The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Dakotaranger on February 14, 2007, 02:58:59 AM
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I'm looking for a pistol for my mom. She has a bad back and I have no grand dillusions she would carry 98% of the time. The parameters I'm looking for:
- No combat tupperware
- heavier is better so as to reduce recoil
- thinking of .38 or .357 and telling her to run .38's through it.
- It will probably be just a vehicle and/or only for hiking gun so it doesn't necessarily need to be a snubbie
- have recoil reducing grips
Mom and I discussed it yesterday and I know that she won't be putting millions of rounds through it, it would be mainly for putting a deer down or if she came accross a mountain lion.
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I'd give her a 4" Colt Trooper in 357 and load her up with moderate 38's. It's real simple to shoot(just aim, squeeze and bang) and nearly unjamable being a revo.
Just my recommendation. Best of luck
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My wife has always been partial to my Ruger GP-100 (4" Blue) - they are already setup with the nice cushy grips...
Definitely go with some moderate .38's - I like the Winchester Winclean - good performance low smoke.
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I will second the GP100. It is an outstanding gun. Or one of the Smith and Wessons would do just fine as well.
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I think a Smith and Wesson 686 4" loaded with .38 would be a great choice. It comes with nice soft Hogue rubber grips to reduce felt recoil. If she could handle .38+P then you have that option. I'll assume that .357 Magnum is too much, but the revolver gives you a choice of all three and it has a nice weight and smooth DA/SA trigger pull. You also have a choice of 6 shot or 7 shot models. I love my 686 4" (no dash) from 1983. Really easy to shoot .38s as well.
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For a defensive gun you might want to look at this http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=54&category=Revolver
This is the Taurus 17 Mach2, 9 shot bobbed hammer snubbie. There is very low recoil with this cartridge/firearm but the effect of the 17 on tissue is huge.
Just a thought that might work out for her.
Mike
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For a defensive gun you might want to look at this http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=54&category=Revolver
This is the Taurus 17 Mach2, 9 shot bobbed hammer snubbie. There is very low recoil with this cartridge/firearm but the effect of the 17 on tissue is huge.
Just a thought that might work out for her.
Mike
Gotta disagree. First the.17 is too small for defense.
Second and more important.. I friend just bought two NIB Taurus .357s. One in 6" and one in 3". With less than 100 standard 38 rounds both have jammed due to parts shaking loose. Yes the shop fixed 'em both free and fast but two guns BOTH falling apart cured me of ever owning a Taurus.
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anyone know where I can get an ankle holster for my Desert Eagle 50 cal.? LoL just joking. A friend of mine in a similar situation and she carries a Ruger Security Six .357. I have attached photos of my Ruger Security Six for reference, It has not seen daylight for 12 years...lol
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g303/chadeckhart/S8000136.jpg)
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g303/chadeckhart/S8000139.jpg)
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g303/chadeckhart/S8000140.jpg)
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Most people who have not worked with the high velocity 17s would think they are not well suited to defense. Having shot them a great deal into clothing draped ballistic gel I can say the little bullet will make a fearful wound that will discourage most folks pretty quickly. Now, I would not say that the 17 is the best choice for self defense. I would say that for the recoil shy it is an option better than a 22. The wound it will make is very large and very devastating. Will it crush bone? No, but neither will any other load that is very ight recoil. I will also state that I have watched a man shot in the butt with a 1 oz. 12 ga slug out run 3 yound officers.
As far a Taurus revolvers go. They are probably just like Colt or Smiths or any other. Good ones and bad ones. I can tell you that the ones I have shot are quite good. I have a Model 85 2" 38 Spl. that has over 2000 rounds through it and it has never had any problems. I could also tell you of the new Smith I just sent back which would not rotate the cylinder out of the box. This does not mean I think all Smith's are bad, just this one.
I know Michael Bane also shoots some Taurus revolvers with no problems.
I just passed the 1,000,000 round mark from revolvers in '06 so I have a fair understanding of their use and potential. If weight and transportation were not an issue and the lady could handle recoil, I would suggest a cartridge starting with a .4 . If defense is from 4 legged animals such as bear, I would suggest a cartridge starting with .4 . But, for a woman unfamiliar with shooting, who will not shoot much, who is looking to discourage two legged animals, I would suggest the most shootable firearm chambered in the most shootable cartridge so that she is most likely to obtain a hit After seeing the results of shooting the 17 Mach2 into gel, I will stick to that recommendation.
Mike
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MDaly,
I will bow to your superior knowledge concerning the 17.
My fear with the Taurus is 2 bought at the same time both failing. Certainly ALL products will have failures, heck they're made by humans who I have heard, are not perfect. ;). It just seems that MAYBE the quality control might be slipping as they attempt to keep up with demand.
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I think we need a little more info. Will your mother carry it on her person. Does it matter if it shows? A car gun legally carried can be a 8'' to 12'' inch behemoth. If that is the case, I would recommend a 6'' . 357 magnum, practice with .38 midrange wadcutters. Carry 125 grain magnum hollowpoints ( hydra shocks my favorite). If carrying on your person and concealability is a concern. The 3 inch guns give a bit more weight and recoil reduction. If you can still find one, the 32. magnums are not a bad choice. If you had not mentioned mountain lions, all of the above recommendations have merit. Especially the cailber beginning with .4.
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Many people who are "recoil shy" have not yet felt recoil from any gun. As an instructor I have found a number of people who mistakenly associate size of the gun with force of the recoil. I had one man who understood some basic physics, and merely telling him of the inverse relationship between gun size (mass) and felt recoil was sufficient for a head-slap, and a realization that the "big" revolver I was starting him with (K-38) would not recoil as much as the snub J-frame he had purchased, and was concerned with.
Another student had to watch me demonstrate different size handguns and different calibers before she would even pick up a Hi Standard 103 that I hoped would eventually lead her down to the little 22 popgun that her husband had purchased for her to use as a purse-gun (his term, not mine).
There is no need to explain Einstein and Relativity. Just let the student handle different size guns, and see different caliber ammo, and then start them out on decent size gun, mild caliber, to get started on learning the basics.
PS: Be sure you explain and demonstrate safe gun handling while you are doing it!
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It's probably most important to get a gun in her hands and do a bit of shooting. Borrow some suitable candidates and shoot a few rounds. Then go to the gun store and let her feel some more. If she finds one that she likes the feel of she'll ignore any of its shortcomings. Or, even better, she'll come back for a second one.
Of course training can't be underemphasized.
MtnHermit
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I recently turned my GF a true "California Liberal" (no offense intended) into a gun gal. It took about a year to get her to the range.
At first she was very afraid of guns. I and my son (13) would come back from the range and talk about how much fun we had and the good people we met and the challenge of getting better. Then I bought a new 22 for him (Ruger MKIII). She asked to see it. I brought it over and of course went through a complete "unload" drill before I sat down beside her and gave her a quick lesson on how to be sure it is unloaded and NOT to point it at anyone or anything she did not mind shooting whatever it was pointed at even though it was 'unloaded'.
Next I brought over a little 22 snubbie I have and asked if I could leave it at her place. She said sure as long as it was not loaded. I left it there but would load it while I was there and unload it when I left. Then I started to show her more about that gun and how it was a very simple thing to operate and that it could give her some protection when I was not there.
She asked more and more questions and I gave her more and more instruction. Finally she asked to go shoot.
Of course I started with a 22 (my Ruger Single Six). Now she is a gun owner (Sig Mosquito).
It takes time and patience and NEVER push them.
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Many people who are "recoil shy" have not yet felt recoil from any gun. As an instructor I have found a number of people who mistakenly associate size of the gun with force of the recoil. I had one man who understood some basic physics, and merely telling him of the inverse relationship between gun size (mass) and felt recoil was sufficient for a head-slap, and a realization that the "big" revolver I was starting him with (K-38) would not recoil as much as the snub J-frame he had purchased, and was concerned with.
Another student had to watch me demonstrate different size handguns and different calibers before she would even pick up a Hi Standard 103 that I hoped would eventually lead her down to the little 22 popgun that her husband had purchased for her to use as a purse-gun (his term, not mine).
There is no need to explain Einstein and Relativity. Just let the student handle different size guns, and see different caliber ammo, and then start them out on decent size gun, mild caliber, to get started on learning the basics.
PS: Be sure you explain and demonstrate safe gun handling while you are doing it!
She shot as a kid, and over Christmas I had my Mom and sis out shooing. Because of an alcky mom has a bad back and my XD9 hurt her back.
She was pretty scarry with the .22 though (she out shot me ). I'm wanting to get something that she can take with her traveling to put a deer down or when she's hiking that will put down a mountain lion.
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You may want to check out Charter Arms, they are well built (heavy) and many variations, even the .44 spl isnt so bad.
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I would point out first things first here. Budget! If money is not a concern then something from the Performance Center @ S&W which has a power port. If bags of hundreds are not laying around then the regular production PP's are still well made. I happen to use a 629PP for bowling pins and the gun feels like a light 357 or even 38+P going off w/ 270gr.@1100fps. Yes i know, far from a elk load but it is magic on pins. If after looking into the bigger PP 357's and finding out they are not a fit i very much suggest a .22mag revolver. If it is good enough to go though a vest then it will be better than the .17 and ok for defence. Downside ammo cost. But before you turn to the .22Mag look very hard at the airlite's in .22LR would be great stoked w/ a couple of CCI shot shells then veloceters or stingers(which almost mimic the mags velocities from pistols) and your mom has a perfect setup. You never know, she may even show up at the range once and a while packing.
Just my 2cents.
Tex
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You may want to check out Charter Arms, they are well built (heavy) and many variations, even the .44 spl isnt so bad.
Charter makes a .38 that only weighs 12 oz. You don't even notice it in your pocket. Comes with or without the hammer spur, Good reliable gun at as reasonable cost.
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I'm looking for a pistol for my mom. She has a bad back and I have no grand dillusions she would carry 98% of the time. The parameters I'm looking for:
- No combat tupperware
- heavier is better so as to reduce recoil
- thinking of .38 or .357 and telling her to run .38's through it.
- It will probably be just a vehicle and/or only for hiking gun so it doesn't necessarily need to be a snubbie
- have recoil reducing grips
"No combat tupperware"....I like that....hope you haven't trademarked that or otherwise made it your own...I'm gonna steal it.
It's a shame the 5.7 x 28 MM round doesn't come in something other than "combat tupperware". The little 5.7 round in a pistol approximates a .22 WMR rifle, which sounds appropriate for what your Mom needs (and a bunch of other older Americans). I wish I could get a 5.7 x 28 in something that wasn't semi-auto for my mom. She lives alone and has arthritis....that little 5.78 x 28 in a small revolver could be very light (composite frame ?) due to light recoil. It needs to be a bit more than a .22 mag snubbie to begin to provide reliable self-defense protection.
Hey...Sig, Ruger, Charter Arms, S&W, etc....are you guys listening? Sounds like a market to me. People who want light, simple revolvers...people that have physical constraints against recoil and weight but need something to stop a predator....the 5.7 x 28 sounds like a good compromise round to me....pretty big market with the baby boomers getting older. Maybe there is finally a place for the 5.7 x 28...other than just being fun (and expensive) to shoot.
Just in case you guys (manufacturers) heard it here first...I'd like first dibs on a low serial number.
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Rastus, from what ive read the 5/7 is an over penetrating beast that should only be used on the field of combat and not suitable for CCW or home defense. Plus the fact that the cost is way out there. correct me if Im wrong, I really like what ive heard but the application for this round is marginal.
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Rastus, from what ive read the 5/7 is an over penetrating beast that should only be used on the field of combat and not suitable for CCW or home defense. Plus the fact that the cost is way out there. correct me if Im wrong, I really like what ive heard but the application for this round is marginal.
It probably is an overpenetrator with the black tip armor piercing ammo...you can't get that for less than $10 a round (pre-ATF ban off the market for years) nowadays though :'(. I think there is, and ya'll correct me if I am wrong, a whole bunch of hype and disinformation with this thing that's been misrepresented and labeled as "cop killer". I do not carry this round as the commerically available ammo is 40 grain Vmax (SS197) at around 1,750 fps and a lighter, lead-free 28gr(?) hollow point round (SS195) at around 2,034 (probably closer to 1,850 from a pistol) and the gun is as big as my 1911 (much lighter though). Velocity is fine, capacity is great at 20 rounds (are you going to use more than 2 or 3 carrying?) but that little bullet is going to blow up when it hits something (good thing urban areas). In fact, I've heard that it's problem is that it blows up and does not penetrate....however I have also heard from L.E. that the 3 or 4 times it has been used by L.E. the perp hit the ground like a sack of potatoes....again, that's what I heard and that may be part of the mystique and not actual information.
I keep the 5.7 in the house from time-to-time because I don't think it will blast through the walls, etc. and get to family members because it is such a thinly constructed and light weight round. I believe (please correct if wrong) the 10mm, .357, .45, .40, .38, etc. will be deadly on the other side of a sheetrock wall...I don't see how the 5.7 can be nearly so destructive.
Heck, I can't even seem to find a straight answer on what the true velocity of these rounds are. I think that's on purpose for some reason...misinformation out there...mystique, whatever. I kinda liked the P90 rifle but at $1,800 I can get two AR's and have a round with "real" power. I suspect one of the reasons L.E., especially the Secret Service, uses this round is that it is not something that will go through walls and windows with a lot of knock-down power....and the S.S. probably does need to have a bunch of rounds available which you can have with this round.
I equate this round to a 22 magnum from a rifle. Somewhere near 2,000 FPS (I'm looking at handloads at 2,150-2,200) with a light bullet so I don't see how this can be an overpenetrator with lead rounds....especially if you have a ballistic tip on the bullet. But, I would really like this in a snubbie because it would be safer to bystanders in crowds. Just my 2 cents...I'm always learning so flame on back.
Have A Great Day,
Ken
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Rastus, you seem to have a good understanding of this round, more than I do. Look forward to more of your posts on this. Good Luck, and no flames here my friend.....good luck,,,,,Jan
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Velocity is fine, capacity is great at 20 rounds (are you going to use more than 2 or 3 carrying?)
NO Disrespect man, but FN heck ya you are going to shoot more than 2-3times. As many as your frontsight allows. Meaning if your sight falls on centermass presstrigger please. You will continue until mag is empty prob. flinch a couple time then reload.
Thats my 2cents and IMHO should be the facts man. FYI if it was not for a 22mag darenger i would be nothing more than a gleam in my Daddy's eyes. So i agree however I have also heard from L.E. that the 3 or 4 times it has been used by L.E. the perp hit the ground like a sack of potatoe
but i will also state that shotplacement was key. And if that is the case than get a pellet gun. But increase caliber and less important shot placement. Just saying man.
Tex
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Yeah...I was thinking 2 or 3 shots with a snubbie 38...with that FN I'd drop several more in center of mass. And yes, the bigger the load the less important shot placement is which is one reason I like my 10MM Kimber when I can carry it.
My earlier post was, partly, in reference to an elderly person, probably with arthritis, who 1) can't pull a slide back on an auto 2) can't handle a full size revolver (i.e. needs a lighter snubbie, like a Titanium or alloy to reduce weight) 3) won't practice because even .38 cowboy loads will cause them to hurt and lose dexterity for days and 4) might wait too long to use their gun when they need it because they are unfamiliar with it and/or fearful of the recoil.
Which is where I brought up the FN 5.7x28 mm load...it sure would be nice for someone to build a snubbie for the 5.7. I think older people would use it and it should have a lot more velocity and power than a .22 mag shot out of a 2" barrel...22 mag needs at least 16" or more to get to advertised velocities whereas the 5.7, properly loaded, can get to 2,200 FPS with a 5" barrel so it shouldn't suffer as much, proportionately, velocity loss as a .22 mag shot from a 2" barrel. And, that's why I think the 5.7 would be a more robust round than the 22 mag. Does anyone make anything bigger than a derrigner, but smaller than a small sized pistol, something like a snubbie in 22 mag? If there is a 22 mag snubbie out there I need to get one for my mom to have around. Anyway, thanks for the reply I did need to clear up my post.
NO Disrespect man, but FN heck ya you are going to shoot more than 2-3times. As many as your frontsight allows. Meaning if your sight falls on centermass presstrigger please. You will continue until mag is empty prob. flinch a couple time then reload.
Thats my 2cents and IMHO should be the facts man. FYI if it was not for a 22mag darenger i would be nothing more than a gleam in my Daddy's eyes. So i agree but i will also state that shotplacement was key. And if that is the case than get a pellet gun. But increase caliber and less important shot placement. Just saying man.
Tex
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Does anyone make anything bigger than a derrigner, but smaller than a small sized pistol, something like a snubbie in 22 mag?
Why yes Rastus, a company named charter arms made a 9shot, 22mag snubby and it was frowned on due to the fact that if could defeat body armor! A sad thing but there are a lot of them out there, and the one at my shop being MA compliant is marked up but they should still be short money(under $250) for your Mom. Before you look into the 22mag i will still recommend that you look into the Airlite 22LR from www.smith-wesson.com due to the fact that out of a snubby, the Stinger or Velociters from CCI, will match or even out preform most 22mag out of the same length barrel. No Joke! And to boot if your Mom does pratice she will not be taking the abuse that a 22mag might even deal out to her wrist. For a lot less cash might i add.
Just saying man
tex
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Good deal. I didn't know there was one out there. Headed to the site now.....
Thanks,
Ken
Why yes Rastus,.............i will still recommend that you look into the Airlite 22LR from www.smith-wesson.com due to the fact that out of a snubby, the Stinger or Velociters from CCI, will match or even out preform most 22mag out of the same length barrel. No Joke! And to boot if your Mom does pratice she will not be taking the abuse that a 22mag might even deal out to her wrist. For a lot less cash might i add.
Just saying man
tex