The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: santahog on October 26, 2012, 07:19:16 AM
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I know I'm generally late to popular activities.. I never watched an episode of Magnum P.I. that aired in regular season. Same with Home Improvement..
I installed/used a Red Dot for the first time this week. A rifle..
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!! THIS IS OFF THE HOOK, KINDA GOOD!!! I'M POPPING 300 YARD MILK JUGS AS FAST AS A SODA CAN AT 15 FEET WITH A HANDGUN!!
WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY TELL ME ABOUT THIS???!! THIS IS THE BEST THING SINCE BIRTH CONTROL PILLS!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Okay.. Now that that's out of my system..
If these work as well on a handgun, (with adequate holster) these need to be on any defense/carry gun that goes out the door!!
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Yep! I loves my Eotech on the AR. I will never own another defensive carbine/brush hog hunting rifle without one. I haven't tried one on a pistol yet, but both eyes open and minute of bad guy/hog at 100 yards? When did this start, and why wasn't I informed? ;D I'll save the glass for the deer rifles and range toys. Its Eotech, Aimpoint and Triijicon for me, dependening on my wallet.
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I put a laser on my Glock 27. Loved it.
Took it off when I realized that the plastic cap on the laser battery compartment (that replaces the entire factory recoil spring assembly) was subject to breakage during use. If/when that bit of plastic gives way, my Glock would become an expensive club.
Loved it when it worked. Feared it would disable my gun just when I might need it most.
The lasers that are fitted to the externals of a handgun are just fine... But just how far are you going to be shooting your handgun? If you can't hit your target at 30 feet, you simply need more practice.
Crusader
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CR, He's talking about Red dot sights like the little Aimpoint .
Gabe Suarez has been playing with the "RMR" on a Glock for a while and I think MB has been experimenting with the idea as well.
The only real modification needed for the holster is a notch to clear the sight.
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USPSA has been shooting red dot sights on pistols for a LONG time. It wasn't until a couple years ago that a version came out that was small enough to be considered possible for a defensive arm.
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I have a laser on all my defensive hand guns but one...and it has one in a box to be installed.
Red Dot and Laser sights do pretty much the same thing....they put your front sight on the target instead of on the end of your barrel.
No parallax with good red dots so if you see it on the target, that is where the bullet goes.
One benefit the Laser has over a Red Dot is that you can be way out of stance or position and still see exactly where you shot will hit. Might not be as useful on a rifle or shot gun unless you are shooting from the hip, but on a handgun it is a great advantage.
Downside is they are more prone to failure/damage than iron sights.
On a handgun, they are a great training aid as they let you see your wobble area and show any trigger pull movement of the sight picture while dry firing.
They can't (shouldn't) replace being competent with your iron sights but do a better job as long as they don't fail.
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If these work as well on a handgun, (with adequate holster) these need to be on any defense/carry gun that goes out the door!!
Why? If most self-defense situations are 3 shots fired in 3 seconds at 3 yards, you likely won't have time to use your sights.
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Why? If most self-defense situations are 3 shots fired in 3 seconds at 3 yards, you likely won't have time to use your sights.
So why carry anything bigger than a S&W J frame, that would give you two extra rounds just in case... ???
But seriously thinking about and training for the likely self-defense shooting is a trap that could have serious repercussions. In truth if we could avoid EVER shooting someone we would but there are those times when you need to "deliver the shot" like the guy that shot a bad guy that was shooting at at cop from what 75 yards? Or the guy with a CCW and an opportunity to shoot the guy going into a Waffle house but didn't because he didn't think he could hit the guy from 75 yards and how many died and were injured? Or the other side of the coin were two of NYPD's finest fired 16 rounds from 7' and managed to miss 9 times. The point is every advantage we can from gear get is great and we need to train to further that advantage.
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While red dots are great and do make follow up shots faster and more accurate, I'd be leary of actually putting one on a SD gun.
First is the whole battery question. It WILL fail when you need it most, Murphy be damned. Without the battery most of them are to big to get a good sight picture with, although as stated you're probably to close to care anyway.
Second a good prosecutor will nail you to a wall. A laser is grey area, and getting to be more "accepted" but red dots on handguns is still the realm of Rambo and competition shooters.
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MB is awaiting a Glock 19 w/some sort of rd imbedded in the slide! I await his review. That being said, I had one on a ss .38 super yeaaaaaaars ago and it didn't work for me. Probably because I wasn't able to practice enough with it.
YMMV
Richard
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For the training I've done with an AR the "dot" sights are faster than irons.
At 15 yards and in the EOTech beats the Aimpoint dot.
At plus 25 yards, maybe 35 yards....the Aimpoint beats the EOTech for me.
Reason for my old eyes, the view through the EOTech is larger and quick. However, at "distance" as dictated by how accurate a shot I have to make, when I really have to focus and aim on something more than a close center of mass or head shot then I get quicker and better hits with the Aimpoint.
Both fine sights. For me, it depends on the application. Certainly beyond 35 yards I prefer the Aimpoint. However, you can still make accurate shots with the EOTech at distance but I need to dial down the light intensity and take more time to make the shot. On the same range and barricade as shown on the Rapid Fire show at distance to pick either the Kris or Thompson I made those same shots pretty quick with an EOTech....would have been quicker with a Aimpoint....that, by the way, is a 75 yard distance shot on small poppers they made on the multi-level barricade with window.
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I am not saying they are cheap, but the 3X for my Eotech makes shooting a pleasure. Trying to see a .223 hole at anything beyond 15 yds is next to impossible. I bought the Eotech and the 3X about a year apart, wish I had waited and bought the ACOG for the same price, but I am neither rich or pateint.
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Why? If most self-defense situations are 3 shots fired in 3 seconds at 3 yards, you likely won't have time to use your sights.
That statistic, as far as I know, is based off of cop involved shootings... And as you know the police are actually supposed to go after bad guys, subdue them, then cuff em and stuff em.
I don't know how accurate that statistic is with respect to the encounters Joe Private Citizen has had.
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Why? If most self-defense situations are 3 shots fired in 3 seconds at 3 yards, you likely won't have time to use your sights.
The real questing should be "What is the greatest distance and greatest number of shots needed to end the conflict ...and how long did it take?"
If we plan our strategy for the average encounter, we then have an average chance of surviving.
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That statistic, as far as I know, is based off of cop involved shootings...
I don't know how accurate that statistic is with respect to the encounters Joe Private Citizen has had.
Actually it is Joe Private Citizens. It comes from Tom Givens (rangemaster.com), who has had 60 students involved in shootings in the past five years, says the average gunfight is “three shots in three seconds at three yards,” but also reports a few student incidents in which eight to twelve rounds were fired.
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MB posted this in his Blog for Oct 27 2012
" I got my Glock G19 slide back from L&M Precision Gunworks in Prescott with the Trij RMR installed. They do great work! Mike Seeklander and I talked a lot about red dot-sighted defensive pistols when we were together this week, Her's got an M&P with Trij sights done by David Bowie. and he agrees with Bill Rogers and Chris Edwards that the dots are probably the future of defensive pistols. i'm talking to Leupold next week about their DeltaPoint sights. They are a big sponsor — see, I always tell you! — and I'm interested in getting their sights on either another G19 or a Ruger SR9."
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MB posted this in his Blog for Oct 27 2012
" ... Mike Seeklander and I talked a lot about red dot-sighted defensive pistols ..., and he agrees with Bill Rogers and Chris Edwards that the dots are probably the future of defensive pistols. ..."
Tom, it they are the future of defensive pistols I will believe it more when 8-10 people show up with red dot sights in the next shooting class I take (taken 5 in 2012). To be clear, I'm not saying don't put them on your carry gun. I just don't want one on my pocket guns (Glock 26 and S&W j-frame). I just don't think they are needed for self-defense.
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Don, I just saw MB's post and thought it was appropriate in this thread.
Myself, while I think they are a great tool for the box I have to note that I still don't particularly trust electronics on mechanical items.
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If I were a cop carrying openly I'd think about one. But for a concealed piece I'd put my money on a laser or a nice set of tritiums, probably the latter. One of the cool things about being poor is I don't have to worry about stuff like that. ;D
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Actually it is Joe Private Citizens. It comes from Tom Givens (rangemaster.com), who has had 60 students involved in shootings in the past five years, says the average gunfight is “three shots in three seconds at three yards,” but also reports a few student incidents in which eight to twelve rounds were fired.
That's funny... Because a police academy instructor told me the rule of 3 to 5's back in the late 1990's.
3 to 5 seconds in duration
3 to 5 yards
3 to 5 shots fired
If I had the time, I'd like to track down all 60 news links for each shooting.
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That's funny... Because a police academy instructor told me the rule of 3 to 5's back in the late 1990's.
3 to 5 seconds in duration
3 to 5 yards
3 to 5 shots fired
If I had the time, I'd like to track down all 60 news links for each shooting.
Unless you're the NYPD, and then its empty your mag as fast as possible, reload, then aim. ;D
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Actually it is Joe Private Citizens. It comes from Tom Givens (rangemaster.com), who has had 60 students involved in shootings in the past five years, says the average gunfight is “three shots in three seconds at three yards,” but also reports a few student incidents in which eight to twelve rounds were fired.
That's funny... Because a police academy instructor told me the rule of 3 to 5's back in the late 1990's.
3 to 5 seconds in duration
3 to 5 yards
3 to 5 shots fired
If I had the time, I'd like to track down all 60 news links for each shooting.
Actually they are basically the same just that Tylers gives more of a range rather than a specific measurement.
What I'm more curious about is Tom Givens having 60 students involved in shootings.
How many of those were actually "civilians".
What percentage of all his civilian students is that.
How does that percentage compare to other instructors experience.
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It does seem like a lot. I know a lot of guys with CCWs and none who've ever had to fire their weapons, including me, knock wood.
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If his percentage is that high I'd have second thoughts about taking a class from him. I personally do NOT want to be in a gunfight, and with that law of averages says...
;D
I've always seen those numbers associated with the FBI reports, not civilians.
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Actually they are basically the same just that Tylers gives more of a range rather than a specific measurement.
What I'm more curious about is Tom Givens having 60 students involved in shootings.
How many of those were actually "civilians".
What percentage of all his civilian students is that.
How does that percentage compare to other instructors experience.
If you look at a map, going out a couple of hours from Tom Givens place, you'll see some pretty rough towns in his territory. that could explain alot.. Don't know, mind you.. Just a thought..
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Sorry, santahog I didn't mean to derail your thread.
Have you tried some crimson trace laser grips yet?
I use them for bowling pin matches.
They are awesome! ;D
I am assuming you have heard of the Bindon Aiming Concept, where you shoot with both eyes open, and your brain superimposes the two images.
Scroll down at this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Combat_Optical_Gunsight
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60 students seems awfully high, unless they are armed professionals of some kind( leo, guard, miltary and etc) even if say 1% of your class takers need to defend themselfs. ( which would be way high for the public , but about right for leos) that would mean you would need to train about 6k people a year. Which is alot. Even if you work 300 days a year, thats 20 new people a day. that has to be for professionals. ( or its bs).
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Actually they are basically the same just that Tylers gives more of a range rather than a specific measurement.
What I'm more curious about is Tom Givens having 60 students involved in shootings.
How many of those were actually "civilians".
What percentage of all his civilian students is that.
How does that percentage compare to other instructors experience.
I'll try to get some answers. I am relying on my memory as I did not take notes during Given's lectcure. And I'm likely wrong about the time frame. Given's has been in business for at lest 30 years. Those "60" likely occured over that time. As I think about it, the lecture focused on 10 or so of events. Those may have occured in the last 5 years. By the way, 58 of his students won the shoot out. 2 died. They were not armed at the time.
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I'll try to get some answers. I am relying on my memory as I did not take notes during Given's lectcure. And I'm likely wrong about the time frame. Given's has been in business for at lest 30 years. Those "60" likely occured over that time. As I think about it, the lecture focused on 10 or so of events. Those may have occured in the last 5 years. By the way, 58 of his students won the shoot out. 2 died. They were not armed at the time.
That would tend to inhibit success in a gunfight.
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I'll try to get some answers. I am relying on my memory as I did not take notes during Given's lectcure. And I'm likely wrong about the time frame. Given's has been in business for at lest 30 years. Those "60" likely occured over that time. As I think about it, the lecture focused on 10 or so of events. Those may have occured in the last 5 years. By the way, 58 of his students won the shoot out. 2 died. They were not armed at the time.
So, 100% of his students who brought a gun to the gun fight won.
Not a bad record.
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Were they in a gunfight first then took the class?
Or did they take the class first then get in a gunfight?
Or were these just plain Joe Citizen Sixpacks
Or cops?
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Or did the other guy have a gun. Or a weapon of any kind? 60 over 30 years still sounds high to me for the public.
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Sorry, santahog I didn't mean to derail your thread.
Have you tried some crimson trace laser grips yet?
I use them for bowling pin matches.
They are awesome! ;D
I am assuming you have heard of the Bindon Aiming Concept, where you shoot with both eyes open, and your brain superimposes the two images.
Scroll down at this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Combat_Optical_Gunsight
It's not "my" thread.. I'm just chatting like everybody else..
I have a set of CT for the 1911. I pulled them off of a Kimber that I traded for the rifle I was talking about, (with the Red Dot on it). I still haven't put them on the new 1911. I've never trained with the CT, per se. I'm not convinced that they need to come on every time I get a grip on it. If the situation were to arise that they would work against me, well, I'd rather have to think to turn them on than turn them off..
The Red Dot on the rifle is just a $40 sight with no magnification.
The rifle does have a light/laser on it too, btw.. I a few more of those for the rest of the long guns too, plus a piece of rail to mount on the 12 ga. Never "finished".. Not yet, anyway..
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I read a Gun Tests article about laser sights, CT is supposed to have an on/off switch IIRC, but it is an SOB to manipulate it.
That seems to be a fairly common complaint with all pistol lasers, either to small and difficult, or to large and snags.
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I read a Gun Tests article about laser sights, CT is supposed to have an on/off switch IIRC, but it is an SOB to manipulate it.
That seems to be a fairly common complaint with all pistol lasers, either to small and difficult, or to large and snags.
LaserMAX for the Glock is a guide rod laser. A replacement take down lever is the on/off switch. Push it off center and it is on...back to center for off. Your trigger finger is in position to activate it where it is extended before you put it on the trigger.
Turning it back off will take your off hand.
Only problem I have had with one is that in a soft holster, the SmartCarry, to be exact, it is possible to turn the Laser on by pressure against the holster.
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LaserMAX for the Glock is a guide rod laser. A replacement take down lever is the on/off switch. Push it off center and it is on...back to center for off. Your trigger finger is in position to activate it where it is extended before you put it on the trigger.
Turning it back off will take your off hand.
Only problem I have had with one is that in a soft holster, the SmartCarry, to be exact, it is possible to turn the Laser on by pressure against the holster.
That's the "Large and snags" category.
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That's the "Large and snags" category.
Well, the Laser doesn't make the Glock any larger than it already was and the take down lever was there before...so the addition of the laser did noting to get it into that category.
But, yes, the take down lever on a standard Glock will snag on a poorly made holster.