The Down Range Forum
Flying Dragon Productions ( Michael Bane ) => The Best Defense on My Outdoor TV => Topic started by: jonyrotten on January 07, 2009, 07:49:56 PM
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anyone know about the midway commercial showing a .38 S&W and a 1000 point scale for rating your effectiveness in a self defense situation? it aired about 10 mins into the best defense show at 7:30 EST tonight jan. 7. i'd be interested in this 1000 point scale.
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Re-racked the tape. On Directv it is 20 minutes into the show. The commercial didn't reference anything. I did a google search for TTFH and got nothing. I suppose it is a metric that someone dreamed up and Potterfield was pushing it. It would be nice to see something deeper on it though.
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It's a metric Midway USA worked up...I have dinner with Larry Potterfield next Wednesday and I'll ask him about it.
Small piece of trivia...my first carry gun (I still have it) was a 1930's vintage S&W Regulation Police revolver in .38 S&W. My carry load at the time was soft lead wadcutters seated upside-down, with the big ashtray "hollowpoint" pointed up, over a HUGE scoop of Bullseye powder. Let's see...what's the euphemism for shooting them? Oh yeah, "brisk" recoil! Also, I swear the soft lead wads would start leading up the barrel when you loaded the things. I was never able to get all the lead out of the barrel...
Michael B
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It's a metric Midway USA worked up...I have dinner with Larry Potterfield next Wednesday and I'll ask him about it.
Small piece of trivia...my first carry gun (I still have it) was a 1930's vintage S&W Regulation Police revolver in .38 S&W. My carry load at the time was soft lead wadcutters seated upside-down, with the big ashtray "hollowpoint" pointed up, over a HUGE scoop of Bullseye powder. Let's see...what's the euphemism for shooting them? Oh yeah, "brisk" recoil! Also, I swear the soft lead wads would start leading up the barrel when you loaded the things. I was never able to get all the lead out of the barrel...
Michael B
thanks mike, i'll be watching for your reply. i've got a '20s era S&W in .38 sp that my dad left to me when he passed. nice old revolver.
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Great!
I too was going to ask the question about there scale, and any follow on info.
Looking forward to more info.
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it was on again tonight, halfway through best defense, this time with a browning high power
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I was pleased to find The Best Defence on the telly; all kinds of useful bits there are! I'm fascinated with the chap demonstrating the concealed carry pistol; I've seen him demonstrate a S&W Model 10 and the Browning Hi Power (both of which I'm fortunate to have).
I would very much like to see this chart abalyzing the various ammunition for knock down potential. I noticed last night that the 9mm Luger scored ahead of 45 ACP for knockdown, which I found a mite surprising. ??? My 1911a1 (guess I'm a classicist) has always been my "go-to" weapon for knockdown based on anecdotal evidence that 45 ACP was the gold standard. An old argument I realize, highly subjective and largely arbitrary, but if there is a link to that chart, I'm a bloke who enjoys examining data & poring over facts & figures to make educated, informed decisions.
What say you?
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I was pleased to find The Best Defence on the telly; all kinds of useful bits there are! I'm fascinated with the chap demonstrating the concealed carry pistol; I've seen him demonstrate a S&W Model 10 and the Browning Hi Power (both of which I'm fortunate to have).
I would very much like to see this chart abalyzing the various ammunition for knock down potential. I noticed last night that the 9mm Luger scored ahead of 45 ACP for knockdown, which I found a mite surprising. ??? My 1911a1 (guess I'm a classicist) has always been my "go-to" weapon for knockdown based on anecdotal evidence that 45 ACP was the gold standard. An old argument I realize, highly subjective and largely arbitrary, but if there is a link to that chart, I'm a bloke who enjoys examining data & poring over facts & figures to make educated, informed decisions.
What say you?
First off, I say welcome to the forum. Jolly good to have you aboard. ;D
Second, I basically agree with your sentiment on the 45 ACP and also scratched my head a little on the chart information. A lot of that information on "knockdown power" is probably based on data compiled over the years by people like Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall (some links are posted below to further reading).
Martin Fackler also studied ballistics and wound data to support theories on what was/is the best defensive load for one-shot stops. He was key in the development and use of ballistic gelatin.
One thing to remember is that data such as stopping power data is a numbers 'game' that should be taken with a 'grain of salt' and is not all conclusive. Much of the information and data was compiled when different calibers were more commonly carried and USED for defense than what is popular today.
For example, not that long ago (on the grand scale of things) the .357 magnum was at the top of the list for one-shot stops. This was after a long period of time when many police agencies still carried it as a duty load. It takes a long time to overthrow long term data. Only about twenty-five to thirty years ago did law enforcement departments overwhelmingly switch over to semi-autos using 9mm, and later on .40 and .45 ACP (or GAP). Up until then, most cops used the .38 or .357 so the majority of the data would come from that arena.
Simply put, one of the reasons that the 9mm could be at the top of the list is simply that there are more of them out there, and therefore more of them are used in the shootings from where the data was gathered.
http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/oss.htm
http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/45acp.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fackler
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It is important to note the the "Midway Segment" which is aired during The Best Defense is not actually part of the content developed by Mr. Janich, Mr. Bane or myself. It is a stand alone piece that does not necessarily reflect our opinions, research or concepts.
-RJP
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It is important to note the the "Midway Segment" which is aired during The Best Defense is not actually part of the content developed by Mr. Janich, Mr. Bane or myself. It is a stand alone piece that does not necessarily reflect our opinions, research or concepts.
-RJP
rob, i understand that, i just would like to get some info on it. point is, i don't know what it is from a 30 sec commercial, i'd like to understand it better so i can access it.
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Rob, My 1911 thanks you for that disclaimer ;D (though it was understood before hand)
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PegLeg45, I was tickled when I saw 'South Georgia'... for a tick I thought it was the South Georgia of the Arctic Ocean fame. I appreciate the links, some dandy information there. I'm hopeful someone will be able to direct me at a link to the Midway chart as I'd like to peek at the other rounds represented.
As for 357 Magnum, I have a similar understanding as yourself, but my knowledge diverges in the switch being a combination of factors from monetary to accomodating smaller, weaker officers for whom 9mm was a more civil round. Still, as my mates used to tell me, the best ammunition in the world is what you have ready to shoot right now! :D
Rob, as it appears you perhaps monitor things- or are in some way aware of this thread- please let me take the opportunity to gush about how appreciative I am of your promgramme. As a humble medic, firefighter & security officer of modest means, the information provided by yourself & your mates adds valuable additional facets to my skills & knowledge. Bravo Zulu lads!
Cheers!
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It is important to note the the "Midway Segment" which is aired during The Best Defense is not actually part of the content developed by Mr. Janich, Mr. Bane or myself. It is a stand alone piece that does not necessarily reflect our opinions, research or concepts.
-RJP
I like Larry better when he's showing us how to repair something.
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rob, i understand that, i just would like to get some info on it. point is, i don't know what it is from a 30 sec commercial, i'd like to understand it better so i can access it.
go to MidwayUSA.com and check out their information there. They also have a button to contact them with questions.
By the way, welcome to the nut house!
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Just called Midway. They are working on getting info out on that scale of defensive rounds. They will post it on their site or distribute some other way in a couple of weeks.
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Just called Midway. They are working on getting info out on that scale of defensive rounds. They will post it on their site or distribute some other way in a couple of weeks.
excellent! i sent an email but thumbs up for cutting thru the ** and calling.
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Thanks, Pemi.... Very Much!
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I knew that you most of you probably figured the deal with the Midway segments, but I have gotten some questions out of the forum and thought it should be a matter of Record.
The TBD Forum is for all things related to the show, including our sponsors, Of Course! Without them, there wouldn't be a show to discuss at all!
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I'm glad that you guys are getting the info about the scale locked down. One thing that we have been trying to do is keep the Products that we use on the show linked for your reference, maybe we need to start trying to do that for the items that Sponsors are featuring in their ads too. (Tom, do you need a link to a Browning Hi-Power site?)
****
-RJP
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I like Larry better when he's showing us how to repair something.
Me too! I know he is a gun lover at all levels, but he does a much better job on his gunsmithing and instructional clips than evaluations.
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(Tom, do you need a link to a Browning Hi-Power site?)
Thank's but no I'm good, already got a link to the Ruger GP 100 page though. ;D
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do you need a link to a Browning Hi-Power site?
i do, i do!!!
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Have at it:
http://hipowertalk.com/forum/ (http://hipowertalk.com/forum/)
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Just called Midway. They are working on getting info out on that scale of defensive rounds. They will post it on their site or distribute some other way in a couple of weeks.
Thanks!
I've seen all the segments. The chart would be fun to look at, if nothing else.
By the way:
Michael Bane, Michael Janich, Rob Pincus: GREAT SHOW!
My girlfriend watched the last one and liked it. Getting her started shooting the 31st. :o
-Mike
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go to MidwayUSA.com and check out their information there. They also have a button to contact them with questions.
By the way, welcome to the nut house!
Just called Midway. They are working on getting info out on that scale of defensive rounds. They will post it on their site or distribute some other way in a couple of weeks.
I looked at the website before posting in my first post and found nothing there. As 1776 posted, they are working on getting it out.
I bet they have had a ton of hits on the site from people like us looking for info on the chart. Might be good for business.
8)
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Might be good for business. 8)
From the way their business has grown over 30+ years, they way they do business, and the other things they do it is obvious that Larry is smart and good at what he does! Hopefully this rating system makes sense to the rest of us once we see it.
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From the way their business has grown over 30+ years, they way they do business, and the other things they do it is obvious that Larry is smart and good at what he does! Hopefully this rating system makes sense to the rest of us once we see it.
Yes, he is one heck of a business man. I would probably have done even more business with Midway over the years than I have, but it seems like every time I need something Brownells has a better price on what I need at the time. I always try to spend with the "good guys".
8)
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Midway is a primary sponsor of The Best Defense and we are very happy to have their support. As part of their advertising arrangement with Outdoor Channel, they arranged to include the gun selection segment during the air time for the show. As Rob explained, he, Mike Bane, and I had no part in the content of that segment, so you are correct in directing questions about it to the folks at Midway.
My only comment is that I hate the term "knockdown power." If Newton were alive today, I'm sure he'd have something to say about it as well...
Stay safe,
Mike
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Depends on whether he was crazy or not at the time, He still might have something to say, it just wouldn't make sense.
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It's a metric Midway USA worked up...I have dinner with Larry Potterfield next Wednesday and I'll ask him about it.
Small piece of trivia...my first carry gun (I still have it) was a 1930's vintage S&W Regulation Police revolver in .38 S&W. My carry load at the time was soft lead wadcutters seated upside-down, with the big ashtray "hollowpoint" pointed up, over a HUGE scoop of Bullseye powder. Let's see...what's the euphemism for shooting them? Oh yeah, "brisk" recoil! Also, I swear the soft lead wads would start leading up the barrel when you loaded the things. I was never able to get all the lead out of the barrel...
Michael B
Any information ever come out of that Mike? Inquiring minds want to know.
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The upside down HBWC was a favorite in many places way back. Skeeter and others wrote about it. I used the soft factory (Hornady) swaged bullets, and found that often they would turn 90 degrees in 25 yards, or veer off enough to flatten at an angle. In a fair amount of testing, I never once got any kind of expansion that would compare to what we have come to expect from the superb factory JHP loadings available over the counter today. I was using 2" j frames for testing, as that seemed to be the intended instrument for this type of load. The first time I was able to shoot some early Supervels, I quit the HBWC's.
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First off; I really enjoy "The Best Defense". It is far better than the self defense program which used to be on The Outdoor Channel. It is great to see practical self defense information which can be applied to every day life. And wonderful to see practical SD/awareness techniques for the ladies.
As for the Midway testing bit...I LOVE IT! Sure, I'm also trying to figure out that chart...but I enjoy that they are looking at normal stuff, not just the latest greatest poly-wonder. When I saw the old Beretta 950B .25acp on that segment, I was hooked.
So I have been pausing the chart as it quickly comes up the screen, looking at some of the relative positions of cartridges. The chart is lacking important information and seems to have some cartridges mixed around. I'd love to see the reasoning and figures behind it.
But it is an entertaining 30-seconds and one of my favorite segments/commercials when watching The Best Defense".
Hopefully, Midway will put the chart on their website and give us some standards so we can emulate the tests on other guns.
Thanks for the great new show.
Jack
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So much of the firearm industry's publications, advertisements, and lobby groups seem to emphasize the interests of the hunting and trap shooting communities at the expense of all else. I appreciate Midway acknowledging the CCW community by demonstrating the merits of various carry platforms in their ads, even if on a subjective metric system that they them selves devised. Also I think it says volumes about Larry's commitment to meeting the needs of the armed citizen by doing the testing on the commercials him self. I spend a fair share of coin with Midway and will continue to do so in no small part to the ad campaign attached to Best Defense. Thanks for recognizing our important segment of the consumer market in your commercials.
Moga
Atlanta, GA
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Yes this Midway stuff is like decrypting the Japanese codes....
I tivo'd the commercial and slowed it down. There are three components to the metric. The final score is a cumulative of each of the component scores.
The first factor is Time To First Hit (it is from a holstered position to target hit) It is measured in tenths of a second. I looks like each tenth more in time subtracts around 26 or 27 points. But I could only read 3 data points clearly. Likely it's a linear scale.
1.5 = 500
1.6 = 473
1.7 = 447
The second factor Accuracy (defined as the number of hits on target in 3 seconds) Definitely a linear scale.
1 = 20
2 = 40
3 = 60
4 = 80
5 = 100
The third and final component is Knockdown Factor. This was a long chart. I picked up 4 data points.
38 special 125gr JHP = 142
32 ACP 71gr FMJ = 96
22LR 36gr HP = 95
32ACP 60gr Silvertip = 94
Even though it has a silvertip in there, I just used Federal data on those rounds. Looks like his numbers are consistently about 40 pts higher than IPSC power factor.
So it doesn't look like any rocket science here. Since the TTFH and Accuracy numbers are straight linear scales just plug in whatever you get at the range. For the Knockdown factor just plug in any scale you feel comfortable with. The major factor in the calculation by at least 4x is the TTFH. So any power factor that generates numbers between 90 and 200 for common rounds, should keep you pretty much in line with the Midway calculations.
Good luck...
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Good break down, thank you for posting this.
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I'm a fan of Midway for their customer service and support of the shooting sports. But I think the TTFH and weapon evaluations do viewers a disservice.
TTFH, in particular, has MUCH more to do with the individual shooter than the gun, but this isn't presented as such. As anyone who shoots USPSA or IDPA knows, TTFH can vary substantially among shooters shooting very similar guns, and even from stage to stage for the same shooter. Training, physical fitness, holster, hand size, concealment method, ammo, and other situational variables will impact TTFH as much, if not more than the choice of gun.
I'd rather see more general conversation on the basic principles of gun selection than subjective scales presented as objective ratings.
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I'm a fan of Midway for their customer service and support of the shooting sports. But I think the TTFH and weapon evaluations do viewers a disservice.
TTFH, in particular, has MUCH more to do with the individual shooter than the gun, but this isn't presented as such. As anyone who shoots USPSA or IDPA knows, TTFH can vary substantially among shooters shooting very similar guns, and even from stage to stage for the same shooter. Training, physical fitness, holster, hand size, concealment method, ammo, and other situational variables will impact TTFH as much, if not more than the choice of gun.
I'd rather see more general conversation on the basic principles of gun selection than subjective scales presented as objective ratings.
This is getting interesting since Rebel posted ;D
bbbean, I agree with what you say about "Time to First Hit" but I wonder why you included ammo in your list of variables. Were you thinking about Lock time ? I would not think that that would make a MEASURABLE difference.
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I truly wish that every firearms company exeuctive had Larry Potterfield's commitment and, ahem, balls! He always puts his money where his mouth, and his heart, is. He and I talk a lot, and sometimes we argue on specific points (perhaps because we're both opinionated Type A personalities...hmmmmmm), but we remain on the same basic pages.
I approved in advance and thoroughly support his vignettes on TBD and my other shows because I believe they're a value-add to the programming...if you don't believe me, spend some time at the Midway USA booth at the upcoming NRA Show in Phoenix!
I'm gonna urge him to do a video on his 1000 point scale, and we'll put it on DRTV...
Michael B
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That would be great MB.
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This is getting interesting since Rebel posted ;D
bbbean, I agree with what you say about "Time to First Hit" but I wonder why you included ammo in your list of variables. Were you thinking about Lock time ? I would not think that that would make a MEASURABLE difference.
Sorry - I should have made it clear that I was thinking of his "accuracy" rating when I mentioned ammo. Obviously if you're loading ++PP++PP++PP++ ammo, your splits are going to be a bit wider than a guy loading to spec or a guy loading a little lighter.
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Sorry - I should have made it clear that I was thinking of his "accuracy" rating when I mentioned ammo. Obviously if you're loading ++PP++PP++PP++ ammo, your splits are going to be a bit wider than a guy loading to spec or a guy loading a little lighter.
Oh, I see what you mean. Also an average size person using factory ammo will (Theoretically) get off more accurate shots in 3 seconds with a .38 than with a .44 mag.
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That would be great MB.
+100
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That would be great MB.
+1....I think most folks aren't per say 'against' this scale system and Mr. Potterfield's ideas......they just don't have enough info to process it yet.
A good video explanation of its basis and formulations would be helpful.
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Guys, You have to think critically about any information presented to you... mine, Potterfield's, your mom's... whatever....
How much does it matter how fast the guy who owns midway can pick up a gun from a table and hit a pie plate?
Probably not enough to to justify the time it took me to type the question. I don't know how much more valuable the pieces are if they are "explained" more.... they are what they are, an opinion and a demonstration of his abilities.
That said, his comparisons of HIS performance in a non-defensive, sport shooting situation does provide some objective data and a basis for people to make decisions about which types of firearms they should go out and train with, purchase or consider for self-defense.
Take it for what it's worth.
-RJP
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While the scores that Mr. Potterfield got with various pistols may not be relevant, Knowing the CRITERIA that he used to compile those scores could be helpful to someone who otherwise has no particular caliber preference.
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While the scores that Mr. Potterfield got with various pistols may not be relevant, Knowing the CRITERIA that he used to compile those scores could be helpful to someone who otherwise has no particular caliber preference.
I agree Tom well stated.
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Good point Rob. Critical thinking, or the lack there of, has never been a problem of mine, and I have thought about the idea of "so what if you can pick up and fire and get back on target and group ..." Then I started thinking about the fact that he is informing us on a different gun each week, he is evaluating every gun on the same scale, and he is using the same criteria (his own ability to use the gun) for every gun.
Just one more bit of information to use when visiting the gun shop or to file away in the great vast vacuum I call ... whatever that space between my ears is.
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New to forum. Just a few comments. Love the show. I actually like Larry Potterfield's segment. When I first started watching the show I thought it was an actual segment. I guess it's kinda is but since they are a sponsor it's considered a commercial. I look forward to the segment each week. What gun will be on... what will it score... how it compare with others? Good TV. Efficient little piece that gets to the point. May lead to some debate and over analysis by some but the consistent variable is him and there doesn't appear to be much bias to his conclusion.
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I understand and know that the midway segment on affectiveness of concealed carry firearms is not associated with the program. That said, I do find it interesting, that Mr. Potterfield uses' a different gun each time. This gives us who don't have access to or money to buy a basis for research of these firearms as a comparison. I think it is a positive thing.
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I understand and know that the midway segment on affectiveness of concealed carry firearms is not associated with the program. That said, I do find it interesting, that Mr. Potterfield uses' a different gun each time. This gives us who don't have access to or money to buy a basis for research of these firearms as a comparison. I think it is a positive thing.
That's a good point. I don't know if you listen to Michael Bane's weekly podcast, but he has put a lot of information out there about weapons and their performance over the last couple of years...something you've just got to listen to if you haven't already.
While the scores that Mr. Potterfield got with various pistols may not be relevant, Knowing the CRITERIA that he used to compile those scores could be helpful to someone who otherwise has no particular caliber preference.
Do you think maybe he will expand on this next season...I hope so. I'm thinking teaser here...the man is definitely smart and has got to be thinking ahead. I met him at the Tulsa Wannamacher's gun show a couple of years ago (while waiting to get on that NRA old gun segment) and he was most gracious and insightful. I'd have to bet that he is going to expand....I would not be surprised if he didn't think some of this through way beforehand...look at who we are talking about....but then that's my 2 pennies. :)
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Is there a location we can study the results of a variety of guns tested against this point scale system? I'm still shopping for my concealed carry gun ;)
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Guys, You have to think critically about any information presented to you... mine, Potterfield's, your mom's... whatever....
How much does it matter how fast the guy who owns midway can pick up a gun from a table and hit a pie plate?
Probably not enough to to justify the time it took me to type the question. I don't know how much more valuable the pieces are if they are "explained" more.... they are what they are, an opinion and a demonstration of his abilities.
That said, his comparisons of HIS performance in a non-defensive, sport shooting situation does provide some objective data and a basis for people to make decisions about which types of firearms they should go out and train with, purchase or consider for self-defense.
Take it for what it's worth.
-RJP
I understand your view but I think it is just interesting to see his POV just like others in the field and what other firearms he has reviewed.
On that note has any one heard or have found anymore info?
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I've seen a number of those Midway bits. One thing is it is based on how fast Larry can get off first shot, and how fast Larry can effect follow-up shots. Pretty subjective. I'm sure he's an accomplished shooter, but even attempt-to-attempt variation would be significant on this scale. Lastly, there is no metric for concealability. So full size guns with heavy cartridges come out well. There MUST be a metric for concealability in my mind. The peashooter in your pocket is better than the full size _____ at home because you don't want to drag it along...
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The metric for concealability is that he has it when he shoots his test. If you read some of the earlier posts you will find a break down of the metrics he uses , and frankly his numbers don't apply to any one but him, most of the criteria are very subjective and will vary from person to person based on experience, training and personal comfort. For them to have any value you would have to do the same tests yourself.
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The metric for concealability is that he has it when he shoots his test. If you read some of the earlier posts you will find a break down of the metrics he uses , and frankly his numbers don't apply to any one but him, most of the criteria are very subjective and will vary from person to person based on experience, training and personal comfort. For them to have any value you would have to do the same tests yourself.
Fortunately, we all know that no one would ever take something like that from a commercial and then repeat it at the gun shop or range as if it were the gospel according to John Browning.
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Fortunately, we all know that no one would ever take something like that from a commercial and then repeat it at the gun shop or range as if it were the gospel according to John Browning.
RIIIGHT
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http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/staticpages/charts/CCH_rating_chart.htm
There is the rating chart
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I'd say thanks, but I'm too depressed looking at the number of Glock's on the list :-\
I feel the need to drop Mr. Potterfield a note about picking up a good old 1911.
By the way, drop over to the new member into thread at the cafe!
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eeewwww glock ewwwww ;D
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http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/staticpages/charts/CCH_rating_chart.htm
There is the rating chart
Welcome aboard.
I see it took a new member to find the rating system for us. Hmmmmm maybe we should give him a prize.
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Welcome aboard.
I see it took a new member to find the rating system for us. Hmmmmm maybe we should give him a prize.
Nah, the amount of cash this crowd drops at MidwayUSA we would have stumbled across it sooner or later. After all, all his finding it shows is that he isn't spending enough over there.
Besides, it shows too much praise for tupperware to be rewarded ;)
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I'd say thanks, but I'm too depressed looking at the number of Glock's on the list
I feel the need to drop Mr. Potterfield a note about picking up a good old 1911.
By the way, drop over to the new member into thread at the cafe!
And Midway has not put the Glock 21SF on there yet, M58. ;) Just kidding.
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I like the CCW segment...it provides a good initial primer for evaluating guns for a beginner...but he does need to add an item or two (weight, reliability, ease of maintenance).....
...I also think he should evaluate knockdown power by the page number where the bullet stops when it's fired into a Midway USA catalog.... ;D
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I like the CCW segment...it provides a good initial primer for evaluating guns for a beginner...but he does need to add an item or two (weight, reliability, ease of maintenance).....
...I also think he should evaluate knockdown power by the page number where the bullet stops when it's fired into a Midway USA catalog.... ;D
I think phone books would be more appropriate, after all, we're only talking about PISTOLS. ;D
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I like the CCW segment...it provides a good initial primer for evaluating guns for a beginner...but he does need to add an item or two (weight, reliability, ease of maintenance).....
...I also think he should evaluate knockdown power by the page number where the bullet stops when it's fired into a Midway USA catalog.... ;D
When I tested my NAA22LR to check for penetration and expansion I did use a Midway catalog. I was impressed enough to decide it was worth adding it to my concealed carry permit. It put lead into the 500's and ripped pages into the 700's.
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New to the site. Midway has video of this on their page. I took time, paused the video and copied it for my use. Have it in Word format if anyone is interested.
Stay safe
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Welcome Sundance.
Bear in mind, as we have been discussing here, that scale has no value unless you run the tests for yourself. The results are totally dependent on a persons ability and comfort levels with things like recoil. Also, before you even consider the 1,000 point scale, you can eliminate all pistols that are not comfortable in your hand.
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New to the site. Midway has video of this on their page. I took time, paused the video and copied it for my use. Have it in Word format if anyone is interested.
Stay safe
Sundance, welcome to the nut house site. I think you'll like it here. If not say so and say why, we love a good discussion. That's why we seem to have anywhere from 2 to 42 discussions per thread (YMMV).
Stop by the new member's forum and introduce yourself a bit.
BTW, I'm sure you'll get takers on the write-up. Thanks.
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I like the CCW segment...it provides a good initial primer for evaluating guns for a beginner...but he does need to add an item or two (weight, reliability, ease of maintenance).....
...I also think he should evaluate knockdown power by the page number where the bullet stops when it's fired into a Midway USA catalog.... ;D
My 60 gr .22LR's came this afternoon so I did a penetration test using my calibrated ballistic cellulose (Midway Catalog) and I found the lead at page 775. i don't think that's too bad with a 1.125" barrel.
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My biggest objection to using the Midway Catalog is that then you can't browse through it so well, with 411 information who needs phone books ?
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My biggest objection to using the Midway Catalog is that then you can't browse through it so well, with 411 information who needs phone books ?
I had an extra catalog...............
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I had an extra catalog...............
That's alright then ;D
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You didn't think I would be that foolish? No, don't answer that.
That's alright then ;D
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http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/staticpages/charts/CCH_rating_chart.htm
Found this information
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I like the CCW segment...it provides a good initial primer for evaluating guns for a beginner...but he does need to add an item or two (weight, reliability, ease of maintenance).....
Seeker,
You have a good point, but these items are more subjective than even the other items he rates. Mr. Potterfield's time to first shot, and number of shots on target are only consistent because he is the one doing it the same way for each gun. As said in many commercials, "Your actual results may vary."
The items you mention are have more variability than what he is testing:
Weight - Just like size in a carry situation is going to be more a matter of size of the person. I joke because I carry a a full sized 1911 and have no problems. I will actually put a 5" 1911 on my hip and a j-frame in my pocket, and go unnoticed. However, there are people out there that can't hide a KelTech or Ruger .380 under a parka without it showing or weighting them off balance;
Reliability - At one point I heard him explain in an interview that it is a given that any of the items he rates is going to be reliable and durable. He leaves these rankings to the testers that go into that;
Maintenance - This is a personal practice item. Once you decide to carry and use a gun it is up to you to maintain it. Once you learn how to do something it is easy. I can tear down, clean and lube, and reassemble my 1911's so fast it will make your head spin, but I an hardly get the slide off my M&P and XD, because I don't do it that often. Others can do the "tupperware" blindfolded, but they don't know how to start on a 1911.
All three are good points, but that is where you as a gun owner and user need to evaluate your own preferences.
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Seeker,
You have a good point, but these items are more subjective than even the other items he rates. Mr. Potterfield's time to first shot, and number of shots on target are only consistent because he is the one doing it the same way for each gun. As said in many commercials, "Your actual results may vary."
The items you mention are have more variability than what he is testing:
Weight - Just like size in a carry situation is going to be more a matter of size of the person. I joke because I carry a a full sized 1911 and have no problems. I will actually put a 5" 1911 on my hip and a j-frame in my pocket, and go unnoticed. However, there are people out there that can't hide a KelTech or Ruger .380 under a parka without it showing or weighting them off balance;
Reliability - At one point I heard him explain in an interview that it is a given that any of the items he rates is going to be reliable and durable. He leaves these rankings to the testers that go into that;
Maintenance - This is a personal practice item. Once you decide to carry and use a gun it is up to you to maintain it. Once you learn how to do something it is easy. I can tear down, clean and lube, and reassemble my 1911's so fast it will make your head spin, but I an hardly get the slide off my M&P and XD, because I don't do it that often. Others can do the "tupperware" blindfolded, but they don't know how to start on a 1911.
All three are good points, but that is where you as a gun owner and user need to evaluate your own preferences.
I would also add concealabilty to the list (some of the full size guns score very high, but are not very practical for concealed carry). I would also like to see "time to first shot" be done from some level of concealment (cover garment) or change the subject from concealed carry gun to defensive gun.
I also believe that the point scale for "time to first hit" is a little iffy and probably should be reevaluated (1.5 seconds spread equals a diff of 400 points?).
I also think points value should be increased for the area of follow up shots. Getting 5 shots on the bad guy is only gonna get you 100 points? Hell, if you can get a single shot .45 on target in 2 seconds you will get a score of 867....... That would take the competition, but there are many a gun out there that I would rather have as a CCW then a single shot .45 ::)
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Concealability is what I was getting at along with weight. Body size has a lot to do with concealability. When it comes to drawing from concealment, or drawing in general, I am better off with IWB or a high mounted belt holster and a larger gun. Small guns and anything inside a pocket is best compared to a monkey trying to get a coconut out of a knothole.
Did anyone see MJ last night with his IWB? I think he needs to double his waist measurement when he is carrying IWB! Put a jacket over that, and there will still be a lump. I wear a colored t-shirt untucked and my Gov. model 1911 IWB, and no one notices.
Call me full figured if you want, but I will also be fully armed ;D
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Seeker,
You have a good point, but these items are more subjective than even the other items he rates.
I'd disagree with that.....there are some objective numbers to each of these...
WEIGHT: Weight is a significant factor in CCW, esp. for a beginner who hasn't discovered the right belt/holster combo or is using pocket carry. Even MB has remarked on how the "professionals" leave the 38+oz. 1911 at home and carry the Airweight snubbies. And weight doesn't necessarily equal size....I have a small 9mm (Firestar M43) that weighs as much as a full-sized Beretta 92. Conversely, more weight also makes most guns easier to shoot. A 30oz. .40S&W is much easier to shoot than a 20oz. .40S&W.
RELIABILITY: Easy...how many stoppages per 50-100rds? But I'm glad to hear that Mr. Potterfield is screening that before any other testing.
MAINTENANCE: How easy is the firearm to clean? To disassemble (if needed)? To adjust the sights (if necessary)? Most importantly, how easy is it to teach a newcommer to do these things? I'd rank the Glock, XD, and Beretta 92 higher than a 1911 or BHP in this regard....but I'd rank DA revolvers even higher (no regular disassembly required).
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seeker,
I am going to leave this debate, because right, wrong or otherwise, we are 180 degrees apart on these issues and you are bringing in more areas that I disagree with (sights - my carry guns are non adjustable, because I am not going to rely on little tiny screws in a daily carry situation).
Look forward to butting heads in the future.
Mike
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Me too. Thanks, Mike!
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Anyone else notice that Potterfield has now really focused in on guns specifically designed for concealed carry during this season's best defense survival? Looks like he got the message (They also have been giving him grief on other forums about it too). ;D