is the way to go . ;D
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9 X 19 is a POS.
9X18 is the way to go . ;D
The ol' Makarov's are available for less than $200....
Good call....just stock up on ammo while it's cheap(er).....Just like the Tokarev's.....ask Haz or deepwater,...the damn Tok's are a uber ugly, uber reliable cheap pistol designed to work in any condition.
Sadly many Mak's were destryoed by the Euro "anti-gun" hysteria, but they made so many, they are still available....
J&G has them at a bargain....C&R eligible
http://www.jgsales.com/yugo-tokarev-m57-tt,-7.62x25-m-57-pistol.-gunsmith-special.-p-6197.html
http://www.makarov.com/makpics.html
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They will be flooding the market now, along with upgrading the AK the Russians plan on replacing the Mak.
I think they should just go with the CZ 82/83, people trained on the Mak will be comfortable with it, and it holds twice as many rounds.
And J&G will sell them cheap in that kind of volume ;D
http://www.jgsales.com/cz-82-czech-9x18-makarov-military-pistol,-good-to-very-good-condition,-one-mag.-c-r.-p-3050.html
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They will be flooding the market now, along with upgrading the AK the Russians plan on replacing the Mak.
I think they should just go with the CZ 82/83, people trained on the Mak will be comfortable with it, and it holds twice as many rounds.
And J&G will sell them cheap in that kind of volume ;D
http://www.jgsales.com/cz-82-czech-9x18-makarov-military-pistol,-good-to-very-good-condition,-one-mag.-c-r.-p-3050.html
Slight thread drift....:o
This is clear as mud. Not knowing the ins and outs of the C&R license, (is it an 01 license?) can someone in CA buy this or not.
The 82 isn't on their "approved" list so do our CA detainees hostages brothers get to own one or not?
From Tom's link:
(This gun is C&R eligible and can ship to 01 FFL holders in CA, but you must buy the California package at $10.00 more with a 9rd mag. We do not ship handguns to C&R holders in CA.)
ATTENTION: Firearms ONLY ship to an FFL holder. If you do not have an FFL (Federal Firearms License) then you must find one in your area to do the transfer for you, and you must enter their address as the shipping address on your order. Due to FedEx and UPS requirements, handguns ship separately from ammunition via 2 day delivery.
ATTENTION: California residents please check the California Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale to see if this gun is legal to purchase.
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9 X 19 is a POS.
9X18 is the way to go . ;D
Poo. 9x21
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This is clear as mud. Not knowing the ins and outs of the C&R license, (is it an 01 license?) can someone in CA buy this or not.
California? Sorry, you're screwed.
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California? Sorry, you're screwed.
Forget it, C&R, FFL, whatever.....I defer to above post...
But aren't you in "normal" AZ kmitch?
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Forget it, C&R, FFL, whatever.....I defer to above post...
But aren't you in "normal" AZ kmitch?
Yes, thank God. When I want to see the only 3 people I give a hoot about in CA, I always offer to meet halfway in Yuma or Bullhead City.
Bastidges never take me up on it though.
What puzzled me was this line from J&G:
This gun is C&R eligible and can ship to 01 FFL holders in CA, but you must buy the California package at $10.00 more with a 9rd mag.
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It probably has a blocked Mag well that only accepts single stack mags.
Might as well get a Makarov, basically the same gun but slimmer since it is designed as a single stack.
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Hey Peg! a full page of posts and they still didn't catch on to your NAA post! Ain't life grand?
Pecos
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Hey Peg! a full page of posts and they still didn't catch on to your NAA post! Ain't life grand?
Pecos
Just ignored it.
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Hey Peg! a full page of posts and they still didn't catch on to your NAA post! Ain't life grand?
Pecos
I saw it too but my smallest caliber is spitwads and a drinking straw...the NAA doesn't stand a chance with nuclear tipped, hollowpoint, super-magnifico spitwads from the former Soviet Republic of SchmuckMassaStanLaurel...
;)
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9 x 23...powerful, perfect in a 1911 platform, a straight-wall case, solving the problem of he slightly tapered .38 Super case, one of those rounds like the .38 Special and the .44 Special, where every relad I tried shot well, lots of el cheapo 9mm Largo for practice..and a SPECTACULAR FAILURE! LOL!
I say again...this is a "fashion" question...carry the caliber you like and adjust your tactics accordingly. Heck, if you whip out that little N.A.A., have some sort of plan to offset it's (numerous) shortcomings! Carry 2...or 3...or get the .22 Magnum version! LOL!
I try very hard to avoid the whole "best" discussion, but It's important to explain my own choices. That is, of course, when I have logical reasons!
Michael B
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Heck, I've never owned a 9mm anything.......
I guess the closest in caliber is my Colt .380 (9mm 'short'). Actually, the only real reason I own a .40 caliber is that they didn't have the Glock in .45...........
When not packing the 1911 in .45, I carry the G27 in .40......simply because it is the next closest thing in caliber, bullet weight, and velocity to my normal .45.
8)
*And for the record, the NAA comment wasn't a swipe or poke at anyone, past or present.... I just had this sudden vision of Yosemite Sam blazin' away with a pair of mini 22's......... my mind works funny........
;)
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Can anyone remember the 9mm vs .357 mag. debate ? ;D
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My comment about the nuclear tipped, hollowpoint, super-magnifico spitwads from the former Soviet Republic of SchmuckMassaStanLaurel was completely serious Pegleg!
Spitwads at three meters....any takers?
that's about 9 feet plus a skinch as I recall!
:D
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Can anyone remember the 9mm vs .357 mag. debate ? ;D
That's just silliness!
8)
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My comment about the nuclear tipped, hollowpoint, super-magnifico spitwads from the former Soviet Republic of SchmuckMassaStanLaurel was completely serious Pegleg!
Spitwads at three meters....any takers?
that's about 9 feet plus a skinch as I recall!
:D
Since this has descended into total madness (madness, I say!!!).... I'll see your spitwads and raise you................
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Now you're being silly Peg! You don't stand a chance!
Did you not see that mine are NUCULAR!
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Now you're being silly Peg! You don't stand a chance!
Did you not see that mine are NUCULAR!
I can fire from outside your effective range. ;)
And definitely upwind. :P
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Somebody finally got it, thanks, Michael.
Peg if you and Tim are going to duel it out with nuclear spitwads I want to know the time and place! That's one I really want to see!
Pecos
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I'll challenge with Gunther's Tacticool, Worlds Meanest Slingshot....
My Ninja training will be complete with this needed device..... 8)
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My comment about the nuclear tipped, hollowpoint, super-magnifico spitwads from the former Soviet Republic of SchmuckMassaStanLaurel was completely serious Pegleg!
Spitwads at three meters....any takers?
that's about 9 feet plus a skinch as I recall!
:D
Since this has descended into total madness (madness, I say!!!).... I'll see your spitwads and raise you................
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Bring it on.
Anytime, Any place.
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In my best French accent, "I fart in your general direction."
Somebody finally got it, thanks, Michael.
Peg if you and Tim are going to duel it out with nuclear spitwads I want to know the time and place! That's one I really want to see!
Pecos
I'll send you an engraved invitation.