The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: twyacht on April 23, 2012, 07:14:57 PM
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One of our writers (who shall remain nameless) emailed me today about his trip into the wilderness. “While hiking, I ran into a twenty-something carrying an 16″ [modern home sporting rifle] AR. On the way out ran into a fellow with an XD. Our man was leading a Boy Scout Troop. So he wasn’t carrying, was he? No, he wasn’t. Because The Boy Scouts of America forbids it. Guide to safe scouting: VIII: “Except for law enforcement officers required to carry firearms within their jurisdiction, firearms shall not be brought on camping, hiking, backpacking, or other Scouting activities except those specifically planned for target shooting under the supervision of a currently certified BSA or National Rifle Association firearms instructor.” Is that a sensible precaution? Would the ban stop you from being a troop leader or sending your child into the wilderness with the Scouts? What’s your take on the Scouts “gun-free” leadership policy?
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/04/robert-farago/question-of-the-day-should-the-boy-scouts-allow-troop-leaders-to-carry/
My son, was Troop 179 Mt. Mourne, NC. Went on many a trip with his troop...You can bet your a** I had "something" tucked away on my person, and/or backpack....
I'm a just in case kinda guy.....Nobody knew. Actually taught those boys some lessons in the Uhwarrie National Park about camping in below freezing conditions....
(don't leave your leather boots exposed to 21 degree weather) they freeze stiff as a board....toes up too....(and don't let your fire go out.)....
anyway....I think the Scouts have had a cultural politically correct shift. (They used to teach Scouts how to shoot back in the day)...
Geez....
"The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world... The first step in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come is to teach men to shoot!"
Theodore Roosevelt
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I recently mentioned to some one that the "Boy Scouts" were founded as boy scouts, in other words junior soldiers.
He said "Well, I doubt that's what Baden Powell had in mind".
I enlightened him that that was exactly what Baden Powell had in mind. In fact he got the idea from the wonderful service of the kids who served as runners and scouts for his forces during the siege of Mafeking during the Boer War.Any one who can not accept the fact that the Boy Scouts are intended for junior military service should not be involved with the group.
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Keeping with the history of the Boy Scouts this is a no brainer, and they should be allowed to carry. However, in this over PC culture many with no vested interest in the Boy Scouts have stuck their nose in and caused problems. These law suits have caused the Boy Scouts to make some strange decisions.
Bottom line: I believe that this is a matter to be decided between a private organization and its members. It is of no concern for the rest of us, and if someone does not like the decision they are free to leave or stay out.
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Boy Scout leaders are responsible for the safety of other peoples children, they should not be allowed to carry rifles and pistols.
They should be REQUIRED to carry rifles and pistols.
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I know I carried when I went camping, but then I went as a parent/volunteer. I suspect the leaders of my son's troop were also carrying at least in their vehicles.
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As far as I'm concerned, Boy Scout or not, if you are heading into the backcountry, you are stupid NOT to be armed. ESPECIALLY in todays world. Not only does it allow you to deal with dangerous animals. (wolves anyone?) but drug runners use our wilderness to ship their product. More than once I have happened upon a drug drop. Fortunately I never came into contact with the persons involved, but it's a scary feeling knowing what these (two legged) animals are capable of. All I ever did was beat feet and make a call, but I immedeately went into evasion mode. (gun in hand, head down, hyper aware, and getting out without being seen)
For those of you who haven't heard, Wyoming is a major drug distribution hub. What they do is pay off the ranchers. They fly over and drop their drugs on the ranchers land before landing at the airport. (We have an international airport, so they can fly directly in and go through customs) They then go and rent a U-haul and go get their drop. They jump on the highway and are gone.
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As far as I'm concerned, Boy Scout or not, if you are heading into the backcountry, you are stupid NOT to be armed. ESPECIALLY in todays world. Not only does it allow you to deal with dangerous animals. (wolves anyone?) but drug runners use our wilderness to ship their product. More than once I have happened upon a drug drop. Fortunately I never came into contact with the persons involved, but it's a scary feeling knowing what these (two legged) animals are capable of. All I ever did was beat feet and make a call, but I immedeately went into evasion mode. (gun in hand, head down, hyper aware, and getting out without being seen)
For those of you who haven't heard, Wyoming is a major drug distribution hub. What they do is pay off the ranchers. They fly over and drop their drugs on the ranchers land before landing at the airport. (We have an international airport, so they can fly directly in and go through customs) They then go and rent a U-haul and go get their drop. They jump on the highway and are gone.
+1 well said JC.
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It is not a PC issue it is a liability issue. The BSA has always had a shooting sports program in place to teach youth about firearms starting with Cub Scouts including Boy Scouts up to Ventures and Explorers.
Ranger Dave
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I was part of the Council staff in San Diego when the whole athiest and inclusion of female leaders lawsuits hit. What a F-ing MESS. Completely rewrote the entire Explorer program and made it impossible to plan anything.
The BSA shooting program was fairly good, at least through when I was a Scout. As a Scouter I was in Japan, so no shooting and couldn't say what San Diego's program was like.
Now I am looking at the Girl Scout (no other Boys in the house) program, big bold THOU SHALT NOT.... even archery is frowned upon.
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It is not a PC issue it is a liability issue. The BSA has always had a shooting sports program in place to teach youth about firearms starting with Cub Scouts including Boy Scouts up to Ventures and Explorers.
Ranger Dave
Be a much bigger liability issue if a couple of the little guys get turned into cougar turds.
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Not worrired so much about little guy being turned into cougar or bear turds if proper food and camp proceedure are followed. I am worried about the dad of the new scout who has never been camping and has his new gun (which he does not know how to use or basid safety) with worried about critters. ;D
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I am of the opinion if you have cc permit and no one sees it no problem.
Ranger Dave
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I am of the opinion if you have cc permit and no one sees it no problem.
Ranger Dave
SHAME ON YOU !
Such disregard for the rules is pretty much my attitude as well. ;D
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Question: Should Boy Scout Troop Leaders Be Allowed To Carry?
A: Yes.
**See that whole section of the US Constitution known as the Second Amendment.
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It is not a PC issue it is a liability. The BSA has always had a shooting sports program in place to teach youth about firearms starting with Cub Scouts including Boy Scouts up to Ventures and Explorers.
Ranger Dave
Get this. Scouts SA ( South Australia ) At my club we have started training some of there leaders as RO's for our club for them to train and supervise the kids on the range
They will be joining us to learn about shooting and all thing s fun with shooting
However I do think with all the things that like to eat you over there it did surprise me that they can not have one of the leaders at least have a firearm to protect them
Personally I think they would be more of a liability issue if they did not have one ad something happened
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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I was part of the Council staff in San Diego when the whole athiest and inclusion of female leaders lawsuits hit. What a F-ing MESS. Completely rewrote the entire Explorer program and made it impossible to plan anything.
The BSA shooting program was fairly good, at least through when I was a Scout. As a Scouter I was in Japan, so no shooting and couldn't say what San Diego's program was like.
Now I am looking at the Girl Scout (no other Boys in the house) program, big bold THOU SHALT NOT.... even archery is frowned upon.
Try the American Heritage Girls program instead (http://www.ahgonline.org/ (http://www.ahgonline.org/))- very religiously based (Christian) and very pro-USA and American History. There are a number of Troops in SoCal. I would not go near the Girl Scouts, as they have been seriously perverted into good little feminazis.
As to the OP - yes, but if found out, the Troop will lose its charter from the local Council, or the leader will have to be tossed out at the very least.
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I think you all are over reacting a bit here. I started shooting again when my son started scouts 6 years ago. Since then I have become an NRA certified RSO and Shotgun instructor to support our troops activities. We have very high interest from the boys in guns and shooting and are doing a great job of teaching them safety and responsibility, even those whose parents are gun phobic. My son and I shoot action pistol and have gotten interested in ARs. Most place we take scouts are more controlled conditions than you would find out in a national forest, scout camps, designated trails, private property, public ranges, etc. I doubt that a wolf has much interest in a dozen or more smelly and noisy scouts. We have encountered a bear or two and the correct answer is to scare them off with a whistle not try to blast them with a CCW and annoy them into a fight.
The scouts are doing a great job of helping parents to raise boys with great values and experiences. They do not need to take on some stupid political battle to prove a point that is not part of their mission. They are absolutely not anti gun and they have to deal with the fact that they are a rich target for legal trolls. The recent NRA instructor training I was at was put on by BSA staff in their free time for BSA leaders and was FULL with dads spending 3 days getting the skills to safely teach other peoples kids about the joys of shooting. Your kicking the wrong dog here!
The primary weapon in life is the one between your ears not the one in the holster. If you are so sure that guns are required for scout leaders, then name 3 actual events that have involved scout troops needing to shoot their way out of a situation. i know of none, ever.
I do know that the injuries and deaths that BSA has experienced related to firearms are all associated with ceremonial cannons at scout camps and were caused by ignorant adults mis-loading them.
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No one is arguing what you say, Joe, and you make valid points....to a degree. The main point being argued (at least on my behalf) here is the right to CCW being 'controlled' by a non-governing entity.
The same fight and issue has been taken up over CCW in the workplace several times.
No one that I've seen has suggested "blasting away a problem with a CCW" anywhere here......simply that a CCW holder should have the right to carry, provided the law allows it.
And, just because there may be no documented accounts of BSA Troops being accosted by critters (two legged or four) doesn't mean the potential isn't there.....you do take extra toilet paper...don't you?.............. Just in case? ;)
JMHO, FWIW
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Isn't there a Boy Scout motto that answers the question?
Just sayin.....
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In light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear encounters, the California Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, backpackers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert for bears.
We advise outdoorsmen to wear noisy little bells on their clothing so that the bears are not startled unexpectedly by a human's presence. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear.
It is also a good idea to watch for fresh signs of bear activity. Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear poop and grizzly bear poop. Black bear poop is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur. Grizzly bear poop smells like pepper and has little bells in it.
;D
I lived in Northern California for two years no where near real civilization. I wouldn't set foot in the mountains without some kind of sidearm! Of course, back then, we didn't have all of the silly phuqing laws on the books about carrying a sidearm either!
It's a free country protected by the Bill of Rights! Do as you please if you've been deemed a proper citizen who's ability to carry a firearm has not been restricted!
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If you are so sure that guns are required for scout leaders, then name 3 actual events that have involved scout troops needing to shoot their way out of a situation. i know of none, ever.
This took five minutes to find on the interweb! I'm sure I could find more...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301758,00.html
http://www.wlwt.com/r/24182368/detail.html
Friday, July 21, 2006
SPRINGVILLE, Utah - A black bear that bit a sleeping Boy Scout through the wall of his tent was shot after it later returned to the camp, authorities said.
Colton Stewart, 14, woke up early Wednesday to a burning sensation in his upper arm, then realized it was a bear biting his arm through the tent, state wildlife officials said. He pulled away and heard the bear run off through the brush.
"It wasn't biting viciously. They put their mouth on things to see what they taste like," said Anis Aoude, regional wildlife manager for the state Division of Wildlife Resources. "In this case, there just happened to be a kid's arm on the other side of the tent."
The bite wasn't serious, but camp officials notified the state, which sent a game warden to the Adventure Park Scout Camp in central Utah.
That evening, as barbecued ribs were being prepared for the 90 Scouts, the 2- to 3-year-old female bear wandered back into the area, DWR Central Region Supervisor John Fairchild said.
"It wasn't afraid of anybody," Fairchild said. "It paralleled the camp, and the conservation officer waited for the bear to get away from the people in a safe area before he shot it."
The bear had apparently become habituated to eating human food and had lost its fear of people, making it dangerous so close to the camp.
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More than likely the scouts made one or more of the following mistakes;
1. food in tent
2. sleeping in the clothes he ate in or clothes in tent
3. did not dispose of excess food properly or had food in camp.
Ranger Dave
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More than likely the scouts made one or more of the following mistakes;
1. food in tent
2. sleeping in the clothes he ate in or clothes in tent
3. did not dispose of excess food properly or had food in camp.
Ranger Dave
Agreed but to say that animal attacks simply don't occur is silly! Bears are omnivorous, mountain lions, wolf and coyote are not! A hungry or trapped critter is one of the most dangerous things you'll encounter in the wild. Second only to man I'd expect!
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Granted I would like to be able to carry on a scout trip and follow all the proper procedures for for camping in the wilderness. However I would hate to tell little Johnys mom something like this happened.http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=17604.0
Ranger Dave
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Granted I would like to be able to carry on a scout trip and follow all the proper procedures for for camping in the wilderness. However I would hate to tell little Johnys mom something like this happened.http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=17604.0
Ranger Dave
No argument from me Dave! That was and is a tragedy.
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:) Yes I do; no you cant'; that's why they call it concealed.
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Jnevis,
Can you explain what basis the plaintiffs stood on when they sued concerning God and male only? This is a private organization, and I never understood how they could sue.
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Jnevis,
Can you explain what basis the plaintiffs stood on when they sued concerning God and male only? This is a private organization, and I never understood how they could sue.
Cutthroat lawyers. The same ones that brought the case forward where Muslims attending a Catholic College sued because there was nowhere in the facility they could go to pray without some catholic symbol. Not sure how that one ever made it into a court. ::)
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Friday, July 21, 2006
SPRINGVILLE, Utah - A black bear that bit a sleeping Boy Scout through the wall of his tent was shot after it later returned to the camp, authorities said.
Note that the bear was shot by authorities but not with a CCW.
I am not saying that there aren't critters out there or that there are not dangers. I have spent a lot of time in my life in the woods and seen a few predators over the years. But it is silly to declare that BSA is a bunch of bums because they have chosen not to fight the political fight that someone else wants them to fight. If you want to carry then carry and accept that you will be ejected from the organization if it becomes an issue. Be there for the kids not for your politics.
I spend my time teaching them awareness and planning which i believe puts them way ahead of the herd throughout the rest of their lives. I use my EMT skills to treat injured kids all the time and have yet to run into one where a gun would have stopped the injury. Obviously I like guns,i just don't think they magically solve problems.
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Jnevis,
Can you explain what basis the plaintiffs stood on when they sued concerning God and male only? This is a private organization, and I never understood how they could sue.
They don't have to win in court. they win in the media and bleed money from the defendant. The longer it takes the more money the bleed and that happier they are. obviously those they oppose are racist homophobic woman haters. By and large the scouts have done well avoiding being a easy target and not being affected by the media attention. It helps that a large % of leaders in all area of society are Eagle Scouts.
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I think we've gotten a little off track. The issue is not MUST Scout leaders carry, but SHOULD they be allowed to.
I was a Scout leader for a lot of years, never carried (people's republik of illinois and all that) on camping trips, but given some of the places we went, yes, I should have. We went into some seriously hardcore back country and the people-risk was high in some of those.
That said, most of the Scouting programs are adult-lead (contrary to Baden-Powell's boy-lead concept) and I would not trust a gun in the hands of 99% of the leaders I ran into. Most of them were twits who ran merit-badge mills.
Short answer to the OP - yes.
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Should they be allowed to carry? YES.
Should they actually carry? YES.
Is this a private organization? Yes.
Given that it is a private organization, do they have the right to institute rules and regulations they see fit? Yes.
Do you have to join this organization? No.
Do I agree with their decision to say that leaders can't carry guns? NO, but it is ultimately their say.
In light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear encounters, the California Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, backpackers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert for bears.
We advise outdoorsmen to wear noisy little bells on their clothing so that the bears are not startled unexpectedly by a human's presence. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear.
It is also a good idea to watch for fresh signs of bear activity. Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear poop and grizzly bear poop. Black bear poop is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur. Grizzly bear poop smells like pepper and has little bells in it.
;D
I happen to live with a bear (that's bear, not beer) biologist. The consensus is that in the lower 48 bear spray is actually quite effective. They are less predatory and encounters are likely to be surprise to all involved. Alaska is a different story; pack a big gun. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that I wouldn't carry a firearm where/whenever possible. But, don't completely knock the bear spray.
On a mostly related note, It is surprisingly easy to conceal a large handgun from clueless people. I went out on a spur of the moment trip to the local refuge last night with some friends. Before I left, I quickly swapped my 26 and crossbreed holster for my 20 and an owb holster. This is my typical open carry woods rig, but concealed was required for multiple reasons. I tossed on a t-shirt and Columbia shirt over it and called it good. It printed like crazy, but I wasn't that concerned. Turns out, 3 super liberal (sometimes you just have to take what you can get) people who don't have a clue about the locals have no reason to suspect someone in the car with them is carrying. I would have been called out if discovered; so, I know they didn't spot it. It also enforced the "concealed is concealed" policy. I mainly wanted to be prepared for 2-legged critters.
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I happen to live with a bear (that's bear, not beer) biologist. The consensus is that in the lower 48 bear spray is actually quite effective. They are less predatory and encounters are likely to be surprise to all involved. Alaska is a different story; pack a big gun. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that I wouldn't carry a firearm where/whenever possible. But, don't completely knock the bear spray.
I don't! ;)
I've encountered a few bears and one mountain lion in my wanderings in the wild over my lifetime and seen a few coyote as well. The only one that stained the underoos was the lion but at the time I was completely and utterly vulnerable to being eaten. I probably had no chance to shoot even though I was armed but he/she never gave me a glance.
The bear encounters were calm but cautious. Both occurred here in New England.