The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Ksail101 on August 25, 2008, 11:09:52 AM
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What is your opinion for the ultimate fighting handgun? I know this question has probably be asked before on some other forums but I haven't seen it and I would like to see your choices.
For me Glock 21 .(45 acp) (I like the SF model but that is getting picky)
Lightrail
Ease of use
Reliability.
The ability to interchange parts with other Glock 21's. If a part breaks find another in-operable 21 switch the parts.
If I knew more about revolvers I my pick might be different but since Autos are what I know that is what my pick will be.
If there was one handgun that I got to choose before the stuff goes down this is what I would want with me in a drop leg holster.
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I'd lean towards the 1911 but that's to cliche. Hell, I think even my dog is building 1911s at this point ::) It and the Glocks are hard to beat.
I love the M9/Beretta 92 series and they've done a lot of good things even if they are 9mm but I think the F model safety is useless. The G model decocker is better. Besides since I shoot mostly Glocks I always forget to take the safety off (but don't have the same problem with the 1911 ???) The M11/Sig 228-9s are about the right size and capacity.
Revolvers-
I have been eyeing the Colt Detective Specials on GunBroker. Same basic size as a SW J frame with 6 rounds. To bad thier not currently in production.
The 327/TRR8 series eight shot 357s could hold thier own even against an auto if you trained with it enough.
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I traded my paperweight I mean SR9 in on a Glock 21C.
It was a great gun and the damage of .45's was awesome but the sights (fixed) left a little to be desired. Also after 500 rounds the frame developed a crack behind the frontmost slide guide.
I just picked up a Beretta PX4 Storm in .40 S&W and must say I am very impressed.
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LeMat Revolver. Just kidding, but I like the shotgun barrel with buckshot. That plus the 9 rounds of .44 caliber ain't bad either. I'll have to think about it to come up with a real answer.
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I second jumbofrank's suggestion. I own a rep LeMat, and I tell ya I considered it for a vehicle gun. Carjack this, oh my brutha! ;D
On the serious side, I think the 1911's track record speaks for itself, but your 'fighting gun' should be the one you can handle with the least amount of thought. For me, that's any of my Paras.
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At this point and time, I will defer to the good Col. Jeff Cooper on this matter.......... ;D
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I wish there was a break-open double-action revolver that would be a modernized cartridge equivilent of the LeMat. It could be maybe 7 rounds of .45 Colt+P with a .45 Colt/.410 bore rifled barrel down the middle. Having the shotgun barrel rifled and able to shoot .45 Colt keeps it all nice and legal like my Contender, and not a sawed-off shotgun. But the rifling can be a slow twist so it doesn't scatter the shot too fast.
Until someone makes that gun I guess I'm stuck with my 15-shot Para .45 with extra 15 and 20-round mags. I'm good for 85+1 shots if I have all 5 mags loaded.
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Jumbofrank has the right idea.
A modernized LeMat revolver would be perfect. Nine rounds of 45 ACP with a 20 gauge barrel under the pistol barrel would be splendid. That sounds like a Ruger project to me...
;D
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1911 5" gov. grade
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Jumbofrank has the right idea.
A modernized LeMat revolver would be perfect. Nine rounds of 45 ACP with a 20 gauge barrel under the pistol barrel would be splendid. That sounds like a Ruger project to me...
;D
With Ruger's current track record (SR9, LCP initially) would you REALLY want them to build one. ;D
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Colt 1911 or S&W 19 with Safariland speed loaders. No particular order, comfortable with both.
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1911's are on the short list for sure.
Wheel guns, Jerry Miculek has a nice S&W Model 625 in .45ACP, Oorrrrr,...
the .460V loaded, only 5 rounds, but .45LC, .454 Casull, or the .460 all out of the same barrel, is pretty formidable. (speedloaders mandatory) 8).
Dirty Harry .44's, pretty darn good there too.
.357's can't be left out either, Model 620 4" barrel with 7 rounds.
But a snub nose .38+P or a 9mm in the "right hands" can make a world of difference. ::)
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Yet another Glock vs. 1911 thread. :)
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Hmmm. A lot depends on where I might be as to what caliber, capacity and style I'd prefer.
And I might consider the 5.7x28 under some conditions as preferable.
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Glock...................... Glock.......................................Glock.......................Glock................ ;)
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I guess I am in agreement with Desert Marine. Only the order changes. I like the S&W Combat Magnum (M19). Mine has Herret's Trooper grips and rides in an early 60s Jordan holster by Don Hume. Not a concealment rig that is for sure.
My next choice would be the 1911.
Talking ultimate here.
But I have moved on now to SIG P220R with LaserMax, light, and night sights for home. And, SIG P239 with night sights in .357 SIG for concealed carry -- which I hardly ever do, given my threat assessment. I avoid going to Detroit like the plague now. When I worked down there, GM had a no gun policy. I liked my job but the policy sucked. :P
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Hmmm. A lot depends on where I might be as to what caliber, capacity and style I'd prefer.
And I might consider the 5.7x28 under some conditions as preferable.
I'm thinking about getting a Five-seveN myself. A 20 round mag, and half the recoil of a 9mm, in such a lightweight pistol make it sound quite attractive. I think it would be a nice woods gun too.
P.S. I avoid Detroit like the plague and always have. That's the same exact words I use too; avoid it like the plague.
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I wish there was a break-open double-action revolver that would be a modernized cartridge equivilent of the LeMat. It could be maybe 7 rounds of .45 Colt+P with a .45 Colt/.410 bore rifled barrel down the middle. Having the shotgun barrel rifled and able to shoot .45 Colt keeps it all nice and legal like my Contender, and not a sawed-off shotgun. But the rifling can be a slow twist so it doesn't scatter the shot too fast.
Until someone makes that gun I guess I'm stuck with my 15-shot Para .45 with extra 15 and 20-round mags. I'm good for 85+1 shots if I have all 5 mags loaded.
Best we might get is the Taurus Judge. http://www.taurususa.com/whatsnew/revolvers.cfm (http://www.taurususa.com/whatsnew/revolvers.cfm) Ultimate fighting handgun for apartment dwellers and homeowners?
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Someone else used to make a snubnosed .410 revolver somewhat like the Judge with a 3" cylinder. It was almost a pepperbox and was the only revolver I saw with a safety.
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I guess I am in agreement with Desert Marine. Only the order changes. I like the S&W Combat Magnum (M19). Mine has Herret's Trooper grips and rides in an early 60s Jordan holster by Don Hume. Not a concealment rig that is for sure.
In my previous life, 1976-1982, I carried the Model 19 2 1/2" barrel with Pachmyr small round grips, in a Bianchi pancake holster concealed. Carried it thruout the country with no problems. Sometimes in summer covered it with shirt or some kind of vest. For non-concealed fighting gun I would prefer a 4" barrel.
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Four inch M19 is good. Mine is a 4 incher. I carried it in a previous liife as well when the threat level was very high all the time. I drew it several times but never had to fire it. It was ready to go and a comfort. I slept with it under my pillow or what ever.
I also drew the 1911 once and was planning on firing if things got worse even though the pistol was full of rice paddy gunk. But, as usual my light weapons infantry sergeant was there with his M2 doing good work. I was busy on the radio and really did not need to shoot. That time.
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Yet another Glock vs. 1911 thread. :)
I would carry either into a fight , for me the 1911 fits better, Glock is a winner also.
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I would carry either into a fight , for me the 1911 fits better, Glock is a winner also.
BINGO... ;D...
I own and shoot both....and both are good guns and when used properly, serve their intended purposes well.
The 1911 Commander just feels better in my hand, but the Glock 27 ain't bad either.
I trust them both, or I would not own them.
8)
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Hey 2How I didnt mean for this thread to become a Glock Vs. 1911. I wanted to know what the ultimate handgun to have when all goes to hell. I added my 2 cents for the reasons I stated. But I wanted to see what other guns people would chose.
I was hoping the topic would turn into what makes a certain gun better for fighting.
I wanted to hear thoughts on light rails being a must or a waste. Weight, Caliber, fix-ability (if that is a word), and ultimate reliability.
Maybe the reason why these kinds of topics turn into 1911 vs Glock is that those two firearms are the best there is for fighting. One isnt so much better that the other. But one will have to end up being the choice for you and I guess I wanted to know why, and what makes a true fighting pistol.
I also want to add that with a fighting pistol, no matter what it is, the pistol is your back up. You should wage the war with your long gun of choice and when you are in the situation where you cant reload or your handgun is your only option to survive you use it. I wanted to know what handgun you would depend on and strap to your leg\belt before you walked into that fight.
A fighting pistol, as we all know, is not the same as your handgun that you take to the range on a saturday to burn up some rounds with the buddies. It is the handgun that you would take to the range to work on your tactics. Of course that involves just shooting it and having fun to get used to it. But over all you wouldnt use it as your play gun. Your fighting gun is going to be set up much different than your fun gun. On your fun gun you may be able to get away with not having the front strap checkered, or having some sort of a grip on it. You may be able to get away with a front sight that is just back post. But on your fighting gun, you are going to want to enhance all of these things to give you a better chance in the fight.
By all means I am not saying that the gun you take to the range and have fun with, cant or wont save your life, any gun is better that no gun, but if you know that you may be called upon to defend yourself or others wouldnt you want to have every advantage possible? So what gun is that. And what reasons makes it your choice.
So I guess I pretty much knew the answer Glock or a 1911. But is there one 1911, springfield, wilson, or even a colt better than the other. But I guess that comes down to preference. But should brand loyalty or reputation determine what you choose? Me personally I dont think I have a brand loyalty. I think I know that my next handgun is going to be a Sig 220 or FNP 45, because those guns, within those brands, I know to work. I am not so much choosing them cause the company. I will find out which one feels better to me and which one has more functionality. I would like a .45 acp handgun I can carry and know will work. If I try an HK 45 while I looking for a handgun I like it better than those two well then I will go with it. But since I have shot the sig and the FN handguns before I know I already like them. I see people wont buy a Kimber cause of all the things people have wrote about them lately, and the troubles the company has seemed to have. But I believe that in their line of 1911's there are some true fighting pistols. that I would depend on. I do actually. My Desert Warrior has been great. I have a couple thousand rounds through it and feel comfortable with the setup I have. And no matter what I can modify. It is a great platform to work off of.
All of these, the Sig, FN, Kimber will have to be ran through their paces before I will strap them on my waist and walk out the door. But weather it is EAA or FN if the gun is good I will use it.
So sorry that this turned into a 1911 vs glock. We have seen that a million times and will continue to till the end of time. All I know is out of all the guns I have used the Glock 21, rightnow, I would want in a fight. This may change as my experience with handguns and my love for fighting handguns continue.
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Lets put it to a vote:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=3164.0
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Being fairly inexperienced and with limited experience and knowledge, i would look at a 1911 first.
After all, something that old, staying around that long, can't just be bad...
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ksail, im trying yto type i broke mt arm today, goingv to hospital in am . i think you are as right as any one, the glogk i excellent, did i say i carried 1 for 17 years? but it just didnt fit . what i am saying is glock 1911- sig taurus all good ..........but if you cant hit a target it dosent matter, then you think about serviveability. serviceability. i would take a sig or glock into battle any day as well as a 1911 those are my picks . take care. jan
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A 3.5 inch rocket would be my first choice, but since I can't have that, I will choose my avatar. ;D
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S&W Model 15/67 w4" barrel. But if I had to pick an auto it would be a 1911. I would use my Kimber Warrior .45ACP.
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In the interests of full disclosure, I have only shot the Glock 26, but have handled a variety of 1911s, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt.
I know eventually I will get a 1911. Probably a Dan Wesson or a S&W, and then maybe a Les Baer. But the 1911 has two features, which for me, are not desireable. The first is the grip safety. You have to grab the gun under stress and depress the grip safety correctly every single time, or it won't shoot. There's a manual safety too, which IMHO makes the grip safety unnecessary. The other feature I don't like is the more complex way that it disassembles for field stripping. I know I've been too accustomed to the Sig field stripping system, but I do think that not being able to disassemble a gun without tools is not as ideal as a tooless disassembly.
The 1911 does have the easy to find magazines from a variety of makers and very easy to find holsters, so it's foolish for me to dismiss the 1911 for the two qualms I have with it. I love the trigger, as it has a short reset.
Glocks, on the other hand, are basically idiot proof. Field stripping is easier than the 1911, though not like the Sigs in terms of removing the slide assembly. You have a ton of holster choices like the 1911, and the trigger is easy to learn. It's also safe as long as you don't touch it until you're ready to shoot. Pricing is better with the Glock than with a good 1911, but what a good 1911 should cost is debatable.
To contribute my part in avoiding the infamous Glock v. 1911 tread, I must mention that the Sig P220 with DAK trigger is the best blend between a Glock and 1911 in my opinion. It will give you a consistant trigger like both the 1911 and Glock, but it has no manually safeties to fiddle with. It field strips very easily, which is a feature I really like. It has a single stack magazine like the 1911, which I like, and holsters are easy to find. It's as accurate or more accurate as a 1911 or Glock, which is always helpful.
In summary, if you don't know which is better for you personally, I would suggest splitting the difference and getting a Sig P220 with the DAK trigger. I know I'm going too. Have a nice day.
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In the interests of full disclosure, I have only shot the Glock 26, but have handled a variety of 1911s, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt.
I know eventually I will get a 1911. Probably a Dan Wesson or a S&W, and then maybe a Les Baer. But the 1911 has two features, which for me, are not desireable. The first is the grip safety. You have to grab the gun under stress and depress the grip safety correctly every single time, or it won't shoot. There's a manual safety too, which IMHO makes the grip safety unnecessary. The other feature I don't like is the more complex way that it disassembles for field stripping. I know I've been too accustomed to the Sig field stripping system, but I do think that not being able to disassemble a gun without tools is not as ideal as a tooless disassembly.
The 1911 does have the easy to find magazines from a variety of makers and very easy to find holsters, so it's foolish for me to dismiss the 1911 for the two qualms I have with it. I love the trigger, as it has a short reset.
Glocks, on the other hand, are basically idiot proof. Field stripping is easier than the 1911, though not like the Sigs in terms of removing the slide assembly. You have a ton of holster choices like the 1911, and the trigger is easy to learn. It's also safe as long as you don't touch it until you're ready to shoot. Pricing is better with the Glock than with a good 1911, but what a good 1911 should cost is debatable.
To contribute my part in avoiding the infamous Glock v. 1911 tread, I must mention that the Sig P220 with DAK trigger is the best blend between a Glock and 1911 in my opinion. It will give you a consistant trigger like both the 1911 and Glock, but it has no manually safeties to fiddle with. It field strips very easily, which is a feature I really like. It has a single stack magazine like the 1911, which I like, and holsters are easy to find. It's as accurate or more accurate as a 1911 or Glock, which is always helpful.
In summary, if you don't know which is better for you personally, I would suggest splitting the difference and getting a Sig P220 with the DAK trigger. I know I'm going too. Have a nice day.
Just can't help but think of this every time I hear the term "Idiot-Proof"....... ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhIJOVD8hwY
I know this could happen with ANY gun, just showing the idiot part.... 8)
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I had heard about the DEA agent shooting himself in the foot, but had never seen the video until now. Man, what an idiot. I'll wager the people in the first couple rows filled their pants when they saw the assault rifle! It's comforting to know that morons like this guy are teaching firearm safety. :o
Swoop
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Just can't help but think of this every time I hear the term "Idiot-Proof"....... ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhIJOVD8hwY
I know this could happen with ANY gun, just showing the idiot part.... 8)
Nothing is idiot-proof once the idiot puts his finger on the trigger.
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In the interests of full disclosure, I have only shot the Glock 26, but have handled a variety of 1911s, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt.
I know eventually I will get a 1911. Probably a Dan Wesson or a S&W, and then maybe a Les Baer. But the 1911 has two features, which for me, are not desireable. The first is the grip safety. You have to grab the gun under stress and depress the grip safety correctly every single time, or it won't shoot. There's a manual safety too, which IMHO makes the grip safety unnecessary. The other feature I don't like is the more complex way that it disassembles for field stripping. I know I've been too accustomed to the Sig field stripping system, but I do think that not being able to disassemble a gun without tools is not as ideal as a tooless disassembly.
The 1911 does have the easy to find magazines from a variety of makers and very easy to find holsters, so it's foolish for me to dismiss the 1911 for the two qualms I have with it. I love the trigger, as it has a short reset.
Glocks, on the other hand, are basically idiot proof. Field stripping is easier than the 1911, though not like the Sigs in terms of removing the slide assembly. You have a ton of holster choices like the 1911, and the trigger is easy to learn. It's also safe as long as you don't touch it until you're ready to shoot. Pricing is better with the Glock than with a good 1911, but what a good 1911 should cost is debatable.
To contribute my part in avoiding the infamous Glock v. 1911 tread, I must mention that the Sig P220 with DAK trigger is the best blend between a Glock and 1911 in my opinion. It will give you a consistant trigger like both the 1911 and Glock, but it has no manually safeties to fiddle with. It field strips very easily, which is a feature I really like. It has a single stack magazine like the 1911, which I like, and holsters are easy to find. It's as accurate or more accurate as a 1911 or Glock, which is always helpful.
In summary, if you don't know which is better for you personally, I would suggest splitting the difference and getting a Sig P220 with the DAK trigger. I know I'm going too. Have a nice day.
Okay, I'm taking it with a grain of salt. The 1911 field strips in seconds WITH NO TOOLS. Once it's field -stripped I can use parts of the pistol as tools to disassemble it much further. I did this to another guy's .45 when I was in the army and handed his pistol back in several pieces inside his helmet. I didn't remove the sights or grip screw bushings because you're not suppossed to take them off. Other than that it was completelty disassembled right down to the magazine catch lock and spring, etc, with no tools.
Also, if you're holding onto the slide using the pistol to pound nails in, then you aren't holding the grip safety in. But if you're holding the pistol by the grip in anything even that even remotely resembles the proper manner, you ARE holding the grip safety in properly. That's all there is to it. It's so simple a caveman can do it. No speed bumps or pads on the grip safety are neccesary, but several aftermarket "improvements" are available if you feel you need them. Most people have gotten along fine without them for 101 years. (The design was tested 4 years prior to adoption.)
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A retired police officer accidentally shot himself in the chest while aiming at a snapping turtle behind his house (Bensalem, Pa.,
August). They didn't say what kind of "idiot-proof" gun he had, but several retired and active duty police officers have shot themselves with Glocks. One officer went to the bathroom and hung his Glock by the trigger on the flush handle of the toilet. Since there's no grip safety or thumb safety it went off and shot him in the butt. All of the stupid accidents involving police officers seem to be with Glocks. If "trained professionals" have that much trouble with them I wouldn't recommend one to a n00b.
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A retired police officer accidentally shot himself in the chest while aiming at a snapping turtle behind his house (Bensalem, Pa.,
August). They didn't say what kind of "idiot-proof" gun he had, but several retired and active duty police officers have shot themselves with Glocks. One officer went to the bathroom and hung his Glock by the trigger on the flush handle of the toilet. Since there's no grip safety or thumb safety it went off and shot him in the butt. All of the stupid accidents involving police officers seem to be with Glocks. If "trained professionals" have that much trouble with them I wouldn't recommend one to a n00b.
Does not sound like trained or professional to me, which would appear to be the biggest problem.Cops are trained in MANY things, driving, laws and regulations, rules of evidence etc. they can't be FULLY trained in ALL things, Dept's that skimp on fire arms training, or Officers who don't pay attention get people, sometimes themselves, killed. Just like any other profession, ignore the basic safety rules and you will get bit no matter what brand of pistol you are carrying. The reason the majority of accidents happen with Glocks is because the majority of PD's issue them I bet.
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Does not sound like trained or professional to me, which would appear to be the biggest problem.Cops are trained in MANY things, driving, laws and regulations, rules of evidence etc. they can't be FULLY trained in ALL things, Dept's that skimp on fire arms training, or Officers who don't pay attention get people, sometimes themselves, killed. Just like any other profession, ignore the basic safety rules and you will get bit no matter what brand of pistol you are carrying. The reason the majority of accidents happen with Glocks is because the majority of PD's issue them I bet.
I've been wondering about that myself. It would make perfect sense. I don't have any idea what percentage of the pistols are Glocks, and what percentage of accidents are with Glocks. When you ignore several of the most basic safety rules all at once, stuff happens with any gun. Maybe Glocks aren't involved in a higher percentage of accidents, but a manual safety and a grip safety would prevent some of those accidental disharges. Like the ones involving hanging a Glock on a toilet handle, a nail, or a coat hook, etc. There have been several such incidents over the years where something other than the operator's trigger finger is inside the trigger guard.
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Does not sound like trained or professional to me, which would appear to be the biggest problem.Cops are trained in MANY things, driving, laws and regulations, rules of evidence etc. they can't be FULLY trained in ALL things, Dept's that skimp on fire arms training, or Officers who don't pay attention get people, sometimes themselves, killed. Just like any other profession, ignore the basic safety rules and you will get bit no matter what brand of pistol you are carrying. The reason the majority of accidents happen with Glocks is because the majority of PD's issue them I bet.
Agreed! You could have a gun with 25 safetys on it, and still some BOOB would shoot himself with it! ???
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Agreed! You could have a gun with 25 safetys on it, and still some BOOB would shoot himself with it! ???
As Ron White said, "You can't fix stupid.". ;D
Here's a perfect example, albeit non-gun related, but I'd hate to know this guy carried a gun.
We had a lot of heavy industrial machinery where I used to work.
There was this guy who climbed over into a machine, while it was on and running, and was (luckily) only mildly injured.
A 'committee' got together to look into 'what to do about it'.
One smart guy says fire him.
Oh, no...can't do that...might make HIM FEEL BAD ABOUT HIMSELF.......(WTH?). ???
OK...They decide to spend $20,000 (yes, twenty thousand dollars ???) to build a chest-high, 1 1/2" square-tubing fence ALL THE WAY AROUND the machine. Then, we (I was in the engineering department and helped install it, no choice) put an electrical interlock system on the fence so that if you moved a section or opened a gate, it would automatically kill the machine.
Now...fast forward a spell. The SAME GUY decides to CLIMB OVER THE FENCE and back into the machine. This time, he is injured severely. Broken bones and third degree burns requiring hospitalization and much rehab.
Six months later, back on the job, and BOOM....they make him a (you guessed it) a "lead man" (like a supervisor).
Instead of firing the guy, they promote him for "HIS OWN SAFETY".
??? :o ???
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Wow... I didn't think the phrase "idiot-proof" would spark so much conversation. I bet Joe Biden will work really hard to have a gaft that effective this election season ;D Let me explain the context in which I meant idiot-proof and if you disagree with it, that's cool.
Since the title of this tread is "Ultimate Fighting Handgun," I was under the impression that everyone here understands basic gun safety, especially keeping their fingers off the trigger of any gun. I meant idiot-proof as in you don't have to think about how to operate the gun when a bad guy is attacking you. With tons of training and experience, operating a 1911 is second nature to many people, especially those who grew up with 1911s in pre-Glock times.
The 1911 field strips in seconds WITH NO TOOLS. Once it's field -stripped I can use parts of the pistol as tools to disassemble it much further. I did this to another guy's .45 when I was in the army and handed his pistol back in several pieces inside his helmet. I didn't remove the sights or grip screw bushings because you're not suppossed to take them off. Other than that it was completelty disassembled right down to the magazine catch lock and spring, etc, with no tools.
I am aware that some 1911s can be field stripped without tools, but those then to be pretty loose and used. Why to new ones come with a bushing wrench. If it wasn't necessary at least in the first few cleaning sessions, they wouldn't supply a nice piece of steel that could contribute to another gun or gun parts. And with the price of steel going up, that's no small matter when it comes to thousands of bushing wrenches.
In my previous post, I also addressed the grip safety.
Also, if you're holding onto the slide using the pistol to pound nails in, then you aren't holding the grip safety in. But if you're holding the pistol by the grip in anything even that even remotely resembles the proper manner, you ARE holding the grip safety in properly. That's all there is to it. It's so simple a caveman can do it. No speed bumps or pads on the grip safety are neccesary, but several aftermarket "improvements" are available if you feel you need them. Most people have gotten along fine without them for 101 years. (The design was tested 4 years prior to adoption.)
Speed bumps and pads are probably more of a personal choice rather than a necessity, I'll give you that Jumbofrank. But I why then did Wayne Novak develop "The Anwser?" (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/The+Answer (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/The+Answer)) For those that haven't heard of it, it's simply a way of removing the grip safety all together. I believe MB has commented on one of his podcasts that he has seen at least race guns with pinned grip safeties, if not fighting guns. So the ideal that the grip safety is the greatest feature of the 1911 is, IMHO slightly of course.
Furthermore, JMB elimated the grip safety on the Browning Hi-Power, instead opting for a magazine safety, which I don't like either. And the barrel bushing was also elimated, making take down even easier and involving fewer parts. If JMB thought the 1911 was the perfect platform for centerfire cartridges, then why didn't he simply create a 9mm 1911? The anwser is that he knew of some improvements that could be made and even though he didn't complete the design, his pattern elimated the grip safety, the grip profile of the 1911, and simplified takedown to require fewer parts in the design.
In conclusion, let me say that I completely respect all the views of those who contribute here. I also have great respect for the 1911, but I don't think it's as good as everyone else seems to think it is. Although I may not be the most experienced shooter here, I love to study guns and read as much as I can from as many different people as I can. I also shoot occassionally, when I can afford it. I will always keep in mind my level of knowledge and consider how much I really know before I submit it for others to read. But I will always say what I mean and stand behind it 100%.
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I'm sure John Moses Browning had a lot of ideas in his head that were never realized. Some of his final guns were left on the workbench after his death for his son and others to finish. After being commissioned to design a high capacity 9 by the French, he had to come up with a whole new design, because he had sold the rights to the 1911. The magazine disconnect safety was a requirement of the French military contract that it was being designed for. The Hi-power was also one of those designs that someone else completed.
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I am aware that some 1911s can be field stripped without tools, but those then to be pretty loose and used. Why to new ones come with a bushing wrench. If it wasn't necessary at least in the first few cleaning sessions, they wouldn't supply a nice piece of steel that could contribute to another gun or gun parts. And with the price of steel going up, that's no small matter when it comes to thousands of bushing wrenches.
I think all 1911s can be field stripped without tools. Of course you need an allen wrench to take apart two-piece guide rods, but I haven't personally seen a 1911 with a standard recoil spring guide that couldn't be field stripped without tools. If you have trouble with the barrel bushing, just pull the slide stop out and pull the slide off first. The rest comes apart easily after that.
I didn't know it was common for 1911s to come with bushing wrenches. Only one of my new 1911s did, and it was a plastic wrench for the Officers ACP size fat bushing. I don't remember ever using it. I had 4 pistols with 3 bushings that came with 1 wrench but none was needed until I put an oversize bushing in. Soon after it wasn't needed anymore.
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Ain't this a great place? So many points of view and all with merrit...for the most part.
The bottom line (at least for me) is that you have to go with what you know and use what suits YOU best.
A single shot .22 that works when you need it to is better than a .45 that don't work when it is supposed to, regardless of the type or brand.
Shoot safe.
:D