The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: sledgemeister on November 25, 2012, 07:20:31 AM
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WARNING CONTAINS IMAGES WHICH MAY CAUSE DISTRESS
Attached is a FBI analysis of a shoot out with a guy armed with a .45 and them with .40 cals and .223s
I found it very interesting and noteworthy especially the last sentence!
Here is the link http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf
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WARNING CONTAINS IMAGES WHICH MAY CAUSE DISTRESS
Attached is a FBI analysis of a shoot out with a guy armed with a .45 and them with .40 cals and .223s
I found it very interesting and noteworthy especially the last sentence!
Here is the link http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf
Doh!!!
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2 center mass, 1 head. 2 center mass, 1 head. How many times have we heard that? Practiced it? But, everything changes when you are in a real gunfight and your buds are taking hits! Especially with minimally trained locals. And the assailant has the time to reload loose rounds into his mags, all in 3.5 mins? Wow!!
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2 center mass, 1 head. 2 center mass, 1 head. How many times have we heard that? Practiced it? But, everything changes when you are in a real gunfight and your buds are taking hits! Especially with minimally trained locals. And the assailant has the time to reload loose rounds into his mags, all in 3.5 mins? Wow!!
107 rounds fired and 17 hits? Sounds bad, but when you're ambushed and taking fire from out of nowhere and your buddy is hit? Its probably not half bad.
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He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1".
All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration.
According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries.
The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well.
The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on
them).
There's more to this story than is being released. NFW a 180 grain .40S&W 1.) penetrates less than 1", 2.) expanded fully with 1" of penetration. Something doesn't add up here.
Paging Dr. Mallard. Paging Dr Donald Mallard. Please report to the Medical Examiner's lab.
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There's more to this story than is being released. NFW a 180 grain .40S&W 1.) penetrates less than 1", 2.) expanded fully with 1" of penetration. Something doesn't add up here. ...
I think you misread the presentation.
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I think you misread the presentation.
He quoted what was reported on the website which the FBI examination proved was BS
FTA
Facts
• Six .40 S&W rounds, five which expanded, were
recovered on autopsy.
• It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP
ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less
penetration in a human body.
• After all .223 rounds had been fired, assailant was
hit with 180 gr. Gold Dot in right arm above the
elbow.
• Officers had to “fight” assailant in order to get
handcuffed.
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THe local ME's office was screwy or they were shooting at an alien. Nothing about those facts add up.
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I think you misread the presentation.
How so? Didn't the FBI's report make the same assertions that I did? The GDs simply can't perform the way the ME's report indicate.
If the Medical Examiner's report is accurate, how did these rounds get is such shape with so little penetration? There is no mention of shooting through barriers nor even any allusion to that (that is mentioned in a reference to a previous shooting). The bullet in his throat looks pretty pristine in the x-ray.
If I missed something in the little bit of information that was presented I would not be the least bit offended if it was pointed out. Just a lot of stuff here that doesn't add up.
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No Ichiban, the opening was what was reported via web, the actual FBI findings were at the end.
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107 rounds fired and 17 hits? Sounds bad, but when you're ambushed and taking fire from out of nowhere and your buddy is hit? Its probably not half bad.
But these are professionals that are more qualified to carry guns compared to us regular every day shlubs....
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But these are professionals that are more qualified to carry guns compared to us regular every day shlubs....
17 hits, 11 exited which most likely were not center mass hits
The presentation is not clear in what it is trying to show. Maybe that is the 'cop' mentality...just list facts in what ever order pops up without regard to building any logical pattern.....that is for the DA to do...
And about not expanding in 1" of penetration, it might depend upon the definition of 'expansion'. A round will fully expand with less than 1" of penetration against a steel plate...but that would be called flattened.
Perhaps the rounds flattened against ribs or breast bone.
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Solus, go back and read the whole article.
It starts off talking about what was REPORTED, at the end , listed under "FACTS" it tells what they actually found, and the lessons learned from it.
It seemed pretty straight forward and easy to follow to me .
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Solus, go back and read the whole article.
It starts off talking about what was REPORTED, at the end , listed under "FACTS" it tells what they actually found, and the lessons learned from it.
It seemed pretty straight forward and easy to follow to me .
That's the way I took it also.
What was originally said:
Initial Concerns of Police
• Stemmed from apparently inaccurate initial information from Coroner and/or Medical Examiner.
• Resulted in a belief by Police officials that .40 S&W ammunition failed and .223 ammunition “saved the day”.
• Prompted the SWAT TL to post information on NTOA website.
What was "inaccurately" circulating around the internet (and ended up on the FBI Website):
NTOA Blog
• All,
• The following was posted on an NTOA blog last night:
• 3 officers were involved in a shooting this week. An ambush was set up for the officers prior to their arrival, they took fire while still in their cruisers. One officer was hit in the forearm, another received wounds to his forehead from a ricochet, another was injured (NFI). The suspect was armed with a .45 handgun. The officers were armed with Glock 22's and SPEER 180 gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points.
• Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone. He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration. According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well. The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them).
• The subject was wearing a down jacket at the time of the incident. He was finally taken down after receiving rounds from an M-4 .223, with Hornady Tap 55 gr ballistic tip rounds and Hornady Tap 72 gr. Hollow Points.
• The officer with the M-4 was able to shoot underneath a vehicle and hit the suspect in the ankle. The officer then flanked the subject, who continued to engage officers, and was eventually killed by the officer with the M-4.
• The subject had a trace amount of marijuana in his system.
• Range between subject and officers: 20 feet.
• Subject had a t-shirt on under his jacket.
• Subject received approximately sixteen .223 rounds, thirteen of these rounds went completely through. One round struck his hip and completely shattered it. Another .223 round struck his aorta and another pierced and collapsed his lung. Both of these rounds lodged themselves inside the subject. The Medical Examiner stated that the .223 rounds caused massive internal damage.
• This is the second shooting that the PD has experienced where they had to shoot a subject in excess of ten times with .40 S&W ammo to incapacitate or kill. There was another incident where a subject was shot inside of his vehicle. He was struck approximately ten times, all the while continuing to fire at officers. He was eventually killed after suffering a shot to the back of his head. In this same incident, the back of the subject's seat was struck multiple times, the .40 S&W rounds never penetrated through the seat. In this incident, all shots had passed through either the windshield or rear window. Investigators assume that this was the reason for the poor ballistic performance.
So, The FBI got into the details:
FBI/DSU Involvement
• NTOA post was disseminated over the FBI’s intranet by an FBI Special Agent.
• “Snowball” effect resulted in numerous phone calls/emails to DSU and BRF which questioned the performance of FBI .40 S&W service
ammunition.
• BRF contacted the involved PD and Pa. State Police, responsible for the shooting investigation, to offer assistance.
And found:
BRF Testing of Officer’s Ammunition on 12/15/06
• Consistent with all bare gelatin and barrier testing done previously for ammunition data CD.
• Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance.
• Results of Hornady 55gr. and 75 gr. TAP do not satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance.
Facts
• At least 107 rounds (.40/.223) were fired by two officers.
• First officer on scene seriously wounded in left forearm and seat-belted in cruiser was unable to return fire.
• Assailant fired 26 rounds and reloaded magazine from box of loose ammunition.
• Assailant was shot 17 times with 11 rounds exiting body.
• Incident lasted approximately 3.5 minutes.
Facts
• Six .40 S&W rounds, five which expanded, were recovered on autopsy.
• It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body.
• After all .223 rounds had been fired, assailant was hit with 180 gr. Gold Dot in right arm above the elbow.
• Officers had to “fight” assailant in order to get handcuffed.
Lessons Learned
• There is plenty of inaccurate information regarding ballistics/terminal performance disseminated on web forums, even those which are
dedicated as LE only.
• The .40 S&W ammunition did not fail in this incident.
• The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition, although consistent with manufacturer’s claims, did not perform terminally as this Police Department expected.
Lessons Learned
• Determined individuals can sustain many gunshot wounds in areas that produce great pain and continue to fight a long time, even
without the aid of drugs or alcohol.
• Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively.
Someone, somewhere, mixed the information from the autopsy as it pertained to penetration and expansion....and then posted it as truth.
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Solus, go back and read the whole article.
It starts off talking about what was REPORTED, at the end , listed under "FACTS" it tells what they actually found, and the lessons learned from it.
It seemed pretty straight forward and easy to follow to me .
Well, part of the problem I had was that the bottom of the page with small print was missing. ....left me feeling I didn't know what was left out, so it made the rest seem as guesses to me.
I'll check it again
Update: Maybe it is just poorly worded..or I expect things to be more precise in their meaning.
For example under the BFR testing heading
Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance.
I can only assume they mean the testing of the Speer round satisfied the FBI standards ..the results are OF the testing FOR the Ammo, not of the ammo.
It also states that the Speer round passed the FBI test and the TAP .223 round did not. Well, they can't pass the same test. The FBI test is for handgun cartridges, not rifle rounds. The test has a maximum penetration in gel of 18". This is to insure that all energy is delivered to the target and indicates the round expanded enough to do so. That is not a lot of gel for a high powered rifle round.
Why put an Apples and Oranges statement in the mix.
What does "CD" mean in this statement: Consistent with all bare gelatin and barrier
testing done previously for ammunition data
CD.
Also, under Lessons learned, how much more meaningless can the statement:
The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition, although consistent with manufacturer’s claims, did not perform terminally as this Police Department expected.
be if they don't list what was expected. Did the dept. expect one shot kills with hits to a hand or foot?
From what is listed it seems the fight stopper was the shot to the right arm, likely disabling the bad guy's shooting hand allowing the officers to wrestle with him and cuff him....and he died later of .223 wounds
It just leaves way to many assumptions to be drawn from what they present for me to make many fact based observations.
Even the last line about shot placement. While I have enough common sense to know they don't mean this, there statement does leave it open. Shot placement is what matters, caliber is not important. If that was the case, we'd all be using BB guns and Air Rifles.
Maybe I'm just a grouchy old man who can't use common sense to tell what folks really mean to say, but I don't think presentations should be passed off as official and professional if they require that to have meaning.
Sorry for the rant...I guess
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I don't understand what you could find unclear about
"• Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively"
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I don't understand what you could find unclear about
"• Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively"
It is clear..just not accurate.
If placement is everything, then the caliber of the round doesn't matter...and I maintain that it does....or we'd all be using BB guns.
Though, I will say that a well placed hit with a BB is better than a miss with .50 AE, it isn't going to be much more effective at stopping the fight.
And no, I wouldn't enjoy getting shot with a .22 LR...or by a BB ...but I'd sure pick either one over a .45 ACP.
The true statement is something like: Bullet placement with the most effective round you can handle is the key to stopping a threat effectively.
P.S. I know I can go back through the threads and find this said by many here previously.
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It's unreasonable to try to attribute a statement released by the FBI for cops in the National Tactical Officers Association to relate to BB guns.
It doesn't matter what caliber is used because ALL COPS USE GUNS from 9mm to 308.
Not BB guns, pellet guns or blow guns or spitwads, real honest to God shootin' irons.
As far as the "dept's expectations" of 223 ammo, I can imagine that the dept didn't expect them to pass through the BG's body since the manufacturer's gel testing shows EXTREME expansion/fragmentation and minimum penetration.
(the Hornady catalog doesn't list a "72gr" load, I suspect this is a typo. They show a 62gr load and a 75gr load)
http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/hornady_tap_report.pdf (http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/hornady_tap_report.pdf)
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The Dept obviously did not include any military veterans with actual combat experience.
Over penetration has been a major complaint about the 5.56 from Vietnam to Mogadishu, and probably today.
Don't take my word for it.
Ask Paul Howe, he is quoted in "Blackhawk Down" as complaining about the M-16 rounds just zipping through the "skinnies" without stopping them.
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It's unreasonable to try to attribute a statement released by the FBI for cops in the National Tactical Officers Association to relate to BB guns.
It doesn't matter what caliber is used because ALL COPS USE GUNS from 9mm to 308.
Not BB guns, pellet guns or blow guns or spitwads, real honest to God shootin' irons.
As far as the "dept's expectations" of 223 ammo, I can imagine that the dept didn't expect them to pass through the BG's body since the manufacturer's gel testing shows EXTREME expansion/fragmentation and minimum penetration.
(the Hornady catalog doesn't list a "72gr" load, I suspect this is a typo. They show a 62gr load and a 75gr load)
http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/hornady_tap_report.pdf (http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/hornady_tap_report.pdf)
The report says that the .223 performed consistent with the manufactures claims, so they must have expected something other than what the manufacture claimed. I can't imagine what that might be.
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Coupla thangs based upon extended presentations I've seen regarding this incident:
- The .223 ammo used in this incident is no longer manufactured, in part because of this incident. Better stuff is available now.
- The "lethal" wound was actually a .40S&W, one of the first few hits in the fight. "Lethal", "incapacitating" and "fight stopping" are 3 different concepts, and should never be confused.
- None of the .223 rounds hit and/or destroyed vital structures. several were "grazing" wounds.
- The fight was not stopped by the wounding effects of the rifle or pistol rounds. A pistol round partially incapacitated the perp, and the fight was stopped by hands-on methods.
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It's unreasonable to try to attribute a statement released by the FBI for cops in the National Tactical Officers Association to relate to BB guns.
It doesn't matter what caliber is used because ALL COPS USE GUNS from 9mm to 308.
Not BB guns, pellet guns or blow guns or spitwads, real honest to God shootin' irons.
As far as the "dept's expectations" of 223 ammo, I can imagine that the dept didn't expect them to pass through the BG's body since the manufacturer's gel testing shows EXTREME expansion/fragmentation and minimum penetration.
(the Hornady catalog doesn't list a "72gr" load, I suspect this is a typo. They show a 62gr load and a 75gr load)
http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/hornady_tap_report.pdf (http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/hornady_tap_report.pdf)
In order to encourage officers to carry back-up and off-duty firearms, as well as to take advantage of the technological advances in firearm and ammunition construction, the Department has authorized the following .380 caliber pistols and ammunition:
Approved Pistols
Ruger LCP, caliber .380
Smith and Wesson Bodyguard, caliber .380 (LAPD SKU ONLY, no manual safety)
Approved Ammunition
Hornady Critical Defense, .380 caliber, 90 grain load
http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2011/04/20/lapd-adopts-ruger-sw-380-pistols/
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Back up and off duty are the critical words there.
I bet the primary issue weapon is still in common, regular service calibers.
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First off love the dead guys tat's. Can you say irony. Every once in a while a guy like this pops up, some tough peckerwood hard as woodpecker lips that's just not going to lay down till you put him in the ground. It's bullet sponges like this guy that lay bare how badly the three major cartridges (9mm, 40, 45) fail to stop fights. I know this report concerns the 40 but you can scrounge up near identical incidents involving the 9 & 45. Why, simple all of these calibers lie between 360ftlbs & 500ftlbs of energy and 800fps to 1150fps velocity. That is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. I am an advocate of carrying a round with no less than 1400fps with at least 550-600 foot pounds of energy. I would encourage anyone who disagree's with this to first listen to ProArms Podcast #31 where Massad Ayoob interviews Kieth Jones. A law officer involved in several shoot outs as an officer and is now a trainier. He lays out my argument far better in that interview than I ever could posting on this forum. He goes into detail about how his dept went from an average 4.8 shots per shooting with 147grn 38spcl round (183ftlbs 750fps) to 1.5 shots per shooting with the 125grn 357mag (583ftlbs 1450). The crazy thing is his dept saw a dramatic decrease in deaths they were ending fights quicker and killing less people. To summarize from the podcast people lost the will to fight even after being hit in nonlethal areas often times raising their hands to cover their head and turning away after being shot. He also comments on how the number of shots fired per incident rose after his dept converted to semi auto pistols in the wonder nine years.
I know their are some that say it is better to hit with something small & weak than to miss with something powerful. To those I would say this is a cop out dedicate yourself to training harder. No one ever said damn I brought to much gun to a gunfight. I would encourage anyone who is serious about training, strategy, and mindset to read Miyamoto Mushashi The Book of Five Rings just as in his days there are many different schools of thought today. Here we saw a person who returned fire after being hit multiple times and shoot to the ground and kept fighting. All the conventional wisdom failed the guy was shoot through the heart just like the main shooter in the Miami shoot out and wasn't put out of the fight. Some have mentioned the Mozambique drill ,really at 20 feet in the dark while being shot at? I believe that would take an incredible amount training and skill and if you have the dedication to do that you have the dedication to carry more power.
PS I'm not advocating the 357 mag even though it was used as an example here I feel there are better more powerful cartridges with less perceived recoil.
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I know their are some that say it is better to hit with something small & weak than to miss with something powerful. To those I would say this is a cop out dedicate yourself to training harder.
The above is inherently untrue and it has no application in the context of the OP which concerns Cop shootings and Cops have little or no say in what pistol they are issued.
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Massad Ayoob interviews Kieth Jones
I am very wary of using ONE source to verify my choice of tactics, calibers or anything else for that matter.
The plural of anecdote is not data. YMMV.
One only has to look at "the 5.56 sucks" to reach this level of skepticism.
Some initial reports of the M16 in combat in VN were those that said "this round is devastating".
Others were "this round sucks".
One has to weigh who's ox is getting gored. As I said, YMMV.
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Back up and off duty are the critical words there.
I bet the primary issue weapon is still in common, regular service calibers.
My point in this thread is that accuracy in making statements is important. And when the FBI starts to make statements with the stated purpose of pointing out how misinformation can be spread, it is particularly important the be clear and precise in what they say.
Your previous statement is an example of this. You said that mentioning smaller calibers was not needed because All cops used calibers greater than 9mm.
Well, my post showed that your statement was missing the caveat "Unless they use a smaller caliber for backup or personal carry"
As soon as that is acknowledged, the whole questing of caliber becomes important again,
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My point in this thread is that accuracy in making statements is important. And when the FBI starts to make statements with the stated purpose of pointing out how misinformation can be spread, it is particularly important the be clear and precise in what they say.
Your previous statement is an example of this. You said that mentioning smaller calibers was not needed because All cops used calibers greater than 9mm.
Well, my post showed that your statement was missing the caveat "Unless they use a smaller caliber for backup or personal carry"
As soon as that is acknowledged, the whole questing of caliber becomes important again,
Only to those that are trying to find zebras hiding in picket fences.
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My point in this thread is that accuracy in making statements is important. And when the FBI starts to make statements with the stated purpose of pointing out how misinformation can be spread, it is particularly important the be clear and precise in what they say.
Your previous statement is an example of this. You said that mentioning smaller calibers was not needed because All cops used calibers greater than 9mm.
Well, my post showed that your statement was missing the caveat "Unless they use a smaller caliber for backup or personal carry"
As soon as that is acknowledged, the whole questing of caliber becomes important again,
But since the article never mentioned anything but .40 and 5.56 you whole thing is just wasting bytes. ::)
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But since the article never mentioned anything but .40 and 5.56 you whole thing is just wasting bytes. ::)
Another inaccuracy.
What caliber was the bad guy using?
And, yes...I am trying to find zebras hiding in the picket fence....or, in my view, usable information in the chaff.
The only valuable bit I found was that there are a lot of inaccuracies put out on the web. Perhaps that was the point of the article and they helped to illustrate it.
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I'm not here to play the game of this one caliber sucks and this other caliber is the answer and if you had listened to the interview I suggested you would have heard that even though this police dept was carrying a higher power cartridge and getting great results, other departments were not getting the same results the difference was that their dept trained twice a month versus two days a year. The point is this metropolitan police force that was getting decent training and range time was a great testing ground for ammo as there were multiple incidents with trained personal providing the least amount of variables. In that interview they specifically talk about the 40 S&W and advocated the 155-165grn round over the 180grn due to its higher velocity and better ability to transfer energy. Interesting enough an officer using the 165grn Ranger T-Series had a one stop shot on a charging black bear @ 20 feet during the Ohio wild animal release(Lions,Tigers & Bears oh my). So maybe there is something to this.
As far as police yes large depts in many areas dictate what gun and round you can carry but many do not I live in the west in the fourth largest city in my state and our officers can carry what they want off of an approved list if they provide their own ammo for training. Same with our sheriff's dept & state patrol. I'm a citizen so I'll carry what I want. As far as the 5.56 I don't care It's not what I use. As with every incident I examine I try to take from it what I can learn and leave the rest. To go back to the interview I suggested, Your in a fight your looking for the weapon that you are using to have an affect so that you can close and end the fight turning the fight so your opponent feels he is losing giving you the opportunity to dominate the conflict. Either the officers involved in the shooting did not capitalize on their hits to gain the advantage to end the fight or they were not given the chance to capitalized because their hits were taken without affect. That is the real question here.
Finally here's a scenario you come out to your car a guy is walking around the parking lot muttering to himself you see him turn and run at you with a butcher knife (or whatever knife suits you) you empty your 380 pocket rocket @ him in that classic two shots to the body
one to the head hitting him every time. He chases you down as you are running away and kills you. Why well one of your shots was right on the money to the heart but it hit this pesky thing called the breast bone and stop 3/8th's of an inch from the heart after flattening out(this actually happened with a 40S&W in the case I saw) the other hit the lung he'll die from his lung collapsing but not for another 10-15min about the time you finally bleed out. What about your head shot well you shot a tad high missing that 2"X 6" killzone and the bullet followed the ogive of his skull leaving him with a hard lead lump under his scalp back by his neck you next head shot hits him check not entering the brain pan and blowing out the back of the neck a rather harmless wound all and all. And that is how you die after getting you hits you die quicker if the guy has a gun. Hits need to have an effect not everyones going to turn rabbit or lay down and cry cause they got shot even though most do. If only hits counted we would all carry airsoft. To be clear I think one should carry the maximum power they have trained up to and can carry within reason (no red flyer wagon for carting around the 500 S&W) If its 9mm 115+P+ or 125+p and up and so on.
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So, you seem to be saying a person would get better results from the .44 magnum they left in the car because it was to heavy to carry 24/7 ?
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Just a side comment to the effect that I have trouble with run-on sentences, bad logic and arguments based upon raw conjecture.
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Why does everyone go to extremes. ::) First it was someone throwing out the 50 AE now it's the 44 mag. What about the 357 Sig or the 10mm Those are viable steps up in power. I don't carry the 44mag or the 357mag very often for several reasons 1. I can get similar power in that range from a striker fired pistol that greatly reduce (perceived) recoil due to their low bore axis. 2 I don't like the lack of capacity even with speed strips or loaders. As far as not carrying you gun cause it's heavy that up to you I've found a system that works for me and carry during all my nonworking hours even in my house and yard I really don't notice it anymore.
One reason people don't carry these calibers is the cost of training and ammo. However with most of the striker fired pistols in these calibers you can get conversion barrels so you can train with cheap 40 S&W or 9mm. So your never without ammo even if your main defensive ammo gets scarce.
That raw conjecture was a combination of 4 different real life shootings where people made hits and the bullets didn't perform as expected and didn't stop the aggressor. ( The one through the cheek was a cop shoot by a guy with a 357mag @ point blank range he thought of his kids got back up and killed the guy who had let his guard down after "shooting the threat in the head")
Final thing, I found Michael's podcast this week especially meaningful. When I first transitioned to the gun I carry I wasn't as proficient as I wanted to be (some day's I downright sucked) I didn't blame it on the gun's fit or the recoil or my hand size. I redoubled my efforts to focusing on the fundamentals and step by step I got better and better. I couldn't agree more with his lesson on not being afraid to fail in your effort to learn.
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I picked the .44 mag for my example because every one would understand that it's a heavy gun to carry.
That isn't necessarily the case with an issue size gun like a 1911 . I have no problem carrying mine everyday .
But I don't have it with me when I'm wearing sweats, or a bathrobe.
My Kel Tec is on my person if I'm walking around the house in my skivvies .
The only 2 places the Kel Tec is not actually on my person are in bed or in the shower.
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Interestly enough Talo's version of the Smith & Wesson 3 inch weighs 39.6 oz only 1.6 oz over a full size kimber. Still that's only a 3 inch barrel. However back to the what this threads really about, this shooting. To bad there's not more info. I wonder If the bullet in the guys neck possible went through the sheet metal of the car or window glass? It didn't penetrate very far and that may be the reason. Some one tell me if this is wrong (or I missed some important info) it looks like most of the 5.56 rounds hit while the perpetrator was lying on the ground after the officer shot under his cruiser and blew the guys foot out (nasty) causing him to "possible?" fall with his upper torso behind the wheel and axle. If so that would explain the shots crossing the body and being mainly focused in the lower body. The officer may have been shooting at all there was available. No way to know if this was what happened but the indicators are there that it could have gone down that way.