Ultimate Fighting Handgun

[PegLeg45]

In the interests of full disclosure, I have only shot the Glock 26, but have handled a variety of 1911s, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt.

I know eventually I will get a 1911. Probably a Dan Wesson or a S&W, and then maybe a Les Baer. But the 1911 has two features, which for me, are not desireable. The first is the grip safety. You have to grab the gun under stress and depress the grip safety correctly every single time, or it won't shoot. There's a manual safety too, which IMHO makes the grip safety unnecessary. The other feature I don't like is the more complex way that it disassembles for field stripping. I know I've been too accustomed to the Sig field stripping system, but I do think that not being able to disassemble a gun without tools is not as ideal as a tooless disassembly.

The 1911 does have the easy to find magazines from a variety of makers and very easy to find holsters, so it's foolish  for me to dismiss the 1911 for the two qualms I have with it. I love the trigger, as it has a short reset.

Glocks, on the other hand, are basically idiot proof. Field stripping is easier than the 1911, though not like the Sigs in terms of removing the slide assembly. You have a ton of holster choices like the 1911, and the trigger is easy to learn. It's also safe as long as you don't touch it until you're ready to shoot. Pricing is better with the Glock than with a good 1911, but what a good 1911 should cost is debatable.

To contribute my part in avoiding the infamous Glock v. 1911 tread, I must mention that the Sig P220 with DAK trigger is the best blend between a Glock and 1911 in my opinion. It will give you a consistant trigger like both the 1911 and Glock, but it has no manually safeties to fiddle with. It field strips very easily, which is a feature I really like. It has a single stack magazine like the 1911, which I like, and holsters are easy to find. It's as accurate or more accurate as a 1911 or Glock, which is always helpful.

In summary, if you don't know which is better for you personally, I would suggest splitting the difference and getting a Sig P220 with the DAK trigger. I know I'm going too. Have a nice day.

Just can't help but think of this every time I hear the term "Idiot-Proof".......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhIJOVD8hwY

I know this could happen with ANY gun, just showing the idiot part....

[SwoopSJ]

I had heard about the DEA agent shooting himself in the foot, but had never seen the video until now.  Man, what an idiot.  I'll wager the people in the first couple rows filled their pants when they saw the assault rifle!  It's comforting to know that morons like this guy are teaching firearm safety.   

Swoop

[Rob10ring]

Just can't help but think of this every time I hear the term "Idiot-Proof".......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhIJOVD8hwY

I know this could happen with ANY gun, just showing the idiot part....

Nothing is idiot-proof once the idiot puts his finger on the trigger.

[Big Frank]

In the interests of full disclosure, I have only shot the Glock 26, but have handled a variety of 1911s, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt.

I know eventually I will get a 1911. Probably a Dan Wesson or a S&W, and then maybe a Les Baer. But the 1911 has two features, which for me, are not desireable. The first is the grip safety. You have to grab the gun under stress and depress the grip safety correctly every single time, or it won't shoot. There's a manual safety too, which IMHO makes the grip safety unnecessary. The other feature I don't like is the more complex way that it disassembles for field stripping. I know I've been too accustomed to the Sig field stripping system, but I do think that not being able to disassemble a gun without tools is not as ideal as a tooless disassembly.

The 1911 does have the easy to find magazines from a variety of makers and very easy to find holsters, so it's foolish  for me to dismiss the 1911 for the two qualms I have with it. I love the trigger, as it has a short reset.

Glocks, on the other hand, are basically idiot proof. Field stripping is easier than the 1911, though not like the Sigs in terms of removing the slide assembly. You have a ton of holster choices like the 1911, and the trigger is easy to learn. It's also safe as long as you don't touch it until you're ready to shoot. Pricing is better with the Glock than with a good 1911, but what a good 1911 should cost is debatable.

To contribute my part in avoiding the infamous Glock v. 1911 tread, I must mention that the Sig P220 with DAK trigger is the best blend between a Glock and 1911 in my opinion. It will give you a consistant trigger like both the 1911 and Glock, but it has no manually safeties to fiddle with. It field strips very easily, which is a feature I really like. It has a single stack magazine like the 1911, which I like, and holsters are easy to find. It's as accurate or more accurate as a 1911 or Glock, which is always helpful.

In summary, if you don't know which is better for you personally, I would suggest splitting the difference and getting a Sig P220 with the DAK trigger. I know I'm going too. Have a nice day.

Okay, I'm taking it with a grain of salt. The 1911 field strips in seconds WITH NO TOOLS. Once it's field -stripped I can use parts of the pistol as tools to disassemble it much further. I did this to another guy's .45 when I was in the army and handed his pistol back in several pieces inside his helmet. I didn't remove the sights or grip screw bushings because you're not suppossed to take them off. Other than that it was completelty disassembled right down to the magazine catch lock and spring, etc, with no tools.

Also, if you're holding onto the slide using the pistol to pound nails in, then you aren't holding the grip safety in. But if you're holding the pistol by the grip in anything even that even remotely resembles the proper manner, you ARE holding the grip safety in properly. That's all there is to it. It's so simple a caveman can do it. No speed bumps or pads on the grip safety are neccesary, but several aftermarket "improvements" are available if you feel you need them. Most people have gotten along fine without them for 101 years. (The design was tested 4 years prior to adoption.)

[Big Frank]

A retired police officer accidentally shot himself in the chest while aiming at a snapping turtle behind his house (Bensalem, Pa.,
August). They didn't say what kind of "idiot-proof" gun he had, but several retired and active duty police officers have shot themselves with Glocks. One officer went to the bathroom and hung his Glock by the trigger on the flush handle of the toilet. Since there's no grip safety or thumb safety it went off and shot him in the butt. All of the stupid accidents involving police officers seem to be with Glocks. If "trained professionals" have that much trouble with them I wouldn't recommend one to a n00b.

[Sponsor]

[tombogan03884]

A retired police officer accidentally shot himself in the chest while aiming at a snapping turtle behind his house (Bensalem, Pa.,
August). They didn't say what kind of "idiot-proof" gun he had, but several retired and active duty police officers have shot themselves with Glocks. One officer went to the bathroom and hung his Glock by the trigger on the flush handle of the toilet. Since there's no grip safety or thumb safety it went off and shot him in the butt. All of the stupid accidents involving police officers seem to be with Glocks. If "trained professionals" have that much trouble with them I wouldn't recommend one to a n00b.

Does not sound like trained or professional to me, which would appear to be the biggest problem.Cops are trained in MANY things, driving, laws and regulations, rules of evidence etc. they can't be FULLY trained in ALL things, Dept's that skimp on fire arms training, or Officers who don't pay attention get people, sometimes themselves, killed. Just like any other profession, ignore the basic safety rules and you will get bit no matter what brand of pistol you are carrying. The reason the majority of accidents happen with Glocks is because the majority of PD's issue them I bet. 

[Big Frank]

Does not sound like trained or professional to me, which would appear to be the biggest problem.Cops are trained in MANY things, driving, laws and regulations, rules of evidence etc. they can't be FULLY trained in ALL things, Dept's that skimp on fire arms training, or Officers who don't pay attention get people, sometimes themselves, killed. Just like any other profession, ignore the basic safety rules and you will get bit no matter what brand of pistol you are carrying. The reason the majority of accidents happen with Glocks is because the majority of PD's issue them I bet. 

I've been wondering about that myself. It would make perfect sense. I don't have any idea what percentage of the pistols are Glocks, and what percentage of accidents are with Glocks. When you ignore several of the most basic safety rules all at once, stuff happens with any gun. Maybe Glocks aren't involved in a higher percentage of accidents, but a manual safety and a grip safety would prevent some of those accidental disharges. Like the ones involving hanging a Glock on a toilet handle, a nail, or a coat hook, etc. There have been several such incidents over the years where something other than the operator's trigger finger is inside the trigger guard.

[ismram]

Does not sound like trained or professional to me, which would appear to be the biggest problem.Cops are trained in MANY things, driving, laws and regulations, rules of evidence etc. they can't be FULLY trained in ALL things, Dept's that skimp on fire arms training, or Officers who don't pay attention get people, sometimes themselves, killed. Just like any other profession, ignore the basic safety rules and you will get bit no matter what brand of pistol you are carrying. The reason the majority of accidents happen with Glocks is because the majority of PD's issue them I bet. 

Agreed! You could have a gun with 25 safetys on it, and still some BOOB would shoot himself with it!

[PegLeg45]

Agreed! You could have a gun with 25 safetys on it, and still some BOOB would shoot himself with it!

As Ron White said, "You can't fix stupid.".

Here's a perfect example, albeit non-gun related, but I'd hate to know this guy carried a gun.

We had a lot of heavy industrial machinery where I used to work.
There was this guy who climbed over into a machine, while it was on and running, and was (luckily) only mildly injured.
A 'committee' got together to look into 'what to do about it'.
One smart guy says fire him.
Oh, no...can't do that...might make HIM FEEL BAD ABOUT HIMSELF.......(WTH?).
OK...They decide to spend $20,000 (yes, twenty thousand dollars ) to build a chest-high, 1 1/2" square-tubing fence ALL THE WAY AROUND the machine. Then, we (I was in the engineering department and helped install it, no choice) put an electrical interlock system on the fence so that if you moved a section or opened a gate, it would automatically kill the machine.
Now...fast forward a spell. The SAME GUY decides to CLIMB OVER THE FENCE and back into the machine. This time, he is injured severely. Broken bones and third degree burns requiring hospitalization and much rehab.
Six months later, back on the job, and BOOM....they make him a (you guessed it) a "lead man" (like a supervisor).
Instead of firing the guy, they promote him for "HIS OWN SAFETY".
 

[SigShooter]

Wow... I didn't think the phrase "idiot-proof" would spark so much conversation. I bet Joe Biden will work really hard to have a gaft that effective this election season  Let me explain the context in which I meant idiot-proof and if you disagree with it, that's cool.

Since the title of this tread is "Ultimate Fighting Handgun," I was under the impression that everyone here understands basic gun safety, especially keeping their fingers off the trigger of any gun. I meant idiot-proof as in you don't have to think about how to operate the gun when a bad guy is attacking you. With tons of training and experience, operating a 1911 is second nature to many people, especially those who grew up with 1911s in pre-Glock times.

The 1911 field strips in seconds WITH NO TOOLS. Once it's field -stripped I can use parts of the pistol as tools to disassemble it much further. I did this to another guy's .45 when I was in the army and handed his pistol back in several pieces inside his helmet. I didn't remove the sights or grip screw bushings because you're not suppossed to take them off. Other than that it was completelty disassembled right down to the magazine catch lock and spring, etc, with no tools.

I am aware that some 1911s can be field stripped without tools, but those then to be pretty loose and used. Why to new ones come with a bushing wrench. If it wasn't necessary at least in the first few cleaning sessions, they wouldn't supply a nice piece of steel that could contribute to another gun or gun parts. And with the price of steel going up, that's no small matter when it comes to thousands of bushing wrenches.

In my previous post, I also addressed the grip safety.

Also, if you're holding onto the slide using the pistol to pound nails in, then you aren't holding the grip safety in. But if you're holding the pistol by the grip in anything even that even remotely resembles the proper manner, you ARE holding the grip safety in properly. That's all there is to it. It's so simple a caveman can do it. No speed bumps or pads on the grip safety are neccesary, but several aftermarket "improvements" are available if you feel you need them. Most people have gotten along fine without them for 101 years. (The design was tested 4 years prior to adoption.)

Speed bumps and pads are probably more of a personal choice rather than a necessity, I'll give you that Jumbofrank. But I why then did Wayne Novak develop "The Anwser?" (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/The+Answer) For those that haven't heard of it, it's simply a way of removing the grip safety all together. I believe MB has commented on one of his podcasts that he has seen at least race guns with pinned grip safeties, if not fighting guns. So the ideal that the grip safety is the greatest feature of the 1911 is, IMHO slightly of course.

Furthermore, JMB elimated the grip safety on the Browning Hi-Power, instead opting for a magazine safety, which I don't like either. And the barrel bushing was also elimated, making take down even easier and involving fewer parts. If JMB thought the 1911 was the perfect platform for centerfire cartridges, then why didn't he simply create a 9mm 1911? The anwser is that he knew of some improvements that could be made and even though he didn't complete the design, his pattern elimated the grip safety, the grip profile of the 1911, and simplified takedown to require fewer parts in the design.

In conclusion, let me say that I completely respect all the views of those who contribute here. I also have great respect for the 1911, but I don't think it's as good as everyone else seems to think it is. Although I may not be the most experienced shooter here, I love to study guns and read as much as I can from as many different people as I can. I also shoot occassionally, when I can afford it. I will always keep in mind my level of knowledge and consider how much I really know before I submit it for others to read. But I will always say what I mean and stand behind it 100%.