The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: twyacht on April 29, 2012, 03:34:05 PM
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http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/04/robert-farago/usmc-on-female-infantry-persons-thats-your-call-congress/
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/Not-going-courtesy-militarytmescom_.jpg)
What do you think?
“Expanded infantry training for women does not mean the Marine Corps is ready to send women into combat assignments . . . We are not training women to be infantry officers.” That’s the Marine Corps’s mixed message on women on the front lines [via militarytimes.com]: Semper Fi but sit your butt down you’re not going anywhere Missie. Lt. Gen. Robert Milstead Jr., the deputy commandant for manpower and reserve affairs, told the Senate Armed Services Committee that the USMC couldn’t deploy women in that role even if they wanted to (which I’m thinking they don’t). “We do not have that authority. That authority rests with Congress.” I know! How about an Executive Order? That ought to make the President popular with his base. Just sayin’.
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Russians, Israeli's, and some other countries over the decades, have utilized women in combat operations. French resistance fighters in WWII were often women as well. Famous female snipers from Russia were very effective against German Troops on the Eastern Front. Israeli snipers have incorporated women for years, and are trained for combat operations just like the men.
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s234/Crazyeyes24/LadySniper.jpg)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/happiness-is-a-female-sniper-and-a-.jpg)
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j332/liron_string/israeli-women-soldiers.jpg)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/MolonLabe_s.jpg)
Plenty of bad ass women out there...
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/60.jpg)
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/Yustax/female_sniper.jpg)
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/49bb_bad2.jpg)
I say if they want to fight, let em...My ex-wife when in a blinding rage, could easily take folks out.... :o
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I say no.. I know it's unpopular with folks rotating through our recent theaters of combat, but I still say no..
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Yes!
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I have more than a couple female friends that I would have no reservations about having in my stack. Matter of fact, one of my best friends in high school was the first female platoon comander in Army Special Operaions Command. She was Signal Corp and Airborne/Air Assualt/Jumpmaster qualified.
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As long as they can meet the qualifications I don't care if they deploy Koala's.
They put queers in combat assignments what's the difference with real women ?
With all the bombings, and troops killed by supposed allies they might as well put women in combat, they currently stand nearly as much chance of getting killed any way.
At least then they would be better prepared.
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I said no.
The old canard about the Russkies and Israelis using women in combat is false. The Russkies used women in combat because the guys were all getting killed off in droves and they were running out of resources. As soon as WWII was over, the women went to support divisions.
Same with the Israelis after their War for Independence in 1948. Unless something has changed, women in Israel train for the reserves or for back echelon service like guards or medical. They do look hot, though, especially wielding those damn Tabors!!!! ;D
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The old canard about the Russkies and Israelis using women in combat is false. The Russkies used women in combat because the guys were all getting killed off in droves and they were running out of resources. As soon as WWII was over, the women went to support divisions.
But it worked didn't it? Women were effective combatants, and performed their duty.
We employed women in this country, in "male" roles,...Rosie The Riveter, comes to mind, machinists, pipe fitters, welders, heavy equipment operators, and it worked also...
Sure the MSM would portray the young female coed who died in combat as something tragic and pull on the heartstrings of a further "wussification" of our country....We have already lost female soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. IED's, RPG's, enemy snipers, accidents, etc,....have caused our own female troops to die. Whether they were support, or an otherwise "non" combat role, they did their duty.
Here's the female casualty stats from Iraq and Afghanistan; From the military:
2.4% (113) of the total fatalities were women, who make up 16% of the total DOD force. Men, who make up 84% of the total force experienced 97.6% (4,570) of the deaths in the two theaters of operation.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/terrorism/a/iraqdeath1000.htm
Here's another:
http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/lives.html
snip
Some historical records verify the fact that over sixty women were either wounded or killed at various battles during the Civil War.
Perhaps one of the the most poignant stories about women in the Civil War is told in Women in War1866, by Frank Moore.
In 1863, at age 19, a woman known only as Emily, ran away from home and joined the drum corps of a Michigan Regiment. The regiment was sent to Tennessee and during the struggle for Chatanooga a minie ball pierced the side of the young soldier. Her wound was fatal and her sex was disclosed. At first she refused to disclose her real name but as she lay dying she consented to dictate a telegram to her father in Brooklyn. "Forgive your dying daughter. I have but a few moments to live. My native soil drinks my blood. I expected to deliver my country but the fates would not have it so. I am content to die. Pray forgive me...... Emily."
G.I Jane was alive and well even in 1863.....
Joan of Arc?
They want to fight? Let em' fight....Did I mention the female Russian Fighter Pilots? ::)
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So far between Iraq and Afghanistan there have been 2 Silver Stars for gallantry in action awarded to female soldiers.
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Ok...I have a problem with woman lobbying to be allowed to serve in a combat role if they want to.
Shouldn't work any differently for men as for woman. Men don't serve in a combat role only if they want to....they join up and take their assignment.
If women are allowed in combat, which would take some social adjustments, they should serve in combat at the their assignment demands, they don't get to choose if the fight or not.
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Just a reminder that women have been serving aboard Naval vessels for 33 years and 18 years aboard combat vessels as well. In 2010, the Navy announced the first female officers to serve aboard submarines! Regardless of the pc nature of these announcements women want to serve and we shouldn't have a problem with all those that volunteer.
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Wasn't it in starship troopers where they had the coed showers?
I heard plenty of stories about "sandbag sally's" from gulf war I . They returned home with more cash than their actual pay.
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Wasn't it in starship troopers where they had the coed showers?
They also fought great big bugs! One of the dumbest movies I've ever seen...didn't read the book!
What's your point?
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Comon, man, that's a tough question. I think that we should not draft women unless we're down to no guys left... I also know that if one of my kids was being shortchanged in any way you did NOT want to be in my wife's way. So if you do the math women have one more consideration...rape. Yeah bad things can happen to male POWs but you can pretty much count on the rape of a captured female combatant.
Based on that, if women want to serve, can pass through the training, and can kick ass...let them There are certainly enough men who can't cut it, so if a woman wants it..let her go.
All that said, I feel a certain protectiveness toward... hell, even that arm wrestling woman in the earlier post, although I'd have to consider the consequeces....I'd protect her till she could carry me to safety....
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For the last forty years we've avoided the draft, technically!
Lets hope that our all volunteer force remains that way. Can you imagine what a modern draft deferral would look like?
I have a 26 year old daughter. Nothing would make this old squid more proud than to have her serve her country! It's not going to happen but I've never said anything to dissuade her either!
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Ok...I have a problem with woman lobbying to be allowed to serve in a combat role if they want to.
Shouldn't work any differently for men as for woman. Men don't serve in a combat role only if they want to....they join up and take their assignment.
If women are allowed in combat, which would take some social adjustments, they should serve in combat at the their assignment demands, they don't get to choose if the fight or not.
That is not exactly true. The Military Branches take a recruits preferences into consideration and if possible will at least send him to the school of his preference. if he fails then he goes infantry.
Also, it can be argued that keeping women out of combat is discrimination since it deprives them of the bonus (several thousand dollars ) for combat arms specialties.
They also fought great big bugs! One of the dumbest movies I've ever seen...didn't read the book!
What's your point?
Read it, you'll learn something.
Or at least it will make you think about a lot of things.
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No. It goes against the foundation of the nation.
Women are life givers....it should remain that way unless they have no choice but to defend themselves or their family. They are quite capable of killing as evidenced in the massive number of abortions we see in this nation.
We were different as a nation among all nations...we are losing that distinction along with our greatness. We can site how others have done it but that only means lesser nations have done so....not that it is a good idea or that we should.
My friend running for sherriff had his stomach rearranged along with his colon, other concussive internal damage along with both knees boogered up and some external body parts missing from an attack at his firebase in Iraq. He's glad to be alive but an AF woman officer in a bunker at the time got a great big star to advance her career....he got a disability and kiss my ass when he got out of the hospital...time for you to go on tour #3 boy. Political correctness is afoot in the military too...not all is what it appears to be.
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I had a chance to deploy to the desert as a 2lt. There was a female lt. there as well. She went into our boss's office for a good 15 minutes or a half hour with the doors closed. Our boss was a major. I have no idea what she did or what she told our boss, but she was the one who got picked for the deployment. At the time "social actions" or EEO was a big deal in the air force. Through the grapevine we all heard that her and another female lt. got to gallavant around the middle east instead of doing the jobs they were deployed to do originally.
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As long as they can meet the qualifications I don't care if they deploy Koala's..
we got enough loosing a few won't matter...
however PeTa, the Humane society, and Animals Australia I bet would care hehe
I am not sure, all depends if they can pass the training and qualifications why not..
especily if they can go from this
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to this
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Aust did this last year
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-15074246
Australia has lifted all restrictions on the roles that women can carry out in its armed forces.
Suitably-qualified female soldiers will be able to serve in the special forces and front-line combat units.
Defence Minister Stephen Smith said the ban would be lifted immediately but may take up to five years to implement. Critics described the move as premature and a gimmick.
Canada, New Zealand and Israel already allow women in all military roles.
Australia's military has about 59,000 full-time members, including 1,500 who are serving in Afghanistan.
Currently women are eligible for about 93% of roles, including artillery duties.
'All equal'
With the lifting of the ban, they will be able to fill the remaining 7%, so long as they are physically and psychologically qualified.
As well as combat roles, they will be eligible to serve in special forces units, if they can meet the entry standards.
Mr Smith said the move is "a logical extension to the very strongly held view in Australian society that all of us are equal irrespective of our backgrounds and irrespective of our sex".
He added: "From this day forward... no combat roles, no front-line role will be excluded from an Australian on the basis of his or her sex, it will be open to anyone to apply on the basis of merit.
"This is a significant and major cultural change."
however they still need to pass the entry standards to get in to SAS or other elite unit.
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Before answering this poll, ask yourself if you were a cop pulling night shift duty in Detroit or the south side of Chicago, and had the choice, would you prefer a cop chick for a partner, or a 190 pound ex Marine?
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And we all know those entry standards will be upheld. How many in authority will cave for their own future under threat of investigation, suit or unfounded allegation....so it begins the trek down.
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I have no problem as long as the standards stay the same. There should never be a 2 sets of standards, physical or otherwise. Everyone can do the job, or not, and if you can't so be it.
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NO. I dealt with this in Iraq and all the crap is not worth it. Double standards. Caught a male soldier (married) female soldier doing things they should not. Reported it and this female went to my First Sergeant (he should never been in the military either) Him and my commander called me on the carpet and chewed my arse for hours. They did not want to see this Lt. lose his career or the female. I got in more fights with my First Sergeant than you can believe. It almost came to blows a couple of times. He threatened to take my rank and I told him to try it. He did not have the rank to take mine. It takes a General or above to get mine, and when they find out the reason that I reported adultry and fraternization was the reason he was mad at me good luck.
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That is not exactly true. The Military Branches take a recruits preferences into consideration and if possible will at least send him to the school of his preference. if he fails then he goes infantry.
Also, it can be argued that keeping women out of combat is discrimination since it deprives them of the bonus (several thousand dollars ) for combat arms specialties.
True. You can also specific 'Conscientious Objector' and get modified duty....might still go into combat, but without carrying a gun.
Point was that if women are deemed eligible for a combat role, they do so the same as men...not just when they say they would like to go.
When I was in boot camp I met 3 WACS and they were dissing men soldiers for our lack of Spit and Polish. The wore dress greens walking around off duty and we work fatigues.... They also told us what a valuable service they were providing. They filled non-combat positions freeing up us guy for combat. I really wasn't totally thrilled that they were getting safe jobs and increasing the chances of me getting a position where I could bet my butt shot off.
If women want to be equal, make them be equal...not just equal when they like the idea.
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Before answering this poll, ask yourself if you were a cop pulling night shift duty in Detroit or the south side of Chicago, and had the choice, would you prefer a cop chick for a partner, or a 190 pound ex Marine?
My thoughts exactly....I just can't be thrilled about relying on someone who needs help to open a jar of pickles.
We had quite a few female Firefighters who passed the academy, some under very dubious circumstances.
My dept was quite fashionable and progressive. [vomit/]
A shocking number became Industrial Injury Queens and got their pension while only actually working as a FF 1/2 the time or less. It's not their fault they're born without balls and lack upper body strength but there it is...
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Before answering this poll, ask yourself if you were a cop pulling night shift duty in Detroit or the south side of Chicago, and had the choice, would you prefer a cop chick who can kick the butt of a 190 pound Marine, out shoot every member of the dept., has been given several awards for gallantry under fire for a partner, or a 55 pound male ex dance teacher who has a tendency to freeze up under pressure?
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NO. I dealt with this in Iraq and all the crap is not worth it. Double standards. Caught a male soldier (married) female soldier doing things they should not. Reported it and this female went to my First Sergeant (he should never been in the military either) Him and my commander called me on the carpet and chewed my arse for hours. They did not want to see this Lt. lose his career or the female. I got in more fights with my First Sergeant than you can believe. It almost came to blows a couple of times. He threatened to take my rank and I told him to try it. He did not have the rank to take mine. It takes a General or above to get mine, and when they find out the reason that I reported adultry and fraternization was the reason he was mad at me good luck.
Sounds like you only had a problem with ONE women.
Considering the larger problems of that unit women in combat is minor.
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.........
A shocking number became Industrial Injury Queens and got their pension while only actually working as a FF 1/2 the time or less. It's not their fault they're born without balls and lack upper body strength but there it is...
Exactly what I experienced working offshore. Stir up trouble among the guys and then sue about it.
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Before answering this poll, ask yourself if you were a cop pulling night shift duty in Detroit or the south side of Chicago, and had the choice, would you prefer a cop chick for a partner, or a 190 pound ex Marine?
If it's Jessie Abbate, I know her name has changed....I'm be fine with that...
Women want equal rights? Why deny them....Some female Deputy Sheriff's here in Broward County, would have no problem taking the night shift in Detroit...
(http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx66/3500_Diesel/Misc/Favorite/00188.jpg)
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Women want equal rights? Why deny them....Some female Deputy Sheriff's here in Broward County, would have no problem taking the night shift in Detroit...
If they maintain the level of strength and fitness that allows them to pass equal standards, I'm OK with that. Most women can't/won't.
Now all we have to do is convince the everyone that there should be only ONE EQUAL standard, not two.
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If they maintain the level of strength and fitness that allows them to pass equal standards, I'm OK with that. Most women can't/won't.
Now all we have to do is convince the everyone that there should be only ONE EQUAL standard, not two.
I agree 100%. That is the problem. Most all of the physical standards have been lowered since it has become "stylish" for women to be in the police or the military in roles that directly place them in harms way. Yes, there are a few "G.I. Jane's" out there, but they make up less than 1% of the women who choose this profession, now that they are able to qualify under the "new" standards. The other problem this generates is a larger percentage of overweight, out of shape, "doughnut cops". Decades back if a male cop got too fat or out of shape, he could be taken to task for it. Now they, (the department), can do little to nothing because there is some 5' 2", 105 pound, pony tailed cop chick riding with him, that is even less able to perform physically. If the department fired him, the worse ambulance chaser with a law degree could march into court claiming discrimination, and get his job back with a ton of bad publicity attached. And the media would be all over it in a heartbeat. This whole thing has opened up a Pandora's Box of issues. None of which are good or helpful.
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(http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx66/3500_Diesel/Misc/Favorite/00188.jpg)
Now that's just nasty...
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Now that's just nasty...
Do YOU want to be the one who tells her ? ;D
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In a support roll only.
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In a support roll only.
She looks like she NEEDS a supporter.
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She looks like she NEEDS a supporter.
Considering the steroids she's taken, you're probably right!
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I have several rules for dating women. One is to never date a woman who has bigger arms than me.
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Couldn't resist Jim Carrey as Vera de Milo.....In Living Color....
;D
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I voted no and not that I think that some woman are not strong enough, its that I have seen how men act around them in a combat enviornment.
I think it could be done if the units were segregated. All women unit. I think that is the only way that it would work.
Human science is just that science. But I am also a person who has a big problem with female police officers. Here is just an instance of a very trained Male coming to the aid of a threatened female. He almost gets killed in the process.
http://youtu.be/1ObxfhjkCww
I thought I should modify this.
This is just my opinion and yes I have met some great female officers out there. But like I said Human science is just that.
If a man sees a woman in danger no matter if your are straight, gay, or inbetween it will illicit an emotional response. Another man can not watch another man beat the crap out of a woman with out some sort of emotion becoming involved which leads to wanting to protect her. If Another man witnessing another man being beat up, depending on the nature and background of the event. you might be rooting the "punishment" on.
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I voted no and not that I think that some woman are not strong enough, its that I have seen how men act around them in a combat enviornment.
I think it could be done if the units were segregated. All women unit. I think that is the only way that it would work.
Human science is just that science. But I am also a person who has a big problem with female police officers. Here is just an instance of a very trained Male coming to the aid of a threatened female. He almost gets killed in the process.
http://youtu.be/1ObxfhjkCww
I thought I should modify this.
This is just my opinion and yes I have met some great female officers out there. But like I said Human science is just that.
If a man sees a woman in danger no matter if your are straight, gay, or inbetween it will illicit an emotional response. Another man can not watch another man beat the crap out of a woman with out some sort of emotion becoming involved which leads to wanting to protect her. If Another man witnessing another man being beat up, depending on the nature and background of the event. you might be rooting the "punishment" on.
Ksail, I think I'd replace human science with human nature....and I agree it would be a concern. In a previous post, I noted it as social problems....
However, I don't know how much of a problem it would be...or should be allowed to be.
Doing risky and 'stupid' thing to come to the defense of fellow officers in police depts. isn't a rare occurrence and in the military, they even give out medals for it....sometimes even when it is done against orders and SOP. "No one left behind" is deeply embedded in military culture.....even to the point of risking lives to retrieve your brother-in-arms corpse.
Even with this, professional soldiers should not risk the success of the mission, if success is still possible, for this honorable action.
It is also true that the soldiers might be more likely to take that risk should a female soldier's life be in danger. One reason is that they have not come to respect the abilities of that woman like they do with their fellow male soldiers.
As we have discussed, lowering the bar to allow women to "make the grade" is not the way to lead men to respect their abilities.
Should women serve after passing the same standards men to and after they demonstrate themselves as capable....as every new man in a squad needs to do...they can earn that respect and be treated as a 'sibling-in-arms'.
I don't know how quick or easy it might be, but human nature will change....as soon as it is seen the change will work.
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Even with this, professional soldiers should not risk the success of the mission, if success is still possible, for this honorable action. It is also true that the soldiers might be more likely to take that risk should a female soldier's life be in danger. One reason is that they have not come to respect the abilities of that woman like they do with their fellow male soldiers.
This reminds me of the whole Jessica Lynch ordeal. That story was plastered everywhere for weeks. Would it have been if she were a he?
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The last 3 posters are all basing their opinions on current social and cultural conduct.
As the circumstances of "women in combat" change so will the cultural and societal reactions to them.
You are confusing cultural prejudices with immutable facts of life.
Look at the difference in reaction to the Presidential campaigns of Shirley Chisholm and BO.
40 years ago a black President was unthinkable, now it is a reality.
Also, KSail is out of his freaking mind.
Look at the sh!t hemorrhage the media had over one US soldier allegedly going on a killing spree in Afghanistan.
What would be the result of a battalion of armed women with PMS ?
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This reminds me of the whole Jessica Lynch ordeal. That story was plastered everywhere for weeks. Would it have been if she were a he?
I don't think we can blame male/female solider interactions for the media running with this story.....the Pentagon or other top brass didn't mind encouraging the coverage.
I do believe that the rescue mission would have been mounted just as willingly had it been a male soldier.
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The last 3 posters are all basing their opinions on current social and cultural conduct.
As the circumstances of "women in combat" change so will the cultural and societal reactions to them.
You are confusing cultural prejudices with immutable facts of life.
Look at the difference in reaction to the Presidential campaigns of Shirley Chisholm and BO.
40 years ago a black President was unthinkable, now it is a reality.
Also, KSail is out of his freaking mind.
Look at the sh!t hemorrhage the media had over one US soldier allegedly going on a killing spree in Afghanistan.
What would be the result of a battalion of armed women with PMS ?
Tom, I was basing my my observations on current trends....but stated I believe those current social and cultural mores will change as qualified women assume combat roles.
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I do believe that the rescue mission would have been mounted just as willingly had it been a male soldier.
I believe so as well. But the media hyped it because of her being.....well her. It's like the whole Trayvon Martin mess. If it were the other way around it would have been a 30 second filler story at 11:27 PM. Now it's prime fodder for months.
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This reminds me of the whole Jessica Lynch ordeal. That story was plastered everywhere for weeks. Would it have been if she were a he?
That's exactly why women should be considered combatants.
She was in a "noncombatant" (maint IIRC ) unit and was completely unprepared for the situation she wound up in.
In modern warfare there are NO non combat units in a war zone.
If women are going to serve in the military at all it is nothing short of murder to leave them thinking they won't be shot at.