The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Fatman on November 18, 2008, 09:26:43 PM
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Wednesday, July 9, 2008
CCW permits from a law enforcement perspective
As a law enforcement professional I strongly support the right of a citizen to carry a firearm for protection of themselves and others. I believe that this is not only a right but a responsibility that should be taken very seriously. You are ultimately responsible for the safety of yourself and your family.
Don't let anyone tell you that the police are responsible for your safety because that simply is not true. When I started in law enforcement we averaged about 1 officer for every 1200 citizens. Now that number is more like 1 officer for every 1500. Can you ensure the safety of 1500 people? Neither can I. Also remember that of those 1500 people that need protection a significant number of them are criminals who will not cooperate with you and will actively try to harm the others. Try to remember that the original and often forgotten role of the police is to punish those who break the law. Working in a bad part of town this really becomes clear when you go days on end without ever having any contact with a decent, law abiding citizen. But I am getting off topic.
I remember in my patrol car driving days when I would make a traffic stop and make the gut wrenching walk to the drivers window. If you think you are nervous when you get pulled over, think about what its like from the other end. Not only are you worried about what the occupants of the car are doing (reaching for a gun, hiding dope, getting ready to run) but also about the cars coming up behind you that can kill you just as dead as a bullet but, YOU CANNOT LOOK OUT FOR THEM because you can't take your eyes of the occupants of the car you just pulled over.
Imagine the relief when the driver hands you a drivers license and a CCW permit. Those two things tell you a lot about a person. One, I can know for certain who this person is and two, this person has subjected themselves to a criminal background check and the State has said yes, we trust you with a concealed weapon. This is probably not a bad guy here.
I know for me personally these folks were usually handed back their drivers license and CCW permit, thanked for taking responsibility for their own safety and sent on their way. I know for me a traffic stop was never about just writting a ticket, but about finding the bad folks so I could help them get into jail. A traffic violation is a little thing that helps you find the big things.
In the years I have been in law enforcement I have had only one bad encounter with a CCW holder. But he was also a private investigator.......and he was drunk. But that story is best left for some other time.
Update 07/14/08: I see from the comments that I have caused some controversy over my assertion that the original role of the police is to punish those that break the law. I fear that I have misspoke. That thought would be better expressed "bring to punishment" those that break the law. Please see the insightful commentary from JPG in the comments. I agree that punishment of offenders is reserved for the judiciary although I do feel that it is so far removed from the commission of the offense that the offender may not even associate the two. Often the only "perceived" punishment that offenders recognize is the inconvenience of getting caught, going to jail, getting interrogated by a detective or getting a warrant issued for them. I should have been more careful in my wording.
http://cowtowncop.blogspot.com/2008/07/ccw-permits-from-law-enforcement.html (http://cowtowncop.blogspot.com/2008/07/ccw-permits-from-law-enforcement.html)
Need more like this gent to speak up! it's the administrators in the big city PDs that tend to be against CCW. They have to answer to the mayors and city councils. My neighbor is retired NYPD and he flat-out said he and the majority of the patrol officers were never worried about guns in the hands (or pockets) of the law abiding public.
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MY exp with LEOs all over the US is that its split, 25% are against it, 25% are for it, 25% are for it for just them and the other 25% have not made up thier minds.
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Everyone I know with a CCW that has been pulled over was sent on their way w/o a ticket once the officer saw their CCW permit.
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Everyone I know with a CCW that has been pulled over was sent on their way w/o a ticket once the officer saw their CCW permit.
which just shows how bad LEOs have become.
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which just shows how bad LEOs have become.
Although I normally don't jump in to disagree with someone, your ideology makes no sense whatsoever, Tab. As stated by the LEO at the beginning of the thread, traffic stops are frequently used as a tool to uncover larger crimes. The majority of CCW holders, including myself, are law abiding citizens and have, as he mentioned, already passed the required criminal background checks. That being said, if you are a LEO and pull someone over for a minor traffic violation (mild speeding for instance) and they provide documentation that says, according to state and federal agencies, that they are not dangerous criminals, why would you not give them a break? My experiences with LEOs have all been positive anyway, but I have always treated them like I would want to be treated if our rolls were reversed. Unless the traffic violation is a major one, their time is much better served by persuing "real" criminals, rather than writing me a ticket for a minor violation. IMO, the CCW just gives them instant notification that the person in question, more than likely, has no warrants and isn't committing any major crimes, thus it is a sign the LEO is using sound judgement and not a sign of "... how bad LEOs have become."
Swoop
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When I went to turn in my paperwork and get fingerprinted for my CCW permit, there were two of us getting processed. We had a chance to talk a bit with the officer taking the prints. He said that when the CCW law was passed here in Kansas, he originally didn't think it was a good idea.
But after meeting several hundred applicants, he had changed his mind. He saw that these were the people that SHOULD be carrying guns.
Now, I wouldn't expect to use my CCW license to skate a traffic ticket. But I do think that more and more cops are realizing that a CCW is prima facie evidence that the bearer is a Good Citizen.
Grizzle Bear
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When I went to turn in my paperwork and get fingerprinted for my CCW permit, there were two of us getting processed. We had a chance to talk a bit with the officer taking the prints. He said that when the CCW law was passed here in Kansas, he originally didn't think it was a good idea.
But after meeting several hundred applicants, he had changed his mind. He saw that these were the people that SHOULD be carrying guns.
Now, I wouldn't expect to use my CCW license to skate a traffic ticket. But I do think that more and more cops are realizing that a CCW is prima facie evidence that the bearer is a Good Citizen.
Grizzle Bear
Similar experience here. The sheriff's deputy assigned the ccw job was initially very cold to me and voiced his 'concerns' about civvies carrying. When I went back to renew last year, his tune had changed, and the whole court house police staff was much friendlier. Not one incident of a ccw holder committing a crime involving the weapon in over ten years. And despite the Brady Bunch's claim, incidents of any crime were much lower in the ccw crowd than the population at large.
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Although I normally don't jump in to disagree with someone, your ideology makes no sense whatsoever, Tab. As stated by the LEO at the beginning of the thread, traffic stops are frequently used as a tool to uncover larger crimes. The majority of CCW holders, including myself, are law abiding citizens and have, as he mentioned, already passed the required criminal background checks. That being said, if you are a LEO and pull someone over for a minor traffic violation (mild speeding for instance) and they provide documentation that says, according to state and federal agencies, that they are not dangerous criminals, why would you not give them a break? My experiences with LEOs have all been positive anyway, but I have always treated them like I would want to be treated if our rolls were reversed. Unless the traffic violation is a major one, their time is much better served by persuing "real" criminals, rather than writing me a ticket for a minor violation. IMO, the CCW just gives them instant notification that the person in question, more than likely, has no warrants and isn't committing any major crimes, thus it is a sign the LEO is using sound judgement and not a sign of "... how bad LEOs have become."
Swoop
Bullseye!
I forgot to add, that none of the people I was referring to were pulled over by Highway Patrol.
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Similar experience here. The sheriff's deputy assigned the ccw job was initially very cold to me and voiced his 'concerns' about civvies carrying. When I went back to renew last year, his tune had changed, and the whole court house police staff was much friendlier. Not one incident of a ccw holder committing a crime involving the weapon in over ten years. And despite the Brady Bunch's claim, incidents of any crime were much lower in the ccw crowd than the population at large.
The wife and I went to a Citizens Police Academy. I had a chance to talk to alot of the officers about ccw and everyone of them said they were for citizens having ccw. And have never had a problem with ccw citizens.
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I read a statistic, I think it was a few years ago, that police officers are 11 times more likely to shoot the wrong person than the rest of us are. Maybe it was 13 times more. Anyway, I guess we should worry about the police carrying guns but they don't need to worry about us.
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Need more like this gent to speak up! it's the administrators in the big city PDs that tend to be against CCW. They have to answer to the mayors and city councils. My neighbor is retired NYPD and he flat-out said he and the majority of the patrol officers were never worried about guns in the hands (or pockets) of the law abiding public.
And that is the issue... It seems that once you become an Administrator, in big cities, you stop thinking like a cop and become a flunky for the mayor. Our local Sheriff is all for CCW but it won't happen due to Baltimore. He was the instructor in one of my college classes and had a lot of respect for the MPDC Commisssioner until Heller was announced and she fell in line with Mayor Fenty, making it difficult to actaully be able to get a permit in DC.
Patrol likes the "backup."
Although I was Navy LE so I had a relatively benign population we would regularly stop cars with lights out or rolling through stop signs to check for DUI. We hardly ever gave out tickets unless it was something really bad or the driver was REALLY stupid. We didn't have any CCW but the local Sheriff and CHP did and most of the permit holders were CA Dept of Corrections or people that were not inovled in illegal activity so the Deputies were much more comfortable and typically only gave you a warning, again unless you really did something dumb.
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So your ok with cops giving people a pass becuase they have a CCW? What about other things?
Lets say Contractors lic... funny, they use the exact same back ground check for people that have CL that they do for CCW. Only there is more recs for having a CL. So every one that has a CL should get a free pass, right? its the same thing.
What about people like myself that have clearance to work on nuclear power plants, I can asure the back ground check for that is alot more then it is for any CCW nation wide.( took ~ 6 months, had people I had not seen in 10 years calling me up saying why did the Feds call me asking questions about you) Should that be a free pass?
What should be a free pass?
If you break the small laws, whats stoping you from breaking the big laws?
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So your ok with cops giving people a pass becuase they have a CCW? What about other things?
Lets say Contractors lic... funny, they use the exact same back ground check for people that have CL that they do for CCW. Only there is more recs for having a CL. So every one that has a CL should get a free pass, right? its the same thing.
What about people like myself that have clearance to work on nuclear power plants, I can asure the back ground check for that is alot more then it is for any CCW nation wide.( took ~ 6 months, had people I had not seen in 10 years calling me up saying why did the Feds call me asking questions about you) Should that be a free pass?
What should be a free pass?
If you break the small laws, whats stoping you from breaking the big laws?
First and foremost a CCW is looked at by a Law Enforcement agency, a CL or even the background check for a nuc plant is done by the government. Plus a CCW is a card in your wallet that is understood to have been issued after such a check by a dept. A CL doesn't guarantee that ANY background check has been done. It may be done in some areas but not necessarily at a national level.
A secerty clearance isn't tatooed on your forehead and you don't have a card that says what clearance you have, unless you have a badge for a facilty, and they don't have that on it except for maybe a colored band that only employees of that facility would know what it means.
A CCW isn't always a "free pass" and doesn't mean you still won't be arrested or given a ticket. Do all LEOs give "passes" for some things sure, do they also have a duty to do a job and do it safely and fairly DEFINATELY.
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So your ok with cops giving people a pass becuase they have a CCW? What about other things?
Lets say Contractors lic... funny, they use the exact same back ground check for people that have CL that they do for CCW. Only there is more recs for having a CL. So every one that has a CL should get a free pass, right? its the same thing.
What about people like myself that have clearance to work on nuclear power plants, I can asure the back ground check for that is alot more then it is for any CCW nation wide.( took ~ 6 months, had people I had not seen in 10 years calling me up saying why did the Feds call me asking questions about you) Should that be a free pass?
What should be a free pass?
If you break the small laws, whats stoping you from breaking the big laws?
I've lived next to 3 contractors in my life. All three used their 'white vans' to rip off construction sites. Based on that, I expect MSNBC to push for a Federal Ban on White Vans. I'll put in a good word for an exception for you, TAB.
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First and foremost a CCW is looked at by a Law Enforcement agency, a CL or even the background check for a nuc plant is done by the government. Plus a CCW is a card in your wallet that is understood to have been issued after such a check by a dept. A CL doesn't guarantee that ANY background check has been done. It may be done in some areas but not necessarily at a national level.
A secerty clearance isn't tatooed on your forehead and you don't have a card that says what clearance you have, unless you have a badge for a facilty, and they don't have that on it except for maybe a colored band that only employees of that facility would know what it means.
A CCW isn't always a "free pass" and doesn't mean you still won't be arrested or given a ticket. Do all LEOs give "passes" for some things sure, do they also have a duty to do a job and do it safely and fairly DEFINATELY.
depends on the state, in CA. ( assuming your in a county that gives them out) its actualy harder to get a Cl then it is to get a CCW... exact same back ground check, Done by the same people, on the same machine. Back ground checks by law CAN only be done by the CA DOJ.( the LEA must use thier data base and only thier data base) After you pass that all you need s a 8-16 hour class( min and max by law, changes per county... I know it ticks me off as well) Where as to get a CL, you need pass life scan( which btw is also what checks when you work with children), have 4 years exp in your trade/ school degree in construction of some type, and post a bond. Once you have it, you are issued a card, that by law you must keep with you at all times, rather your working or not. So why should not my CID card be just as good as a CCW?
While we are there, what about my ID from the CIF or SJUSD id cards? both of those require the same back ground check.
Now I'm not saying all contractors are angels, there is alot of scum out there, but not all CCW have a halo above thier head. ( more so in CA where is some countys CCW are bought, not issued.)
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::) :'( ::)
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Everyone I know with a CCW that has been pulled over was sent on their way w/o a ticket once the officer saw their CCW permit.
The last time I was pulled over while carrying I handed the LEO my CCW permit along with my DL. The rest of the 25-minute exchange was spent in a conversation about guns, and his admiring the sidearm I was carrying at the time, as well as him showing me the new semi-auto carbine he'd just been issued.
No ticket, btw, just a smile and a wave as I drove away.
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So your ok with cops giving people a pass becuase they have a CCW?
No, I don't believe people should receive a free pass just because they have a CCW permit. That was never mentioned, nor inferred. LEOs let certain minor traffic violations slide all the time, depending upon the circumstances, if you have no priors and treat them with respect rather than disdane. IMO, this is simply a courtesy from the LEO to those of us who are not "part of the problem", so to speak, and saves them a little time in the process. Do I expect to get out of tickets because I have a CCW? No. However, I don't consider it a mark against LEOs when they decide to over look a mild violation when presented with the right attitude and a document showing the person has no major priors.
Swoop
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There are people with CCW that get tickets as well as those that don't. When an officer makes the decision whether to issue a citation or not they make a lot into consideration. The fact that a person has taken the time to get trained and has been checked out to obtain a permit says a lot about the type of person they are. This is just one item that may cause an officer to let a person off with either a verbal or written warning for a minor offense.