The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Reloading => Topic started by: PegLeg45 on March 20, 2012, 02:49:38 PM
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I believe several folks have posted this on the forum in the past, but since I have just run in to this this week, I thought I'd post it along with pictures.
Back at Christmas, I bought a couple of boxes of Federal 230gr FMJ "Champion" ammo at Wal-Mart. This past week, I bought another box with the same markings and such. When I got home, I noticed that there was a slight difference in the sizes of the two boxes, even though the product number and bullet info were the same. The newer box was bigger and felt like the old "standard' 50 count box of pistol ammo. I figured the company had just used the smaller packaging to save costs or something.
So.... just for giggles, I opened both boxed and noticed the major difference....... the ammo in the smaller box used small pistol primers (like in 9mm) and the rounds in the larger (standard) box had the normal large pistol primers.
I just wanted to post another heads-up for those that reload, who might pick up range brass. Getting the two cases mixed up in a batch might cause problems for a reloading machine de-capping die.
I have included photos below to show the side-by-side comparison.
The two boxes one on the other:
(http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd352/pegleg45/100_1820.jpg)
The end labels:
(http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd352/pegleg45/100_1821.jpg)
The sides....(note the warning about comps and ported barrels...and not for LEO use on the larger box ??):
(http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd352/pegleg45/100_1822.jpg)
In the trays:
(http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd352/pegleg45/100_1825.jpg)
Side-by-side close-up:
(http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd352/pegleg45/100_1835.jpg)
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What, if any affect will the smaller primer have on ignition and other characteristics?
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Shouldn't matter in the function...at least I wouldn't think it would. I'm gonna see shortly. I think I only have two boxes of the small primer ammo....so it will be shot up soon and the cases done away with. I will look closer at the boxes before purchases in the future. Too much aggravation to keep them separate.
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Performance wise it won't make any difference. Money wise the ammo company will save a little on the cost. They will reduce there primer inventory by only useing small primers.
On the reloading side it will be a pain in the ass. I have started checking all my range p/u .45 auto brass looking for small cases primers. So far there only have been a few but I'm sure there will be more and more.
they will
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The smaller primers are usually "non Toxic" .
Most company's note that on the head stamp.
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Actually it can make a big difference.
There is something around 30% less "spitz'n and spark'n" with small primers than with larger. Also the flash hole is smaller exposing less of the powder to the initial ignition. In addition, there is a problem with the smaller primers backing out in the larger cases so Federal has been crimping them.
The current issue (March/April 2012) of Front Sight from USPSA has a timely article by Guy Neil on the topic. (sorry not available on-line.)
Reloaders might consider enlarging the flash hole. And they definitely need to do separate load development for small primer cases and not assume the loads with large primer are okay.
As for me, they go in the recycle bin.
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Not being a reloader, I would think they could be a huge problem if you were to accidentally try and press a lpp into the smaller hole. Wouldn't it potentially ignite the larger primer and make a "bang"!
I wouldn't want to hear a "bang" in the presence of gun powder and primers on my bench...
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Timothy, I have run into a lot of .45 cases w/spp! One of the most important rules of reloading that has been drilled into me is..."If you have to use more pressure than normal during any reloading operation STOP!!! Check to see if something is wrong and correct it if possible." With my Dillon 550 I can tell right away if the case is for spp. It even has a different feel, to me, than a pp w/crimp. It might not work that way for everyone.
FWIW
Richard
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The small pistol primers take up less space in the case so that Federal can use a smaller box! Saves on packaging and transportation costs.
Actually I ran across this a couple years ago with some CCI cases. Called CCI and was told they were using these in some target ammo but had no future plans to do so. Haven't seen any lately but get the question occasionally. Nobody seems to notice till they try to reload them. Segregate them if you want or turn them into scrape brass. No big deal.
Pecos
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The small pistol primers take up less space in the case so that Federal can use a smaller box! Saves on packaging and transportation costs.
Actually I ran across this a couple years ago with some CCI cases. Called CCI and was told they were using these in some target ammo but had no future plans to do so. Haven't seen any lately but get the question occasionally. Nobody seems to notice till they try to reload them. Segregate them if you want or turn them into scrape brass. No big deal.
Pecos
If you weren't joking, Pecos, it's just not true. The outside case dimension must stay exactly the same or the round won't chamber properly.
The smaller box size was due to the use of a cartridge tray with thinner walls.
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If you weren't joking, Pecos, it's just not true. The outside case dimension must stay exactly the same or the round won't chamber properly.
The smaller box size was due to the use of a cartridge tray with thinner walls.
I assumed he was being sarcastic...when is Marshal going to invent the sarcasm emoticon?
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I assumed he was being sarcastic...when is Marshal going to invent the sarcasm emoticon?
I figured he must be too...but there wasn't any kind of Smiley three and I thought it couldn't hurt to point it out...just in case for anyone who might not know.....and now I feel dumb for thinking someone here might not understand that....but maybe we have a real novice lurker around...yeah..that's it...I said it for all the rookie lurkers here ;D ;D
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I figured he must be too...but there wasn't any kind of Smiley three and I thought it couldn't hurt to point it out...just in case for anyone who might not know.....and now I feel dumb for thinking someone here might not understand that....but maybe we have a real novice lurker around...yeah..that's it...I said it for all the rookie lurkers here ;D ;D
Dude, We DO have some members who are really new to shooting and may not realize these things.
Wasn't there a thread about "first handgun" advice a while back ?
I assumed he was being sarcastic...when is Marshal going to invent the sarcasm emoticon?
I use the "rolling eyes", same as when I'm talking to an idiot liberal . ::)
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You guys have GOT to be kidding! Any case of smaller diameter for 45 ACP would not have room for a .452 bullet. Raed the second paragraph again and you'll find I started it with "Actually", sort of implies that I was joking. Get a sense of humor, please.
Pecos
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You guys have GOT to be kidding! Any case of smaller diameter for 45 ACP would not have room for a .452 bullet. Raed the second paragraph again and you'll find I started it with "Actually", sort of implies that I was joking. Get a sense of humor, please.
Pecos
You had me at Hello!
;D
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HAHAHAHAHA
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New to the forum, so don't know what previous posts had to say about this, but it IS a pain when reloading brass scavenged from the range. I was surprised to see the Federal rounds put up with the small primers. I had seen Speer & Blazer headstamps having them & found out they were put up on their frangible & non-toxic ammo, as a previous poster noted.
One thing I did notice on the Speer & Blazer brass, and this is a concave look to the base. It really stands out when placed side by side along other brass, so this might help in identifying these from regular brass with large primers.
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downwind,
It is a pain even when you are purchasing new ammunition to gain your brass. That is how this all started. Also, look out for Winchester's Win-Clean. The primer flashhole is a pan with small indirect holes in it. It is like ramming your decapping pin through a solid sheet of brass ... and the brass wins :'( This was discussed a couple years ago.
In handgun and shotshell reloading we tend to get into the mass production mode and forget to inspect everything closely. It is issues like this that we need to discuss so we are reminded to slow down and double check.
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....remind us to slow down and double check.
Amen.
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i once discarded some of that small primer 45 brass and was told to just load with Small pistol primers on my Dillon press; Since I also load calibers using them all I needed to do was leave the small primer cup on the machine when reloading them. I find them to be almost the same as using large pistol primers (a Hair slower muzzle velocity) but if want more slightly more heat, I just use Magnum small pistol primers instead. I love them!!
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I also have seen only a very small difference in velocity over my chronograph using identical loads with only the primer size varying. It adds a small amount of extra time for sorting, but otherwise the small primer cases shoot just fine. I wouldn't worry too much about you loads unless you are really on the hairy edge.
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Once we have gotten past the issue of trying to ram an oversized primer in a small hole the issue I see isn't on the upper end - trying to make power factor in a came like USPSA. Most of us load enough and chrono ahead of time to be certain. My larger concern would be on the download side. If you play a game that allows light loads the lower powder volume combined with the smaller primer flame jet could become an issue. This is where I see the possible need for drilling out the flash hole, and maybe upping the powder charge.
It is problems like this that make reloading fun for me!
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Once we have gotten past the issue of trying to ram an oversized primer in a small hole the issue I see isn't on the upper end - trying to make power factor in a came like USPSA. Most of us load enough and chrono ahead of time to be certain. My larger concern would be on the download side. If you play a game that allows light loads the lower powder volume combined with the smaller primer flame jet could become an issue. This is where I see the possible need for drilling out the flash hole, and maybe upping the powder charge.
It is problems like this that make reloading fun for me!
It would be cool to have enough brass so that the large primer stuff could be used for either the fast stuff or the light stuff and the small primer stuff for the other. I have about 3 boxes of CCI Blazer Brass (small primer) and a couple hundred large primer round for my 45 and I think I might just do that since I'm just starting out. It'll probably work until I get flooded with one or the other ;D
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Not intending a thread drift, but this is a good place to insert this:
If you are truly hooked on shooting games and interested in adding to your brass inventory, get involved and RO a major event. Major events are "lost brass." The RO's get take all the brass they want from these matches. Before the penalties for overweight luggage, I brought two five quart ice cream pails of .45acp home from Mesa, AZ. I have seen guys take home five gallon pails of brass at the end of each day.
Keep in mind that all this brass needs to be sorted and inspected, and in a match that includes "open guns" 9mm major can not be reloaded. It is a one shot deal due to the max over pressures put on the brass. However, brass is very valuable at the recycling center, so don't be afraid to sell the scrap. Our local club purchases all of its paper target needs (various NRA targets for bullseye, smallbore, and pellet and bb) with money received from spent .22 rimfire cases.
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Is primer size part of the SAMMI spec for .45 ACP?
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SAMMI/ANSI specs do not state primer. The drawings do not show the primer pocket.
I looked at my reloading books, called a couple friends that reload .45acp, and did a web search. All I can find on the small pistol primer in .45acp is in forums like this one and whackier.