A Peace Officer's view of CCW

[Fatman]

Wednesday, July 9, 2008
CCW permits from a law enforcement perspective
As a law enforcement professional I strongly support the right of a citizen to carry a firearm for protection of themselves and others. I believe that this is not only a right but a responsibility that should be taken very seriously. You are ultimately responsible for the safety of yourself and your family.

Don't let anyone tell you that the police are responsible for your safety because that simply is not true. When I started in law enforcement we averaged about 1 officer for every 1200 citizens. Now that number is more like 1 officer for every 1500. Can you ensure the safety of 1500 people? Neither can I. Also remember that of those 1500 people that need protection a significant number of them are criminals who will not cooperate with you and will actively try to harm the others. Try to remember that the original and often forgotten role of the police is to punish those who break the law. Working in a bad part of town this really becomes clear when you go days on end without ever having any contact with a decent, law abiding citizen. But I am getting off topic.

I remember in my patrol car driving days when I would make a traffic stop and make the gut wrenching walk to the drivers window. If you think you are nervous when you get pulled over, think about what its like from the other end. Not only are you worried about what the occupants of the car are doing (reaching for a gun, hiding dope, getting ready to run) but also about the cars coming up behind you that can kill you just as dead as a bullet but, YOU CANNOT LOOK OUT FOR THEM because you can't take your eyes of the occupants of the car you just pulled over.

Imagine the relief when the driver hands you a drivers license and a CCW permit. Those two things tell you a lot about a person. One, I can know for certain who this person is and two, this person has subjected themselves to a criminal background check and the State has said yes, we trust you with a concealed weapon. This is probably not a bad guy here.

I know for me personally these folks were usually handed back their drivers license and CCW permit, thanked for taking responsibility for their own safety and sent on their way. I know for me a traffic stop was never about just writting a ticket, but about finding the bad folks so I could help them get into jail. A traffic violation is a little thing that helps you find the big things.

In the years I have been in law enforcement I have had only one bad encounter with a CCW holder. But he was also a private investigator.......and he was drunk. But that story is best left for some other time.

Update 07/14/08: I see from the comments that I have caused some controversy over my assertion that the original role of the police is to punish those that break the law. I fear that I have misspoke. That thought would be better expressed "bring to punishment" those that break the law. Please see the insightful commentary from JPG in the comments. I agree that punishment of offenders is reserved for the judiciary although I do feel that it is so far removed from the commission of the offense that the offender may not even associate the two. Often the only "perceived" punishment that offenders recognize is the inconvenience of getting caught, going to jail, getting interrogated by a detective or getting a warrant issued for them. I should have been more careful in my wording.

http://cowtowncop.blogspot.com/2008/07/ccw-permits-from-law-enforcement.html

Need more like this gent to speak up! it's the administrators in the big city PDs that tend to be against CCW. They have to answer to the mayors and city councils. My neighbor is retired NYPD and he flat-out said he and the majority of the patrol officers were never worried about guns in the hands (or pockets) of the law abiding public.

[TAB]

MY exp with LEOs all over the US is that its split, 25% are against it, 25% are for it, 25% are for it for just them and the other 25% have not made up thier minds.

[ericire12]

Everyone I know with a CCW that has been pulled over was sent on their way w/o a ticket once the officer saw their CCW permit.

[TAB]

Everyone I know with a CCW that has been pulled over was sent on their way w/o a ticket once the officer saw their CCW permit.

which just shows how bad LEOs have become.

[SwoopSJ]

which just shows how bad LEOs have become.

Although I normally don't jump in to disagree with someone, your ideology makes no sense whatsoever, Tab.  As stated by the LEO at the beginning of the thread, traffic stops are frequently used as a tool to uncover larger crimes.  The majority of CCW holders, including myself, are law abiding citizens and have, as he mentioned, already passed the required criminal background checks.  That being said, if you are a LEO and pull someone over for a minor traffic violation (mild speeding for instance) and they provide documentation that says, according to state and federal agencies, that they are not dangerous criminals, why would you not give them a break?  My experiences with LEOs have all been positive anyway, but I have always treated them like I would want to be treated if our rolls were reversed.  Unless the traffic violation is a major one, their time is much better served by persuing "real" criminals, rather than writing me a ticket for a minor violation.  IMO, the CCW just gives them instant notification that the person in question, more than likely, has no warrants and isn't committing any major crimes, thus it is a sign the LEO is using sound judgement and not a sign of "... how bad LEOs have become."

Swoop

[Sponsor]

[Grizzle_Bear]

When I went to turn in my paperwork and get fingerprinted for my CCW permit, there were two of us getting processed.  We had a chance to talk a bit with the officer taking the prints.  He said that when the CCW law was passed here in Kansas, he originally didn't think it was a good idea. 

But after meeting several hundred applicants, he had changed his mind.  He saw that these were the people that SHOULD be carrying guns.

Now, I wouldn't expect to use my CCW license to skate a traffic ticket.  But I do think that more and more cops are realizing that a CCW is prima facie evidence that the bearer is a Good Citizen.

Grizzle Bear

[Fatman]

When I went to turn in my paperwork and get fingerprinted for my CCW permit, there were two of us getting processed.  We had a chance to talk a bit with the officer taking the prints.  He said that when the CCW law was passed here in Kansas, he originally didn't think it was a good idea. 

But after meeting several hundred applicants, he had changed his mind.  He saw that these were the people that SHOULD be carrying guns.

Now, I wouldn't expect to use my CCW license to skate a traffic ticket.  But I do think that more and more cops are realizing that a CCW is prima facie evidence that the bearer is a Good Citizen.

Grizzle Bear

Similar experience here. The sheriff's deputy assigned the ccw job was initially very cold to me and voiced his 'concerns' about civvies carrying. When I went back to renew last year, his tune had changed, and the whole court house police staff was much friendlier.  Not one incident of a ccw holder committing a crime involving the weapon in over ten years. And despite the Brady Bunch's claim, incidents of any crime were much lower in the ccw crowd than the population at large.

[ericire12]

Although I normally don't jump in to disagree with someone, your ideology makes no sense whatsoever, Tab.  As stated by the LEO at the beginning of the thread, traffic stops are frequently used as a tool to uncover larger crimes.  The majority of CCW holders, including myself, are law abiding citizens and have, as he mentioned, already passed the required criminal background checks.  That being said, if you are a LEO and pull someone over for a minor traffic violation (mild speeding for instance) and they provide documentation that says, according to state and federal agencies, that they are not dangerous criminals, why would you not give them a break?  My experiences with LEOs have all been positive anyway, but I have always treated them like I would want to be treated if our rolls were reversed.  Unless the traffic violation is a major one, their time is much better served by persuing "real" criminals, rather than writing me a ticket for a minor violation.  IMO, the CCW just gives them instant notification that the person in question, more than likely, has no warrants and isn't committing any major crimes, thus it is a sign the LEO is using sound judgement and not a sign of "... how bad LEOs have become."

Swoop

Bullseye!

I forgot to add, that none of the people I was referring to were pulled over by Highway Patrol.

[shooter32]

Similar experience here. The sheriff's deputy assigned the ccw job was initially very cold to me and voiced his 'concerns' about civvies carrying. When I went back to renew last year, his tune had changed, and the whole court house police staff was much friendlier.  Not one incident of a ccw holder committing a crime involving the weapon in over ten years. And despite the Brady Bunch's claim, incidents of any crime were much lower in the ccw crowd than the population at large.

The wife and I went to a Citizens Police Academy. I had a chance to talk to alot of the officers about ccw and everyone of them said they were for citizens having ccw. And have never had a problem with ccw citizens.

[Big Frank]

I read a statistic, I think it was a few years ago, that police officers are 11 times more likely to shoot the wrong person than the rest of us are. Maybe it was 13 times more. Anyway, I guess we should worry about the police carrying guns but they don't need to worry about us.