The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: TAB on February 16, 2015, 04:22:08 AM
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some asshat just stole my car out of my driveway. I hate thieves more than anything else.
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Ohp just called, they are chasing the bastard now.
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Wouldn't have that problem if you drove a Kia.
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Ohp is still here, got it back. Some young women, under 20. Lucky she was not shot.
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Glad you got it back.
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Let me see if I have the facts.
A teenage girl, broke in your car, disabled the steering wheel lock, hot-wired the ignition and stole your car?
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TAB,
You do realize that this is a public forum, and you have just made comments and threats concerning murdering a person who has made no threat on your life of physical condition don't you?
There is a 99%, and that is not some made up number, that if you are ever involved in a self-defense shooting that this thread will show up.
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Another cold war, if engineers can build it, others can figure out how to get around it.
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Let me see if I have the facts.
A teenage girl, broke in your car, disabled the steering wheel lock, hot-wired the ignition and stole your car?
master key.
all car manufactures only make about a dozen different key patterns per year per model. it's very easy to get ahold of if you know people at the dealer level.
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TAB,
You do realize that this is a public forum, and you have just made comments and threats concerning murdering a person who has made no threat on your life of physical condition don't you?
There is a 99%, and that is not some made up number, that if you are ever involved in a self-defense shooting that this thread will show up.
I am NOT worried at all.
for one thing the likelihood is very low. the second is I honestly don't give a s***
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master key.
all car manufactures only make about a dozen different key patterns per year per model. it's very easy to get ahold of if you know people at the dealer level.
How old is the vehicle?
Hell, my 12 year old PU has programmable keys and you need at least one of them to program the other unless the dealership does the programming!
On another note, if you think someone needs to die because they stole your car then maybe you have bigger problems than you know!
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2005, all they have to do is plug in the scanner put the key in and it takes about 30 seconds, they do not need the old key. had one made at the dealer in Portland not too long ago. which is entirely possible they made a copy of it but I doubt it.
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Relax people, I believe what TAB meant was that if he had CAUGHT her, he would have shot, can't say I blame him.
On the other hand if he knows any of the local dirt bags he can still have her beaten in jail. ;D
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I would bet she was cut free at 6 a.m.. that's how they roll these days
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I'm sure what TAB meant was that she was lucky she did not do anything to precipitate her being shot while being apprehended.
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Tom believes and solus is sure, but IF anything would ever take place TAB just made his attorney's job tougher. And that I know for a fact based on the writings and speaking of defense attorneys concerning carry laws and defense, and discussion with my own attorney.
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Tom believes and solus is sure, but IF anything would ever take place TAB just made his attorney's job tougher. And that I know for a fact based on the writings and speaking of defense attorneys concerning carry laws and defense, and discussion with my own attorney.
TAB's comment shows his lack of maturity and poor judgment. Two things that are of utmost importance when dealing with a firearm!
The car ain't the problem...
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1st Amendment is there to protect what TAB want's to say, not what you want to hear. Besides, the horse crap about making a future defense more difficult is easily countered with a defense of being stated under the stress of the moment.
Being pussies about stuff like this is part of the reason the Gov thinks they can ban types of .223 ammo.
You fall for PC BS and place yourselves at their mercy.
If you don't have guts enough to say what you are thinking you don't deserve any rights.
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I never said he didn't have the right to say the words.
It appears to me that he has some anger management issues.
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I'd say he was perfectly justified. Letting scum get away with this crap is why it has become so common.
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I'd say he was perfectly justified. Letting scum get away with this crap is why it has become so common.
I gotta go with this. If a few of these deadbeats got plugged in the process of stealing others peoples goods, perhaps they would think about working and buying their own. This is where Texas has Arizona beat. Had Tab been living there and saw the incident take place, and in the process unleashed a few rounds that would have sent her to some other place, he would have walked. Texas allows deadly force to protect property. Something every state in the union should allow. People in this country had better start thinking with a little more balls. Kudos to the cops in this matter. 4:22 AM car stolen........ 6:46 AM gets it back. Any damage Tab?
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I gotta go with this. If a few of these deadbeats got plugged in the process of stealing others peoples goods, perhaps they would think about working and buying their own. This is where Texas has Arizona beat. Had Tab been living there and saw the incident take place, and in the process unleashed a few rounds that would have sent her to some other place, he would have walked. Texas allows deadly force to protect property. Something every state in the union should allow. People in this country had better start thinking with a little more balls. Kudos to the cops in this matter. 4:22 AM car stolen........ 6:46 AM gets it back. Any damage Tab?
Killing or maiming someone over property that is most likely insured is DUMB!! with a Capital D.
It may make you feel all macho but unless you have 50-100+k to throw away, it's stupid.
(I don't mean to call YOU, billt, stupid - that is not my intent. The idea of killng for STUFF is stupid IMO)
Someone had his vehicle for a couple of hours?? Who gives a shit?
It's not like he's liable for anything they did.....again, who gives a shit? The cops sure don't! The insurance companies don't!
Your *best* solution is to send that person to the morgue? I pity your defense attorney. This thread comes up after you kill someone for stealing property - - and it will - - you and your attorney are fooked.
Someone steals my truck? Have fun, it's a hunk of metal. I was looking for a new truck when I bought this one.
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I pity your defense attorney. This thread comes up after you kill someone for stealing property - - and it will - - you and your attorney are fooked.
I live in Arizona, not Texas.
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You people who are willing to tolerate having some shitbag steal the produce of your labor deserve to be robbed and taxed.
It's your cowardly "tolerance" that has allowed such crimes to become so common.
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Tom,
There are crimes that warrant the death penalty. However, theft of property with no personal contact or threat involved does not rise to this level of threat. If TAB, or you, are that attached to your material goods I suggest you secure them well, and then find help to reprioritize your life. You might also want to look into anger management counciling.
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You people who are willing to tolerate having some shitbag steal the produce of your labor deserve to be robbed and taxed.
It's your cowardly "tolerance" that has allowed such crimes to become so common.
Again I couldn't agree more. We all pay for this. And it's far more expensive than most would think. This foolish attitude, that just because something is insured so....., "who gives a $h!t", costs everyone except the worthless $h!tbag who takes it. Ever wonder what your home and car insurance premiums would be if car theft and home burglary were close to non existent? Less....... A LOT less. Why do you think insurance companies give such large discounts for home and vehicle policies with alarm systems installed? Look at insurance rates for rural, low crime areas, and compare them to urban inner city, high crime areas. Again, innocent people have to pay because of some worthless pile of crap. Along with their intentions that almost always turn violent.
How many people are killed in home invasions and car jacking's every year? How many innocents are beaten in muggings? How many are shot and killed in robbery attempts? All of this happens to law abiding citizens over "stuff", you seem to think isn't worth taking some dirt bags life over. And on the flip side, I'm supposed to feel bad for killing some piece of $h!t because he wants what I've spent a good portion of my life working to be able to buy? Bull$h!t. And it has nothing to do with "anger". It involves common principal.
Your kind of liberal tolerance breeds this kind of crap. And this type of leniency is exactly why we have so much of it. "Being attached to your goods", doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. Most of these types would stab, shoot, or beat you to the end of your life, in order to take what is rightfully yours. I possess the same attitude to keep it. And it isn't because, "I'm so attached to it". We used to hang horse thieves in this country. You see what direction we've been going since we stopped.
The biggest problem with people who possess your progressive attitude of generosity and leniency, is most of you, if ever confronted, won't live long enough to enjoy the warm and fuzzy feeling it gave you to act so foolishly to begin with.
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You people who are willing to tolerate having some shitbag steal the produce of your labor deserve to be robbed and taxed.
It's your cowardly "tolerance" that has allowed such crimes to become so common.
+1 !
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It's worth noting that during the Revolution only 6% of the population had guts enough to stand up for their beliefs on either side.
The other 94% just sat around bleating like the sheep they were.
Some things never change.
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I remember when I was a kid, no one locked their doors in their house or car. Today nobody would build a house, or buy a new car without some type of anti theft device installed. You used to have to hunt to find a store that sold bicycle locks. I left mine laying in the front yard most every night. Now you wouldn't leave a bike unattended for 2 minutes without one attached. Look at the discipline in school classrooms today. It's all but non existent. Kids tell their teachers to go F*#K themselves, and today aren't even at risk of expulsion because of it. On a more serious level, look at what ISIS is doing.
The plain and simple truth as to why all of this is happening can be contained in a single word. LENIENCY. That, along with this stupid, senseless level of tolerance we have come to accept over the years. Everything I've mentioned in the above paragraph takes place because we are tolerant of it, and we LET IT. How many home burglaries would take place if 90% of them were shot dead on sight? How many kids would be so quick to tell their teachers to go F*#K themselves, if the teacher backhanded them into next week? Like they would have when I was in PUBLIC SCHOOL. How many people would ISIS be beheading if we sent in a multi national task force and attacked and killed them with the wrath of God, until not one existed?
Tolerance and leniency breeds this kind of worthless $h!t, along with the worthless $h!tbags who commit these acts. The more we keep thinking along these lines of leniency, the worse all of this will become. This country has become a nation of gutless pussies who are to afraid to stand up to anything.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_theft
Sudan doesn't have much. But they've got this right.
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Allow me to say this again: I am not against punishing those who do this. However, we are civilized humans, and there is appropriate reaction. We act to stop the threat, and we act according to the threat presented. There is a big difference between a car jacking or home invasion, and stealing your parked car from your driveway or pink flamingos from your backyard when everybody is asleep.
If TAB does not get satisfaction from the legal system he has the right to file a suit against the thief. That is what we can all do to change or correct the system, cooperate with the Courts, and file our own suits when the system fails.
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You'd quietly climb into the cattle car if that were the law.
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How many people are killed in home invasions and car jacking's every year? How many innocents are beaten in muggings? How many are shot and killed in robbery attempts? All of this happens to law abiding citizens over "stuff", you seem to think isn't worth taking some dirt bags life over. And on the flip side, I'm supposed to feel bad for killing some piece of $h!t because he wants what I've spent a good portion of my life working to be able to buy? Bull$h!t. And it has nothing to do with "anger". It involves common principal.
Nobody said anything about the above bolded actions which are deadly threats. We're talking about an unoccupied vehicle getting stolen. Using deadly force to stop imminent deadly force is quite different than using deadly force to protect property just because of "principal".
"Liberal tolerance" and "progressive attitude of generosity and leniency" have nothing to do with the discussion..and quite frankly I don't believe I possess either one.
It's called living in real world. In case nobody noticed, it isn't 1840 anymore.
If you think your insurance is expensive, try paying for a criminal attorney in a murder trial.
By some astronomically huge leap of magical thinking, saying that simple theft doesn't in my mind rise to the level of deadly force, that's conflated to: I'm OK or happy! with getting ripped off, mugging is cool, wouldn't defend my home if invaded and are responsible for the degradation of schools, society in general, probably littering and damned kids on your lawn.
Again: If you think your insurance is expensive, try paying for a criminal attorney in a murder trial. Because I (like you) live in AZ where shooting someone for trying to break into/steal an unoccupied vehicle is frowned on. Not just a "tsk tsk" from the neighbors or a warning from a cop not to do it again but PRISON FOR DECADES.
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If you think your insurance is expensive, try paying for a criminal attorney in a murder trial. Because I (like you) live in AZ where shooting someone for trying to break into/steal an unoccupied vehicle is frowned on.
This is why we need to change Arizona laws to be in line with what Texas has, in regards to allowing lethal force to protect one's personal property. In fact every state needs to. What good is a law that does nothing but help to keep scumbag criminals alive? If you don't want to get shot and killed, DON'T STEAL!
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Allow me to say this again: I am not against punishing those who do this. However, we are civilized humans, and there is appropriate reaction. We act to stop the threat, and we act according to the threat presented. There is a big difference between a car jacking or home invasion, and stealing your parked car from your driveway or pink flamingos from your backyard when everybody is asleep.
If TAB does not get satisfaction from the legal system he has the right to file a suit against the thief. That is what we can all do to change or correct the system, cooperate with the Courts, and file our own suits when the system fails.
What do you think would have happened in Ferguson the night they read the verdict, if the cops would have shot dead the first 3 looters they saw?
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Bill, He claims to be a "civilized human" that is ALWAYS the claim made by castrated sheep.
They forget that the only thing between "civilization" and the barbarians is people who will kill for what's right, such as life and property.
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You fall for PC BS and place yourselves at their mercy.
If you don't have guts enough to say what you are thinking you don't deserve any rights.
AND:
You people who are willing to tolerate having some shitbag steal the produce of your labor deserve to be robbed and taxed.
It's your cowardly "tolerance" that has allowed such crimes to become so common.
AND:
You'd quietly climb into the cattle car if that were the law.
AND:
He claims to be a "civilized human" that is ALWAYS the claim made by castrated sheep.
They forget that the only thing between "civilization" and the barbarians is people who will kill for what's right, such as life and property.
Your Internet Bravado bull$hit gets so tedious.
Save it for some 10 year old kid that might be impressed by the blowhard puffed up punk garbage that you think builds up your Man Of Action! deluded vision of yourself.
I will give you credit where credit is due though...You certainly can talk a big game.
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So if it was my truck and enclosed trailer they were taking, should I shoot them? That is my livelihood. About 250k invested, it is how I feed my family, I take that very seriously and yes its insured, but it would take months to get it sorted out. Thats months I would not be earning money. So yeah I would shoot to kill.
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So yeah I would shoot to kill.
And you should have that right.
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If you were finishing your morning coffee and noticed someone trying to steal your car, would you call 911 and pour another cup and enjoy it while you waited for the law?
No personal contact has been made and any interaction on your part would escalate it to where that might occur.
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no, but I would have a cup of coffee after I chased them off with a shotgun. the police can fallow the piss trail.
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no, but I would have a cup of coffee after I chased them off with a shotgun. the police can fallow the piss trail.
This is just one of a thousand ways a crime of common theft can escalate into a shooting situation.........
I should also add the only way to avoid it is to peacefully submit, and allow it to take place. Speaking only for myself, I don't have the stomach or the temperament for that.
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Hey KMitch, You really don't get it.
I tone down my comments for this public forum.
You find it easy to class someone you know nothing about as an internet commando, but I don't see you or your ilk suggesting any alternative except submission.
At least I have the courage to take a stand for what I believe, what do you have ?
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The populace in this country is getting more submissive all the time, by basically coming up with better ways to be wimps. While all of our enemies are becoming more emboldened every day. One type of behavior fuels the other. This is not going to end well.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_theft
Sudan doesn't have much. But they've got this right.
To be fair, there probably isn't much worth stealing over there. What are you going to do, report a guy for stealing your dirt?
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You'd quietly climb into the cattle car if that were the law.
That is no where in my comments Tom!
To Tom and TAB's latest comment about his truck and trailer, if you material goods are so valuable that you would take a life over them when there is no threat to your person I suggest you take better care of where you leave them.
Before you go off on a rant Tom, I am not talking about the government stripping TAB of his constitutional protections, or sending him off to a death camp. I am talking about a person stealing personal property with no physical threat or harm to any person. That is where this all started.
Once again, I agree that our system is broken, but killing over a car theft is no better than letting the crook go. In fact, killing over a stolen car is worse in my opinion, and I am a person who is willing to "stop the threat" if you come after me or mine with a threat to health or life.
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If you were arriving home and as you approached your house, you saw a 19 year old making trips into your unoccupied home and hauling out your stuff and putting it in a pickup truck, would you get the license number of the truck, call 911 and park at the corner till the police showed up?
What if you were home and that 19 year old knocked on the door and politely asked yo to go out and stand in your back yard so no one would get hurt while he took some of your stuff?
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Once again, I agree that our system is broken, but killing over a car theft is no better than letting the crook go. In fact, killing over a stolen car is worse in my opinion and I am a person who is willing to "stop the threat"........
You can't "stop the threat" any better than by killing them. Once they're dead, it's game over....... For good. I'm sure the world will still go round and round with one less $h!tbag in it.
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What if you were home and that 19 year old knocked on the door and politely asked yo to go out and stand in your back yard so no one would get hurt while he took some of your stuff?
I'd look for Allen Funt, then slam the door on his face.
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That is no where in my comments Tom!
To Tom and TAB's latest comment about his truck and trailer, if you material goods are so valuable that you would take a life over them when there is no threat to your person I suggest you take better care of where you leave them.
Before you go off on a rant Tom, I am not talking about the government stripping TAB of his constitutional protections, or sending him off to a death camp. I am talking about a person stealing personal property with no physical threat or harm to any person. That is where this all started.
Once again, I agree that our system is broken, but killing over a car theft is no better than letting the crook go. In fact, killing over a stolen car is worse in my opinion, and I am a person who is willing to "stop the threat" if you come after me or mine with a threat to health or life.
it's not the cost of the goods, my livelihood and how I feed my family that is. how would you feel if someone came and stole your job out from under you
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........ And this type of leniency is exactly why we have so much of it. "Being attached to your goods", doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. Most of these types would stab, shoot, or beat you to the end of your life, in order to take what is rightfully yours. I possess the same attitude to keep it. And it isn't because, "I'm so attached to it". We used to hang horse thieves in this country. You see what direction we've been going since we stopped.
Bingo.
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it's not the cost of the goods, my livelihood and how I feed my family that is. how would you feel if someone came and stole your job out from under you
And this boys and girls is why we park our vehicles in buildings. By the way, loss of job does not cross the line of reasonable man being in fear of great bodily harm or death.
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I would love to park it inside. my garage is not anywhere deep enough. long bed crew cab truck. 14 foot enclosed trailer. not to mention the fact that the trailer is too tall. the truck is a hair over 20 the trailer is 18 and a half. the trailer is 10'2" tall. let's forget the fact that my garage is full of a boat and tools. there is a reason why I park it on the side of the house behind a locked gate. not everyone has a bunch of space to store things. I could not build a structure large enough on my property to store it. buying property large enough to do so is also out of the question right now. it would literally cost me about 500,000 dollars just for the land. probably about 1.2 by the time I'm done building house, a barn and getting the necessary services to it. that's me building it, only hiring out the slab, and excavations...anyone want to loan me a million dollars? things are not cheap here, they are not California expenseive, but they are not cheap.
when I can build a house for about $80 a square foot, and a barn for 20. between the well , septic, power it would cost somewhere around $400,000. that alone is more than 3 times I have invested in my home. so yeah, I should start on that project right now.
things are not black and white in the real world. whether I like it or not being construction is who I am. just like you can't take the ghetto out of a n....
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Cost of doing business TAB. Every business man decides what it costs to operate, and then prices accordingly.
Contractors in our area who don't have the space at home purchase or lease space where tools, equipment, and supplies can be stored. Insurance savings, convenience, maintenance savings, and ability to stock pile supplies all add up to pay for a storage building in a hurry. When our electrician built his new building he added overhead doors front and back with room for both his trucks inside. He also included ability to wash without endangering his warehoused supplies. After the first year he could document that his labor savings were paying for ALL the utilities in the entire building. The ability to park close to his supplies for quick restocking of the vehicles, and the ability to have his supplies delivered into the controlled space save time he was paying for. Even with the penalty for parking vehicles in the building he is paying less overall for insurance due to protection of equipment.
We even have local farmers and truckers putting up 20'x90' insulated and heated buildings with 16' overhead doors on both ends to park their rigs in. They are cash flowing the added expense of the shop by being able to run #2 fuel year round.
We have never figured out the value of putting the trucks and pickups inside, but the increased trade in value of equipment due to being shedded pays for most uninsulated sheds within ten years.
All in how you set up your business plan.
The bottom line, and an attempt to stay on topic, is that it is all about avoiding issues rather than being careless and contributing to the problem. Just like locks keep honest people honest, controlling your property does the same without crossing the line of the reasonable man.
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let me ask you guys this, if some one was stealing your car, would you confront them?
would you do it unarmed?
as billt said, that's how it can lead to a shooting very quickly. its not much of a stretch to think some one committing a felony would be willing to commit another felony by illegally carrying a fire arm.
anyone that really believes I would shoot to kill if they stopped trying to steal my car does not know me at all, but any threating movments would result in them being shot, I would be in fear for my life/limb at that point. no one wants to shoot anyone, but I will be damned if I will sit by and let them take it. more so if I have the means to stop them. I have had way to much stuff taken from me over the years. at least once a year I have had several hundred dollars worth of tools stolen from me.
guess what, insurance does not cover that. $1000 deductible, so unless then take a lot, its not worth filing. guess who pays for that? every one I work for, I mean everyone. yes theft is a part of doing business, but it should not be.
in 2011 300 mill in just heavy equipment was stolen. its estimated that industry wide is 1 bill a year in this country.
in 2003 the national ass of homebuilders did study of act reported theft said that 1.471% of the cost of your home was due to theft. that was 2003 and only a small group of contractors 140k in total. that's tiny fraction of the nations total number of contractors( hell ca has that in just general contractors. )
like it or not, theft is a huge prob, insurance is nice, but at the end of the day, it still comes out of every ones pockets. at the very least its going to cost me a grand and several hours of my time. time that I really don't have to spend on crap like that.
trucks are not cheap these days. even 15 year old diesel pick ups are selling for 20k( look up ford 250-350s with the 7.3 power stroke pre 2001.5) new trucks are $$$ for what I have now only 2015 its $52302 and its nothing fancy. just a cloth seat, 4x4 crew cab long bed diesel.
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Cost of doing business TAB. Every business man decides what it costs to operate, and then prices accordingly.
Contractors in our area who don't have the space at home purchase or lease space where tools, equipment, and supplies can be stored. Insurance savings, convenience, maintenance savings, and ability to stock pile supplies all add up to pay for a storage building in a hurry. When our electrician built his new building he added overhead doors front and back with room for both his trucks inside. He also included ability to wash without endangering his warehoused supplies. After the first year he could document that his labor savings were paying for ALL the utilities in the entire building. The ability to park close to his supplies for quick restocking of the vehicles, and the ability to have his supplies delivered into the controlled space save time he was paying for. Even with the penalty for parking vehicles in the building he is paying less overall for insurance due to protection of equipment.
We even have local farmers and truckers putting up 20'x90' insulated and heated buildings with 16' overhead doors on both ends to park their rigs in. They are cash flowing the added expense of the shop by being able to run #2 fuel year round.
We have never figured out the value of putting the trucks and pickups inside, but the increased trade in value of equipment due to being shedded pays for most uninsulated sheds within ten years.
All in how you set up your business plan.
The bottom line, and an attempt to stay on topic, is that it is all about avoiding issues rather than being careless and contributing to the problem. Just like locks keep honest people honest, controlling your property does the same without crossing the line of the reasonable man.
you seem to forget, I am just a small fry, me and 3 part time guys( all retired that do it because they love it and are very good at what they do) yes, I did 1.5 mill last year in gross, that's a drop in the bucket for most contractors. I made a little better then industry standard for a GC that being between 3-5% of gross, I made ~7%. a good chunk of that came from me consulting, rather then actually working. with out that I would have been right smack in the middle of that range.
you can call it what ever you want, just remember at least 1% of what you spend on a construction project goes straight to the thief. so when can I sign you up for $100k remodel?
make a check out to me for 99 and one for 1 to "meth head"
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let me ask you guys this, if some one was stealing your car, would you confront them?
Are you in the car or close to it? If not, a simple shout command or question as to what is going on, and then avoid confrontation, and call 911. If I am in the car or close, it is do what needed to survive. Every situation is different, and just because you have a hammer doesn't make them all nails.
Your thread title of "Shoot to kill" is what started this whole issue of hot headed over reaction, and that is what would come up if you are ever in an incident. Don't believe me, check out what they drug George Zimmerman through. Granted, he had issues, and he has had some since, but everything they could dig up was used to paint him as a racist hunter.
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Large or small every business man has expenses. Our sheds that used to house every bit of our equipment to farm 1,000+ acres and maintain livestock will fit inside a single shed on the neighbor's yard, and he has four of them - One is twice the size of our largest, and it is his insulated and heated shop (he can unfold his 80' planter and 120' sprayer inside at the same time with the tractors attached.
Weather you paint two houses a year, or farm 5,000 acres, you need to include cost of equipment and housing it in your business plan and cash flow. How many hours a month do you bill, and what would you need to increase your rate to if you were to lease a building for$1,000 per month? Two full time on average (175 hours per month each) would mean $2.86/hour/man increase in your charge. This isn't even considering savings listed in my earlier post.
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And this boys and girls is why we park our vehicles in buildings. By the way, loss of job does not cross the line of reasonable man being in fear of great bodily harm or death.
Might not take much to break into a garage and steal the vehicle. Particular if you are unwilling to confront the thieves to avoid turning the incident into a self defense situation.
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Breaking into your home garage does bring things closer to a threat that will be responded to with force.
You can nit pick me all you want, but leaving valuables in the driveway or on the street is asking for problems, and there is a level of threat that must be met to rise to the level of deadly force.
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Breaking into your home garage does bring things closer to a threat that will be responded to with force.
You can nit pick me all you want, but leaving valuables in the driveway or on the street is asking for problems, and there is a level of threat that must be met to rise to the level of deadly force.
+1
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I don't have a garage. I guess that means I'm asking for problems too. If I told you how many vehicles I've had stolen you probably wouldn't believe me. If I caught anyone in the act I'd be tempted to shoot but most likely wouldn't. Every time it cost me thousands of dollars because my insurance doesn't cover replacement costs. If your vehicle is worth less than half of what you paid for it that's all you're getting from the insurance company.
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I don't have a garage. I guess that means I'm asking for problems too. If I told you how many vehicles I've had stolen you probably wouldn't believe me. If I caught anyone in the act I'd be tempted to shoot but most likely wouldn't. Every time it cost me thousands of dollars because my insurance doesn't cover replacement costs. If your vehicle is worth less than half of what you paid for it that's all you're getting from the insurance company.
This is yet another thing people fail to realize. Insurance doesn't cover the cost of replacing a new vehicle. All of these supposed policies that offer "new car replacement" cost more than they're worth. And they only cover replacement for the first 2 years max. After that you're the one who out, not them.
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I just started reading this thread this morning and may have missed some important points! That being said while I don't mean to offend anyone it seems we have too many domesticated people. You spend years paying for a car or anything else and having it stolen should upset you to some degree. If I were on a jury where an owner over reacted and killed a thief I would hang the jury before I would find the owner guilty of anything.
Many new cars are keyless and the salesmen are proud of how modern that makes them. If you trade-in your car every 2 years thats great, if you keep one 10 years or more like me it could be a problem. I think there is or will be a phone app to replace the fob you need now. In the future you can drive any car you want, just search the make model and Vin number and off you go, screw the owner!
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Weren't horse thieves hung?
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Hey KMitch, You really don't get it.
I tone down my comments for this public forum.
You find it easy to class someone you know nothing about as an internet commando, but I don't see you or your ilk suggesting any alternative except submission.
No I do get it. You like to shoot your mouth off and type tough.
The "alternative" YOU suggest is a felony where I live and most likely where you and TAB live. Maybe you don't have anything to lose - house, life savings, wife, family etc., so ending up penniless and in prison is no big deal. It IS a big deal for sane people.
"You or your ilk"?
Does that sound anything like, "you find it easy to class someone you know nothing about"?
Pot...kettle...black.
At least I have the courage to take a stand for what I believe, what do you have ?
What I have is the desire to live within the laws of AZ and vote for those that I hope will change them for the better. I also have the brains to know that using deadly force when there isn't a threat of death or great bodily harm is a good way to end up in PRISON FOR DECADES.
And what "stand" have you taken exactly? Have YOU used deadly force in your state to protect only property such as an unoccupied car in the driveway?
If you have, please, share with the class your body count and how much the attorney fees cost you.
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Yes Mitch, I do have things to lose. My self respect, and my human dignity.
If you place those in second place behind fear, then there is really no point in your owning a gun since you have already conceded the contest between what's right and what's acceptable to the mob of public opinion.
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What I have is the desire to live within the laws of AZ and vote for those that I hope will change them for the better. I also have the brains to know that using deadly force when there isn't a threat of death or great bodily harm is a good way to end up in PRISON FOR DECADES.
I don't think anyone here has said anything about taking actions outside the law, in response to theft or burglary. In Arizona you are NOT allowed to use deadly force to protect personal property. That in itself doesn't mean one should sit idly by and allow one's property to be stolen. Simply because they are afraid of what might happen in a direct confrontation. Police don't do that, why should citizens? And they, (law enforcement), are under as much or more scrutiny than citizens are when they are forced to shoot. Their jobs, along with their personal freedoms, are on the line every time they drop the hammer in the line of duty.
In the state of Arizona, you must have legitimate reasons your life is in danger before you shoot anyone. If that fear is real and just, (i.e. the person you're confronting has a weapon, and has acted in a threatening manner), then you must do what you have to in order to defend your life, and stop the threat. With that said, taking the option of letting someone steal your property because of some fear you possess of what might happen to you once you enter the legal system, if you even do, doesn't seem like much of an option. At least not to me. As I mentioned, the police don't sit and let crime just happen because they don't want to risk their careers and jail over the possibility of shooting someone, so why should I or anyone else? That's ludicrous.
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billt,
You seem to have forgotten that this thread started with TAB's threat to kill over the theft of property with no illegal entrance to the home or threat to life or great bodily harm. The only "reasonable man" point that may have been reached is hot head, knee jerk reaction.
For me it is not about fear of the legal system, even though that is how I started my warning to TAB concerning his public rant and its potential repercussions, as it is a moral standard of right and wrong. I cannot find it in me to go outside to confront and kill someone over the theft of stuff. There is a time to protect life and limb, and there is a time to be the best witness possible and work the system.
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For me it is not about fear of the legal system, even though that is how I started my warning to TAB concerning his public rant and its potential repercussions, as it is a moral standard of right and wrong. I cannot find it in me to go outside to confront and kill someone over the theft of stuff.
Just because you confront, does not in itself mean you're going to be forced to kill. That is up to the perp. While it is a realistic possibility it could escalate to that, it's doubtful that it would. The only reason it would, is if the thief is willing to do bodily harm to you in order to continue his crime. Most thieves seize on opportunity. They carry burglary tools, not guns. They are not armed robbers. They strike from the shadows, where they think there will be the least, or zero resistance. Or be identified.
If you are going to bring morality into it, it is morally wrong to steal, period. If you are morally opposed to theft, you have the obligation to stop it. I'm not saying that the police should not be called. However, as is always said, when seconds count, police are just minutes away. If in that time the thief gets away, it's highly unlikely he will be found and prosecuted, and your possessions returned. It just isn't that high on the list of today's overloaded, under funded police departments. Also, with todays poor economy, many police departments have response times that are off the chart for these type of crimes. The thief will have your stuff fenced and sold by the time they get around to you.
Moral and financial reasons, as well as common sense, would tell me that armed confrontation is not only necessary, it is the right and proper thing to do. If more did, it would without question reduce crime. As I stated in an earlier post, what would have happened in Ferguson the night the verdict was read, if the police shot the first 3 looters they saw? As Jeff Cooper once stated, "85% of all bad guys just hate being shot."
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Weren't horse thieves hung?
Probably not very many......most were just telling tall tales. :o
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I don't think anyone here has said anything about taking actions outside the law, in response to theft or burglary. In Arizona you are NOT allowed to use deadly force to protect personal property. That in itself doesn't mean one should sit idly by and allow one's property to be stolen.
Remember the title of this thread? It's "Shoot to kill".....over property theft.
The last time I caught someone stealing from me, one thief had their head rammed into a wooden fence with a tackle that would have made Dick Butkus proud. The other was knocked on his azz sporting a cheek that was puffing up to twice its normal size.
(I missed his nose - bad punch) Swollen Face helped Fence Greeter hobble down the street that night while I followed looking through optics to know where they came from.
My job at the time was hauling kegs of beer around by hand and they didn't stand a chance.
Those actions put *me* in the role of the aggressor due to rage. Even though I was the one getting ripped off.
They ran, I ran after...they should have run faster.
Had one of them been armed and shot or stabbed me for knocking their heads loose, would I be better off? What if I had killed one of them, would I be better off then?
Years and 8 bone/joint surgeries later, what options do I have now? I can yell, threaten (still legal here) and call 911.
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Remember the title of this thread? It's "Shoot to kill".....over property theft.
Correct. But it doesn't mean to go about it void of any and all legal common sense. If you live in Texas where lethal force is allowed to protect personal property, then yes, fire at will. As they say on the "Legal Zoom" commercial, "You've got the law on your side".
For everyone else, you can and should use armed confrontation to stop the theft. If the thief chooses to escalate the confrontation, you're then prepared and legal to go to guns. It doesn't take a Harvard law professor to figure this out. Why would anyone in their right mind confront a thief in the process of stealing, unarmed? If the thief lives or dies, then depends on what little brains he has, and is willing to use.
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some asshat just stole my car out of my driveway. I hate thieves more than anything else.
Billt,
This is the opening comment by TAB after he titled this thread Shoot to kill. No other qualification other than the impression that this car thief should be shot dead. That is the premise I respond to, and I understand kmitch200 to be on a similar page (he can correct me if I am off base).
TAB has shown himself to be a hot head who spews this type of threat, and that is what I was warning him about when others began attacking me. I see nothing in his description of the crime that rises to the level of great bodily harm or loss of life, and those are two major items in both legal and moral decisions to use deadly force.
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TAB has shown himself to be a hot head who spews this type of threat, and that is what I was warning him about when others began attacking me. I see nothing in his description of the crime that rises to the level of great bodily harm or loss of life, and those are two major items in both legal and moral decisions to use deadly force.
Basically the point I was making when I said he had other issues besides the car.
I became a bit perturbed when we were accused of being "progressive, liberal, tolerant pussies that live in a cattle car"!
Makes me wonder why I keep hanging around this place.....seems we've lost some viewership in the last years....I wonder why?
I don't have any desire to kill someone who doesn't deserve to die, period.
Stealing my property, since I don't own shit, don't care much about the shit I do own, put life on a level above all of that shit and my ability to stop someone bent on stealing my shit a moot point! Like others, I'm a middle aged, out of shape, crippled asshat who couldn't stop a lazy snail on Quaaludes!
It's a sad day that this thread has dominated this forum lately, sad indeed...
L8tr...out!
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Talk is cheap. I doubt there is anyone on this forum who would kill anyone without cause or need. The general misconception that was given at the start in this thread is two fold. One, that someone would actually kill for no good reason, risking their own freedom as a direct result. And the other, that others would simply let anyone walk off with their property. I doubt either is accurate.
I can't speak for anyone else. What I would do is confront with a weapon, in an effort to stop the theft, and hold the individual for arrest by the police. If, in that confrontation, I was forced to defend my life because the thief put mine in direct danger, so be it. I have no problem with that.
If I did live in Texas, I suppose I could be convinced to shoot with a little less restraint. That's where I stand. What others would do in similar situations, I can't and won't answer for. For what it's worth I don't think we've lost viewership because of the content of threads such as this. It's normal for changeover as forums go on. Most of us have been here a long time. Longer than most. Others have come and gone in that time period. Such is life on the Internet.
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It isn't about what's legal, or anger issues, or a desire to kill some one. It is about what's right, and preventive measures.
As some one earlier pointed out, they used to hang horse thieves. They also used to hang thieves.
Back then you didn't need to lock your doors.
In this "kinder gentler" world not only do you need to lock your doors even when you are home, you can't even let your kid play in the yard with out constant supervision.
That is the result of not shooting thieves over "stuff".
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Yea, Tom... I get all that but in 1860-1870 there were 32 million people in this country, 1900 about 75 mil.
Stealing a horse or important other belongings may have been a death sentence for farmers, ranchers, etc. in the southwest and other parts of the country. They depended on these animals and other important goods for their livelihood as well as their life. Hell, a Wyoming rancher in mid winter without an axe was a death sentence!
Today, we have 330 million people (give or take a few million illegals) in this country and some of them ain't so nice. Break into my house, garage and confront me with the means to defend myself and someone's going home in a bag..
Steal my car from my driveway...I can still get to work cuz I gots two of 'em....
TAB could lose his livelihood without losing his life. Big difference between 1870 and 2015...
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Big difference between 1870 and 2015...
Yes, being a thieving POS is now acceptable .
And there are political advantages to crying victim.
In the early 1900's people took responsibility for themselves, now a days you can depend on La Raza, Al Sharpton, and Elizabeth Warren to look out for you.
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Yes, being a thieving POS is now acceptable .
And there are political advantages to crying victim.
You can dump all of this under the heading of political correctness.
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Yup, one of the first lies of PC was that violence doesn't solve problems.
It certainly solved Jesse James,and slavery didn't it.
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Look at the nonsense, inconvenience, along with $$$$ it's cost to let the Manson family members live. They should have all been killed 40 years ago. Countless parole hearings that everyone knew were going nowhere before they even occurred. All the money spent keeping these worthless animals alive for the last half century, so they can die of old age. Putting the surviving family members through all of it. It's insane. Especially when there is zero question of their guilt.
Manson isn't the only one. Everyone on death row should be killed immediately. Scott Peterson will most likely outlive most of us on this board. Draining an already drained California economy all the way.
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Look at the nonsense, inconvenience, along with $$$$ it's cost to let the Manson family members live. They should have all been killed 40 years ago.
That's what the jury said.
The wimps over ruled them.
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That's what the jury said.
The wimps over ruled them.
Not sure on this?? Correct me if I'm wrong..... If I remember, wasn't the liberal, communist State Of California the governing body that made the death penalty illegal??? It was after that all of their sentences were commuted to life with the possibility of parole. Manson was originally sentenced to death by the jury.............. The same with Peterson. They, (California), won't kill him.
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That's right, the jury sentenced Manson to death, then Ca repealed the death penalty and Manson's sentance was automatically changed to life in prison.
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Yes, being a thieving POS is now acceptable.
I swiped candy from the local soda fountain when I was a kid! Do I deserve to die?
;D
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Only if you got caught. ;D
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Only if you got caught. ;D
My childhood pals Matt, Jimmy, Mikey and Buzzard would help in the caper. We'd leave the fountain with our pockets bulging and head out. Jimmy always chickened out about the time we got to the edge of the parking lot and would want to go confess and return his Bazooka or whatever he's lifted...
We'd drag him down the street kicking and screaming. We were 7-8 years old...
Turns out the that guy that owned the store knew of our shenanigans and was just putting a couple bucks a week on the folks tab at the pharmacy to make up for his losses...
Master Criminals we were... 8)
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Regular Tony Soprano's in the making.
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Regular Tony Soprano's in the making.
Yea, three Micks and a Pole don't make a Soprano...
:)
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Regular Tony Soprano's in the making.
Yea, three Micks and a Pole don't make a Soprano...
:)
Whitey Bolgski ? ;D