The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: billt on December 17, 2016, 06:23:34 AM
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I've never understood this. And the more I hear it, the less I understand it, and the more foolish it sounds. All this complaining how Glock pistols have, "the wrong grip angle". What is a right one? Just because something is different than what you're used to does not make it, "wrong". I hear these people constantly complain that when they point a Glock they're looking at the top of the slide, instead of the sights. And somehow because of that the grip angle is, "wrong". Well how about this for a novel idea... Move your wrist so the sights are actually where they're supposed to be.
These same people don't complain when they transfer from a Ruger or Colt single action to a semi auto. Why not? The grip angle is far more acutely different. It seems they only whine when it's a Glock. It makes zero sense. The 1911 grip angle (all 1911 variants, Springfield XD, etc.) is more nearly square to the slide (about 18 degrees off square), while the Glock grip angle (Luger, Steyr M series, H&K P7, Ruger Mk II, etc.) is more raked (about 22 degrees off square). Are these people really trying to say they can't shoot the gun properly because the grip angle is different by only 4 degrees? That's ridiculous.
If you don't like the looks of the gun, that's fine. If you think it's too expensive to fit you're budget, that's also an acceptable reason to not want one. Even if for some reason you like your pistols with 27 different levers, buttons, and grip safeties. I can understand that. But to whine about the grip angle is just plain foolish. People aren't born with fused wrist joints. I own all but countless handguns in most every conceivable action type, size, and grip. I can go from one to the other by simply adjusting my grip and my wrist to suit that particular handgun.
And it's not as if Glock just decided to manufacture this pistol on a whim, without giving any thought to the grip, or the angle. Gaston Glock consulted many doctors, and did many studies concerning the physiology of people and the use of their hands before settling on the grip angle of the Glock. I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but it would seem after all of that, along with the fact millions of Glock handguns have been successfully put into service over the last 30 years, that there is nothing "wrong" with the grip angle. Only with the shooters who cannot adjust to using the gun properly.
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The grip angle doesn't bother me,it's those damn finger groove bumps that I hate.I refuse to buy a pistol that I have to take a file to the grip frame to make it comfortable.
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Considering the variety of guns I shoot, grip angle has never been something that has concerned me. Of course I'm just an amateur. If I were a pro at shooting steel, then all my guns would need an identical grip angle because so much is riding on that first instinctive shot. But like you said, one or the other isn't right or wrong, just different.
THAT SAID: What I hate about the Glock is the trigger. It hangs up sometimes. I've been told it's because I have my finger on the trigger wrong. And I will admit it happens less as I put more rounds downrange, but still it's such a minor difference in placement of the finger that causes it. For that reason I wonder if this could be a detriment in a high stress situation.
The Glock trigger also rubs the bottom of my trigger finger raw. After a 100 or so rounds it's down right painful. I have what I call a Glock Callus on my trigger finger. I don't get this with my M&Ps or any of my revolvers. This winter I may take an emery board to some of the rougher spots to see if I can alleviate this.
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Agree about the trigger. Glock has a lot of strong points. The trigger isn't one of them. Then again these are service weapons, not target pistols.
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Agree about the trigger. Glock has a lot of strong points. The trigger isn't one of them. Then again these are service weapons, not target pistols.
Just the opposite I'd think. Not talking about the crispness or over-travel, but that a trigger locks up and can't be pulled because the finger is resting on it just slightly differently. Such finickiness can be tolerated in a target pistol where you have the time and where-with-all to adjust. In a service pistol it needs to go bang no matter how the finger is positioned. Even more so under stress and loss of fine motor skills.
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Bill must have never shot aP 38 That angle is just WRONG
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Never saw any problem with the Glock grip angle, double stack makes it a bit FAT for my stubby fingers.
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Billt, IMHO something that is advertised as "perfection" and isn't deserves to be criticized. The Glock came along during the period when the 1911 ruled. You would think that GG would have designed the Glock with a grip angle closer to the 1911 so that it would satisfy more people! As for the finger grooves, if the Gen 1 was "perfection" why did they add FG to the Gen 2 and why are they going back to nonFG frames? The grip angle doesn't bother me because I am an old revo shooter and the Glock has a grip angle closer to the revo. The finger grooves do bother me!
JMHOFWIW
Richard
PS: If the Glock is "perfection" why don't they give it a decent set of sturdy usable sights?
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as a long time 1911 shooter, the grip angle is wrong.
I can grab a 1911, close my eyes, raise it to target level, open them and be on target.
I can not do that with a glock.
is some of that me, yes, but not all. glocks grip angle is more for euro tastes and shooting practices.
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Friends don't let friends buy Blocks. :o
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I took a fine file to the inside of the trigger frame years ago because of a sore finger.
For the trigger, there is a after market trigger called "The Edge" trigger. It is a competition trigger.
It is very easy to install, and works GREAT. One of my daughters shoots 15 round
groups that are at 1 inch at 15 yards. This is a gen 3 model 35. The trigger came from glocktriggers.com.
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There is no reason for people not to be able to shoot a Glock well, that you can blame on the gun. And this includes the grip angle. (Which is about the same as a Luger, which is considered to be one of the most natural pointing pistols in the world). You should be able to shoot them ALL well.
You could give Paul McCartney or Eric Clapton ANY guitar, and they'll play the $h!t out of it until the strings break. They may say they prefer a different type or style of guitar, but they can play any one they pick up well. Because they are musicians who know how to play, period. Just as a good pistol shooter can shoot ANY handgun he picks up.
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Doesn't mean they won't btch like old ladies about any little difference between the guitar they're playing and the one they usually play.
I'm surprised the long time Luger, or .22 shooters aren't complaining about the 1911 grip angle.
As for Glock sites and triggers, both are replaceable.
Finger grooves is simple enough, enough people wanted them to make it worth doing.
Gaston only has one motivation and that is selling guns.
He built the best gun he could come up with, not because he gives a crap about guns or shooting, but because reliable guns sell better.
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There is no reason for people not to be able to shoot a Glock well, that you can blame on the gun. And this includes the grip angle. (Which is about the same as a Luger, which is considered to be one of the most natural pointing pistols in the world). You should be able to shoot them ALL well.
You could give Paul McCartney or Eric Clapton ANY guitar, and they'll play the $h!t out of it until the strings break. They may say they prefer a different type or style of guitar, but they can play any one they pick up well. Because they are musicians who know how to play, period. Just as a good pistol shooter can shoot ANY handgun he picks up.
I can assure you, you give them a full size concert necked classical guitar with gut stringsand they will have a hard time playing it and thier hands willl hurt. They are quite literally a 2x4.
They are too use to playing on thin necked guitars. Just like if I take a 34oz framing hammer and give it too a framer that is use to a 28oz. Can they use it? Sure, will they be as fast? Nope and will hurt more at tge end of the day.
I run a 26oz weight forward hammer( think star trek inspired, it would fit in perfect on thier set.) every time I go too the framer it takes several thosand nails to where I can actually set the nail in 2-3 hits. Its a completely different feel and arch on the swing.
There is a reason the industry has gone to wieght forward and ultra light wieght ti hammers. Faster swings= more force, less damage too the man. No, you really don't want too know what guys are spending on hammers these days. $200 too start. My wieght forward ti probably cost more then I could buy a leo turn in glock. Long gone are tge days of waffle faced steel with would handles. Don't even get me started on the barilium copper models for power plant use... you could buy a custom 1911 for their cost.
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I remember when fiberglass handle hammers came out way long ago. The "old guys" made fun of them and my dad used his fiberglass handle hammer long after the "old guys" had to change out a couple of wood handles.
My wife has the Glock 19 as a carry. I can shoot it but I prefer my full sized M&P or...and you "old guys" here remember the hub-bub my Ruger SR-9.
Several thousand rounds through two SR-9's and not a failure. The $19.95 Ghost trigger connector created the absolute best trigger reset I have in anything and made the pull more than acceptable. For me reset is where it is at.
Thread drift. The main thing to remember here, "Friends don't let friends buy Blocks." :o
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Billt, IMHO something that is advertised as "perfection" and isn't deserves to be criticized. The Glock came along during the period when the 1911 ruled. You would think that GG would have designed the Glock with a grip angle closer to the 1911 so that it would satisfy more people! As for the finger grooves, if the Gen 1 was "perfection" why did they add FG to the Gen 2 and why are they going back to nonFG frames? The grip angle doesn't bother me because I am an old revo shooter and the Glock has a grip angle closer to the revo. The finger grooves do bother me!
JMHOFWIW
Richard
PS: If the Glock is "perfection" why don't they give it a decent set of sturdy usable sights?
The 1911 was and is a very popular pistol, but to say "it ruled" is assuming the Europeans liked what we had in the United States. The Glock is a European firearm! This is also the reason it is based on a 9mm Luger (9x19) foundation.
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If you have a Glock, and if you have issues with the grip angle, and if you are keeping it, try the following:
Warning: Basic instruction to follow!
1. Apply firm correct grip of pistol with dominate/strong hand;
2. Draw pistol from holster;
3. Apply supporting grip with support/weak hand;
4. Apply proper gripping pressure (70% support/30% strong);
5. Raise pistol sights to eye level with head and neck in an erect position;
6. While maintaining sight alignment, press pistol forward toward target;
7. Dry fire;
8. Repeat, repeat, repeat, until you can present the sights on target instinctively.
If you can't accomplish this, trade the gun off! Or, find a new hobby or self defense tool.
I am not really a Glock fan (especially the finger groves), but I have one. Glock is a quality firearm, and functions well. If you have an issue with the Glock it is most likely that the gun is just not right for you - Not that the gun is designed and/or engineered wrong.
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I remember when fiberglass handle hammers came out way long ago. The "old guys" made fun of them and my dad used his fiberglass handle hammer long after the "old guys" had to change out a couple of wood handles.
My wife has the Glock 19 as a carry. I can shoot it but I prefer my full sized M&P or...and you "old guys" here remember the hub-bub my Ruger SR-9.
Several thousand rounds through two SR-9's and not a failure. The $19.95 Ghost trigger connector created the absolute best trigger reset I have in anything and made the pull more than acceptable. For me reset is where it is at.
Thread drift. The main thing to remember here, "Friends don't let friends buy Blocks." :o
my weight forward is a fiber renforced nylon type material. sadly the company that makes it, no longer makes it in the 26 oz size with out a "cut" face( think high tech waffles) which I don't want for an every day hammer. I want to be able to use it on things like chisels and nail set with out screwing them up. they also moved away from the more recetanglar head to a round one so I can't just put the only hardend smooth face on the ti frame.
yes, I called them and offered them twice retail if they could make me another one. no dice, all the tooling was long gone. I am going to be very sad when it breaks. had it about 10 years now.
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m58. I should have worded my post "the Glock came along in the US when the 1911 ruled in competition". The 1911 did rule in competition at the time. The law enforcement community accepted the Glock because it has a grip angle similar to the revo many of them were used to.
I will also agree that GG was only interested in making money/selling his pistols but to use the term Glock Perfection.....I don't know.
Richard
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m58. I should have worded my post "the Glock came along in the US when the 1911 ruled in competition". The 1911 did rule in competition at the time. The law enforcement community accepted the Glock because it has a grip angle similar to the revo many of them were used to.
I will also agree that GG was only interested in making money/selling his pistols but to use the term Glock Perfection.....I don't know.
Richard
no, most lea adopted the glock because it was dirt cheap. under $300 a unit, with mags, lots of free spare parts and training. I kid you not, you could not pay the hourly rate for a machinest to build the thing for what they charge a lea. for a pistol
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Grip angle doesn't really bother me either. Finger "bumps" do. Glock had to put the "bumps" on the grip to earn enough points to be able to import the gun into the United States. The new guns without the "bumps" are being manufactured in the US so the import points do not apply. I had a G23 that I sent out to have the "bumps" removed. They are still on my G19, but the spacing seems to be a little different...at least my ring finger doesn't hurt from being pounded against the "bump" when I shoot a lot of rounds.
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Once again, you fellas have talked me out of buying a Glock! I've shot enough handguns to not really be bother by grip angle but the bumps do bother me when I handled my SIL's recently acquired G19.
I'm stingy with my cash so I'll keep plinking away with my P6, for now...still looking to buy a 1911 again too!
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I really don't understand a lot of complaints about different firearms barring a failure of some sort.Complaints about trigger pull,grip angle,reset and blah blah blah.The way I look at it,if these things bother you so bad it makes you shoot crappy then I think you probably can't shoot well in the first place.I'm really not trying to insult anyone,far from it.I've been shooting firearms about 55 years now,I pick up a weapon that is new to me,fire a few rounds to adjust then good to go.I can see some mods for competitive shooters but the average shooter should just learn to shoot properly and everything will fall in to place. (Flame suit on)
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I really don't understand a lot of complaints about different firearms barring a failure of some sort.Complaints about trigger pull,grip angle,reset and blah blah blah.The way I look at it,if these things bother you so bad it makes you shoot crappy then I think you probably can't shoot well in the first place.I'm really not trying to insult anyone,far from it.I've been shooting firearms about 55 years now,I pick up a weapon that is new to me,fire a few rounds to adjust then good to go.I can see some mods for competitive shooters but the average shooter should just learn to shoot properly and everything will fall in to place. (Flame suit on)
I could not agree more.
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I really don't understand a lot of complaints about different firearms barring a failure of some sort.Complaints about trigger pull,grip angle,reset and blah blah blah.The way I look at it,if these things bother you so bad it makes you shoot crappy then I think you probably can't shoot well in the first place.I'm really not trying to insult anyone,far from it.I've been shooting firearms about 55 years now,I pick up a weapon that is new to me,fire a few rounds to adjust then good to go.I can see some mods for competitive shooters but the average shooter should just learn to shoot properly and everything will fall in to place. (Flame suit on)
I agree.
There are few competent marksmen around these days.
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It's got nothing to do with shooting skill .
It's about physical realities like big or small hands, (I defy any of you "competent marksmen" to shoot a standard NAA derringer well) and personal preference.
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It's got nothing to do with shooting skill .
It's about physical realities like big or small hands, (I defy any of you "competent marksmen" to shoot a standard NAA derringer well) and personal preference.
This doesn't mean the gun sucks. It just means it isn't the gun for you.
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Gee, maybe that's why tey make so many different types and styles.
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my weight forward is a fiber renforced nylon type material. sadly the company that makes it, no longer makes it in the 26 oz size with out a "cut" face( think high tech waffles) which I don't want for an every day hammer. I want to be able to use it on things like chisels and nail set with out screwing them up. they also moved away from the more recetanglar head to a round one so I can't just put the only hardend smooth face on the ti frame.
yes, I called them and offered them twice retail if they could make me another one. no dice, all the tooling was long gone. I am going to be very sad when it breaks. had it about 10 years now.
Two words. eBay. Err, that's one word. Sorry.
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It's got nothing to do with shooting skill .
It's about physical realities like big or small hands, (I defy any of you "competent marksmen" to shoot a standard NAA derringer well) and personal preference.
This is one area where we will just have to "agree to disagree".... ;) ;D
IMHO, shooting skill has everything to do with it....whether a product of natural ability or just plain time shooting.....or a combination of both.
I do understand what you are saying and I agree that guns are different and fit everyone differently. But, a person who can shoot a 1911 really well, should be able to transition to a Glock with minimal adjustments. That is what I meant by "competent marksman."
I'll be 49 years old next month, and I've been shooting for 40 of those years....and I can look anyone in the eye and make the statement to the effect that I have never had anyone hand me a gun that I'm unfamiliar with, that inside five or so shots, that I couldn't hit with effectively and continuously. That includes anything from a NAA mini to a Barrett .50 BMG to an HK MP5.
Bob Munden hit a balloon at 200 yards with a NAA....so did Jerry Miculek.... I can't do that.... but, I can hit with it every time at the distance it was intended to be shoot at.
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The onliest one I couldn't hit anything wit was one of dem M&P Shields in .40 S&W...
Missed every round at 10 yards... Guy that owned it couldn't hit the the broadside of the barn from the INSIDE!
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The onliest one I couldn't hit anything wit was one of dem M&P Shields in .40 S&W...
Missed every round at 10 yards... Guy that owned it couldn't hit the the broadside of the barn from the INSIDE!
My best friend growing up had a Llama 1911 .45 that I had to hold 6" of Kentucky windage to hit a coke can at ten yards.
I count myself as rather fortunate to not have had any "lemons" over the years.
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That same kid, a few minutes later fired one round from that shield, hit the center of the X, proudly exclaimed "I'm Done, can't do better than that!"
Packed up his gear and went home! I think he's since sold that lil gun..
joined the Army reserves this past year.
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This is one area where we will just have to "agree to disagree".... ;) ;D
IMHO, shooting skill has everything to do with it....whether a product of natural ability or just plain time shooting.....or a combination of both.
I do understand what you are saying and I agree that guns are different and fit everyone differently. But, a person who can shoot a 1911 really well, should be able to transition to a Glock with minimal adjustments. That is what I meant by "competent marksman."
I'll be 49 years old next month, and I've been shooting for 40 of those years....and I can look anyone in the eye and make the statement to the effect that I have never had anyone hand me a gun that I'm unfamiliar with, that inside five or so shots, that I couldn't hit with effectively and continuously. That includes anything from a NAA mini to a Barrett .50 BMG to an HK MP5.
Bob Munden hit a balloon at 200 yards with a NAA....so did Jerry Miculek.... I can't do that.... but, I can hit with it every time at the distance it was intended to be shoot at.
I can't hit a target much beyond arm's length with my NAA mini. I still haven't figured out what the sight picture should be with no rear sight. I don't shoot any of my guns often enough to be any good at it and probably haven't shot at all in 2 or 3 years. I'm too much of a couch potato.
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This is one area where we will just have to "agree to disagree".... ;) ;D
IMHO, shooting skill has everything to do with it....whether a product of natural ability or just plain time shooting.....or a combination of both.
I do understand what you are saying and I agree that guns are different and fit everyone differently. But, a person who can shoot a 1911 really well, should be able to transition to a Glock with minimal adjustments. That is what I meant by "competent marksman."
I'll be 49 years old next month, and I've been shooting for 40 of those years....and I can look anyone in the eye and make the statement to the effect that I have never had anyone hand me a gun that I'm unfamiliar with, that inside five or so shots, that I couldn't hit with effectively and continuously. That includes anything from a NAA mini to a Barrett .50 BMG to an HK MP5.
Bob Munden hit a balloon at 200 yards with a NAA....so did Jerry Miculek.... I can't do that.... but, I can hit with it every time at the distance it was intended to be shoot at.
Puppy. ;D.
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Puppy. ;D.
Yeah, yeah...
But thanks to eight or so years on here (with some of you older farts influencing my innocent demeanor), my bite and my bark are pretty evenly matched....and I can growl really good too......from both ends. :o
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Don't blame me for the growing, I don't think I've ever posted one of my own recipes.
But to renew the earlier disagreement, I would suggest that there is a uge difference bettween shootin a strange gun well, and shooting it well ENOUGH, and the difference is entirely due to comfort and familiarity.
Jerry M. may be able to hit targets with an NAA but he isn't going to do it like with his Smith.
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Jerry M. may be able to hit targets with an NAA but he isn't going to do it like with his Smith.
Or the first time!
How many shots did Jerry or Bob shoot before they hit the target?
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https://youtu.be/H0qe45Z8wfk (https://youtu.be/H0qe45Z8wfk)
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Someone on YouTube commented "Ancient religions and hokey superstitions are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." ;D
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I understood the truth o that when my Sensai asked me about to recommend a good pistol for his wife ;D