FBI analysis of a shoot out - NSFW and the squeamish

[ZombieTactics]

Coupla thangs based upon extended presentations I've seen regarding this incident:

• The .223 ammo used in this incident is no longer manufactured, in part because of this incident. Better stuff is available now.
• The "lethal" wound was actually a .40S&W, one of the first few hits in the fight. "Lethal", "incapacitating" and "fight stopping" are 3 different concepts, and should never be confused.
• None of the .223 rounds hit and/or destroyed vital structures. several were "grazing" wounds.
• The fight was not stopped by the wounding effects of the rifle or pistol rounds. A pistol round partially incapacitated the perp, and the fight was stopped by hands-on methods.
  

[Solus]

It's unreasonable to try to attribute a statement released by the FBI for cops in the National Tactical Officers Association to relate to BB guns.
It doesn't matter what caliber is used because ALL COPS USE GUNS from 9mm to 308.
 
Not BB guns, pellet guns or blow guns or spitwads, real honest to God shootin' irons.

As far as the "dept's expectations" of 223 ammo, I can imagine that the dept didn't expect them to pass through the BG's body since the manufacturer's gel testing shows EXTREME expansion/fragmentation and minimum penetration.

(the Hornady catalog doesn't list a "72gr" load, I suspect this is a typo. They show a 62gr load and a 75gr load)

http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/hornady_tap_report.pdf

In order to encourage officers to carry back-up and off-duty firearms, as well as to take advantage of the technological advances in firearm and ammunition construction, the  Department has authorized the following .380 caliber pistols and ammunition:

Approved Pistols
Ruger LCP, caliber .380
Smith and Wesson Bodyguard, caliber .380 (LAPD SKU ONLY, no manual safety)

Approved Ammunition
Hornady Critical Defense, .380 caliber, 90 grain load

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2011/04/20/lapd-adopts-ruger-sw-380-pistols/

[kmitch200]

Back up and off duty are the critical words there.
I bet the primary issue weapon is still in common, regular service calibers.

[TWillis]

First off love the dead guys tat's. Can you say irony. Every once in a while a guy like this pops up, some tough peckerwood hard as woodpecker lips that's just not going to lay down till you put him in the ground. It's bullet sponges like this guy that lay bare how badly the three major cartridges (9mm, 40, 45) fail to stop fights. I know this report concerns the 40 but you can scrounge up near identical incidents involving the 9 & 45. Why, simple all of these calibers lie between 360ftlbs & 500ftlbs of energy and 800fps to 1150fps velocity. That is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. I am an advocate of carrying a round with no less than 1400fps with at least 550-600 foot pounds of energy. I would encourage anyone who disagree's with this to first listen to ProArms Podcast #31 where  Massad Ayoob interviews Kieth Jones. A law officer involved in several shoot outs as an officer and is now a trainier. He lays out my argument far better in that interview than I ever could posting on this forum. He goes into detail about how his dept went from an average 4.8 shots per shooting with 147grn 38spcl round (183ftlbs 750fps) to 1.5 shots per shooting with the 125grn 357mag (583ftlbs 1450). The crazy thing is his dept saw a dramatic decrease in deaths they were ending fights quicker and killing less people. To summarize from the podcast people lost the will to fight even after being hit in nonlethal areas often times raising their hands to cover their head and turning away after being shot. He also comments on how the number of shots fired per incident rose after his dept converted to semi auto pistols in the wonder nine years.
      I know their are some that say it is better to hit with something small & weak than to miss with something powerful. To those I would say this is a cop out dedicate yourself to training harder. No one ever said damn I brought to much gun to a gunfight. I would encourage anyone who is serious about training, strategy, and mindset to read Miyamoto Mushashi The Book of Five Rings just as in his days there are many different schools of thought today. Here we saw a person who returned fire after being hit multiple times and shoot to the ground and kept fighting. All the conventional wisdom failed the guy was shoot through the heart just like the main shooter in the Miami shoot out and wasn't put out of the fight. Some have mentioned the Mozambique drill ,really at 20 feet in the dark while being shot at? I believe that would take an incredible amount  training and skill and if you have the dedication to do that you have the dedication to carry more power.
PS I'm not advocating the 357 mag even though it was used as an example here I feel there are better more powerful cartridges with less perceived recoil.

[tombogan03884]

  I know their are some that say it is better to hit with something small & weak than to miss with something powerful. To those I would say this is a cop out dedicate yourself to training harder.

The above is inherently untrue and it has no application in the context of the OP which concerns Cop shootings and Cops have little or no say in what pistol they are issued.

[Sponsor]

[kmitch200]

Massad Ayoob interviews Kieth Jones

I am very wary of using ONE source to verify my choice of tactics, calibers or anything else for that matter.
The plural of anecdote is not data.  YMMV.

One only has to look at "the 5.56 sucks" to reach this level of skepticism.
Some initial reports of the M16 in combat in VN were those that said "this round is devastating".
Others were "this round sucks".
One has to weigh who's ox is getting gored. As I said, YMMV.

[Solus]

Back up and off duty are the critical words there.
I bet the primary issue weapon is still in common, regular service calibers.

My point in this thread is that accuracy in making statements is important.  And when the FBI starts to make statements with the stated purpose of pointing out how misinformation can be spread, it is particularly important the be clear and precise in what they say.

Your previous statement is an example of this.  You said that mentioning smaller calibers was not needed because All cops used calibers greater than 9mm. 

Well, my post showed that your statement was missing the caveat  "Unless they use a smaller caliber for backup or personal carry"

As soon as that is acknowledged, the whole questing of caliber becomes important again,

[kmitch200]

My point in this thread is that accuracy in making statements is important.  And when the FBI starts to make statements with the stated purpose of pointing out how misinformation can be spread, it is particularly important the be clear and precise in what they say.
Your previous statement is an example of this.  You said that mentioning smaller calibers was not needed because All cops used calibers greater than 9mm. 
Well, my post showed that your statement was missing the caveat  "Unless they use a smaller caliber for backup or personal carry"
As soon as that is acknowledged, the whole questing of caliber becomes important again,

Only to those that are trying to find zebras hiding in picket fences.

[tombogan03884]

My point in this thread is that accuracy in making statements is important.  And when the FBI starts to make statements with the stated purpose of pointing out how misinformation can be spread, it is particularly important the be clear and precise in what they say.

Your previous statement is an example of this.  You said that mentioning smaller calibers was not needed because All cops used calibers greater than 9mm. 

Well, my post showed that your statement was missing the caveat  "Unless they use a smaller caliber for backup or personal carry"

As soon as that is acknowledged, the whole questing of caliber becomes important again,

But since the article never mentioned anything but .40 and 5.56 you whole thing is just wasting bytes.   

[Solus]

But since the article never mentioned anything but .40 and 5.56 you whole thing is just wasting bytes.   

Another inaccuracy. 

What caliber was the bad guy using?

And, yes...I am trying to find zebras hiding in the picket fence....or, in my view, usable information in the chaff.

The only valuable bit I found was that there are a lot of inaccuracies put out on the web.  Perhaps that was the point of the article and they helped to illustrate it.