The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: fullautovalmet76 on January 14, 2009, 09:59:01 PM
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Rob,
I listened to one of your podcasts and you pointed out a fallacy in IDPA shooting as it relates to being adequately prepared to deal with a real-world threat. I did not take your comments to be a wholesale criticism of the sport, but I definitely believe you see something that is lacking in their approach to training.
Would you explain what you perceive are fundamental weaknesses of IDPA and USPSA as it relates to personal defense with a firearm?
Thanks!
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Full auto, the answer is simple, they don't have anything to do with training for defending yourself with a firearm.
First, IDPA is supposed to be about Defensive Pistol right? How many times have you charged head long into a situation involving gun play? How many schools have you been into that said it was a good idea? I am guessing(really hoping with all of my heart) that the answer is none. Real defensive firearms situations have not much in common, but what they do have in common is critical at it's basic level and super important to understand. 1, you have no control over what the other guy does. 2. you generally have no advanced warning or any idea that it is happening. 3. once you do know what's happening your body goes through some hormonal changes that are hardwired into your system as a human and you have no control over them. 4. You can not respond to a threat until you know that it is there. 4 and most importantly with regard to your question, your decisions decide whether you come home or not.
The shooting sports are great fun, challenging, usually somewhat educational and give us the opportunity to deal with like minded people. But at the end of the day, they are just sport, just a game. In my limited experience in this world, they have the unique ability to reinforce some of the worst habits that people can develop and not give them the opportunity to understand why their mistakes could cost them their lives on the street. Things like the (I $hit you not, I saw this happen) post "combat" reload press check... unreal. How about the 3 shot course of fire, best 2 shots count. I have no idea how many rounds it is going to take to put an end to my next gunfight, but I guarantee that I will be shooting as many rounds as it takes because I train that way. I could go on and on, but really it comes down to the recognition that it is a game, and that it shouldn't affect the way you use your firearm when you are training for defense.
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but I definitely believe you see something that is lacking in their approach to training.
Just my 2 cents here, but the shooting sports, IDPA, USPSA, Cowboy Action etc... ARE NOT TRAINING!!!!! They are sports, they are fun sports, they teach you weapon familiarity and weapon handling skills, they have NOTHING to do with training.
We do them for fun, IDPA at least shoots from cover and concealment, and you use a normal gun, but beyond figuring out if the holster/cover garment you were works for drawing and re holstering your gun, they have NOTHING to do with training.
I have not heard any, and maybe this is where my confusion comes from, of the main sport leaders espouse that their sport is a training grounds for using a defensive weapon. The only time I hear that is from people who don't like IDPA because it's not a real training regiment. Well, duh... who said it was?
Brian - Avid IDPA and USPSA shooter
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I would have to comment that "sports" at least set the idea of shooting AND moving,even if it is in the "wrong" direction, as opposed to standing and firing as at a traditional range. In order to be more realistic the shooter would need to start at the rear of the course and fire as he moved away from sequential threats.
Also, while it is not in the same league stress wise as an attack, when the buzzer goes you have to act THEN, no thinking, no planning, thats all behind you, BUZZZ DO.
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Just my 2 cent..or is it a 25 cents with inflation.....Any how
FullAuto I think the key point to look at is it is a sport, i.e. a game. They are done for the fun and love of shooting. As far as training goes I think what the sports do is give an outlet to show what your training has done for you are far as target recognition, gun knowledge, handling, movement for cover to cover, and combat accuracy. If by some chance you learn something from the sport great, if not and you just meet some great people and have a good time….That sure beats a day at work. ;D
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Ok. Let me try this again. I started shooting IDPA a little over six months ago and what drew me to them was the following from their web site (emphasis is mine):
What is IDPA?
IDPA as a sport is quite simply the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated “real world” self-defense scenarios. Shooters competing in IDPA events are required to use practical handguns and holsters that are truly suitable for self-defense use. No “competition only” equipment is permitted in IDPA matches since the main goal is to test the skill and ability of an individual, not his equipment or gamesmanship.
What are the goals of IDPA?
1: Promote safe and proficient use of guns and equipment suitable for self-defense use.
2: Provide a level playing field for all competitors to test the skill and ability of the individual, not their equipment or gamesmanship.
3: Provide separate divisions for equipment and classifications for shooters, such that guns with similar characteristics are grouped together and people with similar skills compete only against each other.
4: Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire that simulate a potentially life-threatening encounter or that tests skills that would be required to survive a life-threatening encounter.
5: Offer a practical shooting sport that is responsive to the shooters and sponsors, with unprecedented stability of equipment rules.
6: Offer a practical shooting sport that allows the competitors to concentrate on the development of their shooting skills and fellowship with other likeminded shooters.
Since I do not shoot USPSA, I will leave them out of this discussion. Also this discussion is NOT intended to be a defense or criticism of IDPA. I think they are good to use as an object lesson for an abstract concept with a practical application.
As one can see, IDPA promotes itself as an organization that is dedicated to preparing people to use their firearms in life threatening situations. To IDPA, their matches are "games" with a purpose.
My question to Rob/John concerns what is lacking or missing that will allow IDPA to truly realize its goals. John mentioned a few things he sees as flaws in their approach. But I have to ask if any training system, game, or competition that doesn't use completely unpredictable events, allow for real exchange of gunfire, and allow for the prospect of death is it then then a complete waste of time? Of course not.
So the $507,283.58 question (the orig. $64K question adjusted for inflation ;)) is if you ran IDPA, or any organization with its mission statement, what would you change to make it a practical training regimen?
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So the $507,283.58 question (the orig. $64K question adjusted for inflation ;)) is if you ran IDPA, or any organization with its mission statement, what would you change to make it a practical training regimen?
I wouldn't want IDPA to become a practical training regimen. I like it the way it is (I don't compete anymore, however), it lets you do things that cannot be done at you local indoor range (move, shoot, multiple targets, different positions), but in no way, in my opinion does it provide for a practical training regimen. If you want that go take Rob Pincus' Combat Focus class, or classes from Gabe Suarez or many other fine trainers.
But to answer the question in the Subject Line: the shooting sports are missing cheerleaders! Go Team!
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So the $507,283.58 question (the orig. $64K question adjusted for inflation ;)) is if you ran IDPA, or any organization with its mission statement, what would you change to make it a practical training regimen?
The question, as I hear it is, how can one get a practical training regimen from a $10 - $20/per month shooting sport Instead of spending $500 to $3000 for a 2-5 day class?
I think the answer is you can't. There is not training going on at a match, only shooting. No one wants to come out to a 3-4 hour match, listen to someone's tactics lecture with 30-40 other people and then shoot a COF. You chase of the experienced shooters, and bore the average shooter, and maybe interest the beginning shooter the 1st time out, but how to you do the training? If I go to a match, I go to shoot, if I go to a training class... I go to learn, shooting comes from the learning under direct supervision and instruction. You can't do that at the sport level, I don't think the sport would last long.
On the other hand, there is nothing stopping you from applying combat skills to a COF. You will probably not win, but if your goal is to survive/train and not win the match, then what does it matter?
The other thing you CAN do, is get involved with your local IDPA club, and start designing CsOF, maybe even volunteer as a match director. This way YOU CONTROL THE COURSE OF FIRE! You can setup what you would perceive as a real life encounter.
You can also do a blind COF. My club does that occasionally, (warning they take a LOT OF TIME!) but these are really cool, because you don't know where the targets are, or what surprises may be hidden. IF you can get the shooters to shut there mouth after shooting the COF, it can be a real fun time!
I think that one of the things good about sport shooting about combat/self defense is the surprise factor. How to deal with the sudden burst of adrenaline, because it really messes with your mind. From that point of view, the shooting sports are good at elevating your stress level, and learning how your body deals with it. (IF you are aware of what is happening, if your not, then it doesn't do much good) I've been shooting for a while, and every time that stinking buzzer goes off, my heart rate goes up and I do something stupid, like forget that a target array is around a corner. DOH!
My thoughts, interested in what other have to say.
Brian
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Good discussion Fullauto.
What is missing?
Non violent resolution, avoidance and shooting while moving backwards are a start, the first 2, would not make much of a game, subsequently not much fun, unless you like acting and critics. Shooting while moving backwards is great practice, but generally not allowed in most games, just like shooting while on the ground with some part of your body forward of the muzzle, this is done for safety reasons, someone might fall, or jerk the trigger while shooting, while sitting on the ground, with their feet forward and blow a foot or a toe off, even though, you should be able to draw and shoot if you get knocked down and practice it. No matter how much sense it makes, no body wants to get sued.
Whether We like it or not, Idpa, and Uspsa are offensive not defensive, as they both require, termination of the target, every scenario is defensive in nature, but the solution is termination in every instance. The things that they provide the competitors that are positive, are gun handling under stress and movement, sight alignment and trigger press ( accuracy ), target recognition, and instant response, BUZZER go's off, must act. It also allows for equipment testing, firearm, holster, sling, and clothing, but not all good equipment is allowed. Pocket holsters? Fanny packs? Ankle holsters? Purse holsters ( man or woman ) etc...
Things I like that can be used but rarely are, targets with balloons behind them that have to be broken in order for the target to fall, target must fall to count. I used this idea with standard targets ( Milpark ) borrowed from Clint Smith, who uses this type of target at Thunder Ranch, but it is a box target, and they cost like 5 bucks apiece, I take a standard target, and punch holes an inch to 2 inches apart, starting at the top of the head, spaced about 6 inches apart vertically, all the way to the crotch, but centered on the spine, install cable ties through the holes horizontally, then run a string vertically from top to bottom connected to the cable ties in a loop,the string is attached to a 1x2" or 2x4" stick with a staple to connect it, just loose enough that a 4" to 6" balloon can be pushed between the string and the target and that will keep the target up until busted. These balloons should be placed at the head position, sternum position, or pelvis position. This is to emulate, 2 shots to the body that did not work, so go to the head, if that does not work, take out the support structure, the pelvis, bad part, you have to hit each of these points accurately, if your missing, you could be doing things tactically correct, but not hitting the balloon. I've had competitors run out of ammo doing this.
Short answer realism, long answer, it is always up to the course designer to be challenging, or just design stages that are fun, the competitors will always push for fun, if the course is too challenging and too few shots are fired, they will get bored. Realistically most stages should be 3 shots or less and under 7 yards, and I think you should have 2 stages like that at every match, but the other 2 - 4 should be less predicable. I have run tactical matches for years, I always tried to stress 1 skill per stage, weak hand shooting, up close and personal, extended distance, hard core target recognition, and using cover as a requirement of each stage, this is not a recognized or affiliated match, so I don't have to answer anyone about course design, except the shooters who play. We use the do right rules, if the competitor tries to game it, he or she can be called on it. Realists like it, gamers don't.
We can't all afford to go to the cool ranges once a month for training, so the local matches are our practice ground, use them to your benefit, and shoot them within the rules for the best effect for personal defense.
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The question, as I hear it is, how can one get a practical training regimen from a $10 - $20/per month shooting sport Instead of spending $500 to $3000 for a 2-5 day class?
No, that's not what I am implying by my question. Maybe I need to explain how I see training. I see training as encompassing the CFS class (or pick your favorite training program), practice at a range/home with the skills learned at the class, and applying those skills in a controlled simulation like what IDPA provides; it's all one continuum. To me they are not mutually exclusive and ideally they should be complimentary.
On the other hand, there is nothing stopping you from applying combat skills to a COF. You will probably not win, but if your goal is to survive/train and not win the match, then what does it matter?
That's my goal when I go to the match. I have very good SOs who will give some timely advice, especially when I get a PE....
The other thing you CAN do, is get involved with your local IDPA club, and start designing CsOF, maybe even volunteer as a match director. This way YOU CONTROL THE COURSE OF FIRE! You can setup what you would perceive as a real life encounter.
That's a good suggestion. Once I have established myself in the club, I will give that a shot. Incidentally, Massad Ayoob shoots at the club I go to and he has setup these scenarios in the past; the Miami FBI shootout is one.
I think that one of the things good about sport shooting about combat/self defense is the surprise factor. How to deal with the sudden burst of adrenaline, because it really messes with your mind. From that point of view, the shooting sports are good at elevating your stress level, and learning how your body deals with it. (IF you are aware of what is happening, if your not, then it doesn't do much good) I've been shooting for a while, and every time that stinking buzzer goes off, my heart rate goes up and I do something stupid, like forget that a target array is around a corner. DOH!
I understand that the scenarios can only do so much given the locale, expertise of the volunteers, the shooters, etc. Someone told me that one usually reverts back to their training in these situations. My thought is any kind of simulation that puts me under stress and forces me to perform competently AND effectively is useful.
Good discussion Fullauto.
Thanks!
Shooting while moving backwards is great practice, but generally not allowed in most games, just like shooting while on the ground with some part of your body forward of the muzzle, this is done for safety reasons, someone might fall, or jerk the trigger while shooting, while sitting on the ground, with their feet forward and blow a foot or a toe off, even though, you should be able to draw and shoot if you get knocked down and practice it. No matter how much sense it makes, no body wants to get sued.
At the club I belong we have done some of the things you suggest here. I have shot prone and under old vehicles but never where any part of my body is forward of the muzzle; I think the safety issue is what prevails there.
We can't all afford to go to the cool ranges once a month for training, so the local matches are our practice ground, use them to your benefit, and shoot them within the rules for the best effect for personal defense.
The reason I started this thread is I heard Rob state on one of his podcasts he encounters those who shoot at IDPA matches think they are adequately prepared to handle a life threatening situation when, in fact, they are not. To paraphrase him, he used the example of someone who can draw and shoot a target in under 2 seconds should not be overly confident in that ability being there for them in a crisis situation. Rob, if I got this wrong please clarify what you were trying to convey.
I inferred that he was finding some fault in the IDPA methods and I wondered what he would suggest to fix that. I also agree with you that not everyone can go to elite training every month, so what are those like me who have more limited resources to do? Frankly, I do not want to waste my time at a match where I think I am learning some aspects of personal defense with a firearm when there is very little, if any, connection with what happens in the "real world".
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Any time spent concentrating on, site acquire, presss is not wasted, whether it is with a loaded weapon at a high end training center, a loaded weapon at a match of some sort, or an unloaded weapon in your cellar. The US Marine Corps trains the worlds best marksmen, and a large portion of the first week of rifle training consists of "Snapping in" gathered around a barrel painted with the various targets, you practice getting into the various shooting positions, sighting, and SQUEEEZing the trigger. The following week when you actually shoot your muscles are stretched out enough for the positions, you know how your site picture should look and you know when your trigger will break. The firing week is used to put it all together to put the bullet on the target.
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No, that's not what I am implying by my question. Maybe I need to explain how I see training. I see training as encompassing the CFS class (or pick your favorite training program), practice at a range/home with the skills learned at the class, and applying those skills in a controlled simulation like what IDPA provides; it's all one continuum. To me they are not mutually exclusive and ideally they should be complimentary.
Then we are on the same page. :) And the answer is then a personal answer and not a shooting sport answer. You have to do what you need to, to train.
That's a good suggestion. Once I have established myself in the club, I will give that a shot. Incidentally, Massad Ayoob shoots at the club I go to and he has setup these scenarios in the past; the Miami FBI shootout is one.
I am jealous!! You are blessed to be able to shoot with Mr. Ayoob. But don't wait!!!! Go up to the MD and tell him, I'm here to help, put me to work! Get there early, stay late to clean up. Tell them you want to do some course design. Most MD and clubs I know are always glad to hear that.
The reason I started this thread is I heard Rob state on one of his podcasts he encounters those who shoot at IDPA matches think they are adequately prepared to handle a life threatening situation when, in fact, they are not.
That is true, but it is NOT IDPA teaching that. That is their personal opinion of their skill set. It happens in USPSA as well. They are not the norm, nor are they the driving force behind IDPA. They are just a participant in the sport, they don't run it. I have not met a MD or heard of one that espouses that point of view, I'm sure they are out there, but they get weeded out pretty quick.
Brian
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Brian, your last comment is true; it is each shooters perception of his/ her ability that allow them to continue to do the bad things that they do. And while the people running the match do not necessarilly condone the mistakes, I doubt they go out of their way to address them either. Telling someone that what they are doing is likely to get them killed in a real fight isn't a good icebreaker.
Guys, I know that this is a "game" as most of us have pointed out, but think about the name and what thoughts it envokes in you. If something is billed as a "defensive pistol" competition then that is what it should be, even if it is a game. It isn't defensive, for the most part, and I think that the inconsistencies are some of what Rob takes issue with.
Someone in a previous post mentioned "blind scenarios," personally I think that this would be the only legitimate way to do things. Forgoing the suspension of disbelief of walking voluntarily into a gun fight, in a true defensive situation you aren't going to know the sequence of targets, the coreographed steps through the room, when you will have to reload, whether or not you are going to have to perform a malfunction drill etc... All of those things are what makes IDPA non-defensive. I get that it isn't training, but it also isn't truly defensive, and while those of us here know that (at least I assume that we do), I suspect that a lot of the participants do think that and haven't had any training on how to use a firearm to defend themselves.
Quick question, and chalk this up to lack of experience with these competitions, does everyone have to go from a concealed holster? I know the idea is to "level" the playing field. In other words if you can't afford the Jackie Mason putter from Caddy Shack II that lays down the grid then you're out of luck. But there should be rules that say something to the affect of "If you would not carry this gun to protect yourself in public than you may not use it here." I know tons of people who shoot comps with a 1911 of some sort but carry an itty bitty wheel gun. Far as I am concerned they need to do the comp with the gun they carry...
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Brian, your last comment is true; it is each shooters perception of his/ her ability that allow them to continue to do the bad things that they do. And while the people running the match do not necessarily condone the mistakes, I doubt they go out of their way to address them either. Telling someone that what they are doing is likely to get them killed in a real fight isn't a good icebreaker.
What is bad? Why is it bad? Who say's it's a mistake? It's a game, I just did it 10-30 seconds faster that you did, and you want someone to pull me aside and say, you know in the real world that would get you killed?
Not picking on "you", but do you see the issue? It's a game, not a training seminar. The SO/RO's are not tactic coaches, the MD is not the guru for defensive shooting scenario's. In fact, they may have never been to a defensive class, but they love to shoot and are in the sport. The people that run your everyday IDPA clubs and matches are not police, swat team members, they are not the Massad Ayoobs of the industry, they are everyday guys, like you and me.
It is what it is...
Guys, I know that this is a "game" as most of us have pointed out, but think about the name and what thoughts it envokes in you. If something is billed as a "defensive pistol" competition then that is what it should be, even if it is a game.
If it's a defensive pistol class, and you know it's coming, is it really defensive? If you go into a shoot house to save your family, even if you have the choice not to shoot. Are you really acting defensively? If the guys in the house are shooting back with air soft, but you know they are going to do it going in, is it really defensive?
I don't think you can truly train, defensively, as you are wanting to defining it. That you can't know about it, that you must be "surprised" when it happens. If you pay for a $5000 defensive pistol class, you are paying to learn to shoot your gun, why and etc... not walk around the campus for a week, and wait to be surprised by the instructor that says "gotcha".
My point here is, it is what it is. It will never truly be defensive, the way you are describing it.
Quick question, and chalk this up to lack of experience with these competitions, does everyone have to go from a concealed holster? I know the idea is to "level" the playing field. In other words if you can't afford the Jackie Mason putter from Caddy Shack II that lays down the grid then you're out of luck. But there should be rules that say something to the affect of "If you would not carry this gun to protect yourself in public than you may not use it here." I know tons of people who shoot comps with a 1911 of some sort but carry an itty bitty wheel gun. Far as I am concerned they need to do the comp with the gun they carry...
www.idpa.com. You can download the rule book and read it, it's short and easy read.
To summarize, yes they actually do say, in the rule book, If it's not suitable for concealed, everyday carry, you can't use it. Then they define what that is.
Yes, you do have to draw from concealment if the COF calls for it, or from a desk drawer, or a bedstand, or from the gun in the gun lock.
That was actually a great COF that my club did, to illustrate how insane it is to lock your defensive gun with a gun lock. Took people 15 to 45 seconds to unlock the gun, load it and shoot 1 shot! Eye opener.
Anyway, it's a great sport... it beats throwing lead down the range at stationary targets. It gets you around like minded people and you can discuss the various nature of using a IWB vs OWB holster, ankle vs pocket, .45 vs 9mm, etc... we even talk politics!
It's a sport.. IF you are defensive minded, and have had training, it will help you keep your skills up and sharp. If you have never had any training... it won't help you develop tactics, but that's not what it is suppose to do.
Brian
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From reading some of the comments here I have come up with the following comments of my own: First,
(Quote from JohnCasey4) Telling someone that what they are doing is likely to get them killed in a real fight isn't a good icebreaker.
(Quote from Luvmy45) I just did it 10-30 seconds faster that you did, and you want someone to pull me aside and say, you know in the real world that would get you killed?
I think you may have mistaken JC4's meaning, I think he was referring more to things that safety and other "sport" requirements mandate, like not shooting with a body part forward of the muzzle, rather than simply doing it quicker. At least that was my understanding.
Secondly, I think the title precludes any other forms of conflict resolution. In the "REAL world you have the options of avoidance, or talking your way out of a situation, but in Defensive PISTOL your options are pretty much limited to shooting or clubbing, and since it's a SHOOTING sport, Well you guys can figure it out. ;D
Third, This one is just an opinion, knowing the course in advance detracts from the usefulness, but gives practice with engaging targets that are not lined up in square range formation. Blind courses would provide more realistic scenarios as you are suddenly presented with a shooting situation solve it now, don't think, DO. are you engaging ALL the targets, Are there non shoot targets, all these questions must be answered as you are drawing and firing.
As I may have said earlier I DO NOT shoot IDPA (my local range does it Wed. night when I'm working :( ) But ANY time spent on "site acquire, trigger press" is useful, the rest is thoughts inspired by your previous posts in this thread.
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Brilliant as always, Tom. Brilliant as always.
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+1 Tom!
You guys know that I came up through competition. I helped found USPSA and my IDPA number is A-00009. I believe that competition can teach you things you will have a hard time learning anywhere else. But competition is not training! Here's what I believe competition excels at teaching:
• Gun-handling skills. I can always tell a competition shooter.
• Safety. Period. Exclamation point!
• Failure drills/jam clearances.
• For lack of a better word, gun-sense...competition shooters tend to be more comfortable with their guns because they handle them more, and it shows.
• A grounding in the basics.
• An understanding of "broken" position shooting.
Competition does not teach strategy, tactics, awareness, avoidance, verbal skills, close-in empty hand/improvised weapon/firearm skills, weapons retention, etc. I was in the first "test class" that laid the groundwork for the USPSA National Range Officer Institute, and my friend Tom Judd and I did the first (I believe) Safety Officer classes for IDPA, but I remain uncomfortable relying on ROs/SOs for anything but match-related information. I have been lucky enough to be a shooter on stages run by some of the legends of the sport — Walt Rauch, Jim Cirillo, Ken Hackathorn, Bill Wilson, Bill Rogers, among others. I have also been a shooter on stages with ROs/SOs who barely understood how to get through the stage, much less provide any Real World tactical information.
Choose your instructors carefully!
Michael B
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Okay, I've watched this thread for a few days to let people express some opinions and thoughts before jumping in... I wasn't ignoring it by any stretch!
I think there is a lot of good stuff here, but I want to answer the original question.
The problem with competition is that it tries to put an OBJECTIVE set of rules/measurements over a very subjective situation. Any time that you do that, you are going to get people who want to "play the rules" instead of "playing the game." The interest in winning steers some people towards trying to work every rule to their advantage, regardless of what they would "really" do. This ruins competition's value as a "simulation" or evaluation of real tactical skill.
This is the attitude that is very well demonstrated by this type of statement (taken out of context by the OP):What is bad? Why is it bad? Who say's it's a mistake? It's a game, I just did it 10-30 seconds faster that you did, and you want someone to pull me aside and say, you know in the real world that would get you killed?
It exemplifies the attitude that score is somehow relevant to the Real World "just because".
As alluded to by another poster, you can certainly ignore the "rules" and take advantage of the opportunity to shoot some cool courses of fire and do things that they may not normally let you do. Unfortunately, most RSO's won't let you shoot a stage blind and you an sometimes violate the "safety rules" by doing things in a way that would be "more right" in the real world (moving when you are not supposed to, engaging targets in the "wrong" order, etc....
Most clubs don't actually seem to want guys who are there to practice, as opposed to compete. My take is that the range heroes who take home the plaques and tell people they are "defensive" shooters don't want to be made to look bad by the SLOW guy who is obviously being more defensive (and doesn't care about his score) and undermining the false legitimacy of their "defensive shooting title".
There area a lot of positive opportunities in some competition arenas that shouldn't be ignored:
As Tom mentioned, the need to act when the buzzer goes off can be a positive. Of course, you probably already had a briefing about the stage, say three other people do it and got a tip from your buddy... so it isn't exactly Counter Ambush reaction, but at least there is some time pressure.
As M. Bane mentioned, the weapons handling practice can really be a huge positive. Of course, if you're practicing things that only work reliably under range conditions, you may be getting very good at the wrong things. Looking at your gun while reloading and rushing to "Empty and Show Clear" are probably not how you want to spend your time if you are really trying to develop defensive shooting skills. Swinging your gun at extension across a plate rack IS NOT multiple target training, it is a circus trick.
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As always, you have to have integrity. I applaud the guys who say "this is just a game and I do it to have fun." There is integrity in that type of statement. I applaud the guys who say "it is the only time that my local range allows my to draw from my holster and shoot, so I show up." That makes sense to me.
-RJP
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Rob,
With due respect, I believe that my quote is being taken out of context, unfortunately the nature of the beast in this way of communicating. My full comment with the comment you quoted:
What is bad? Why is it bad? Who say's it's a mistake? It's a game, I just did it 10-30 seconds faster that you did, and you want someone to pull me aside and say, you know in the real world that would get you killed?
Not picking on "you", but do you see the issue? It's a game, not a training seminar. The SO/RO's are not tactic coaches, the MD is not the guru for defensive shooting scenario's. In fact, they may have never been to a defensive class, but they love to shoot and are in the sport. The people that run your everyday IDPA clubs and matches are not police, swat team members, they are not the Massad Ayoobs of the industry, they are everyday guys, like you and me.
It is what it is...
I think you and I are on the same page. This was not meant to defend the shooting sports but to illustrate the point that, the shooting sports are NOT defensive training grounds, they do not have qualified defensive instructors as the SO/RO and really have not place in telling someone what they should or should not be doing. Because this is a game.
I think the original questions, "What do modern shooting sports lack?" is a worded bad, because it infers that there is a problem with the shooting sports. That they are missing the boat, that they could be more than what they are?
I think the modern shooting sports lack nothing, but more members. :-) They are NOT training grounds for defensive shooting, they are not tactical courses on how to handle situations that arise. They ARE a lot of fun. They do teach you, as M. Bane has said, gun handling skills, awareness of the gun, etc...
My issue with a question like this, is that the sport is being made out like it is suppose to be something that it is not. IDPA, and I love the sport, USPSA, and I enjoy that sport, are just that games and sports, and time to talk with like minded individuals, spur competition, and maybe go home with a new gun if you place well or get lucky in the drawing.
It is what it is, why do people want to try and make it something that it's not?
Regards,
Brian
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Brian, you are correct... I did take your statement out of YOUR context. I edited my post to reflect that.
That is reason that I didn't put your name there... I didn't mean to leave the impression that I thought that you were one of those who were misrepresenting the GAME as "training". As you noted, several RSOs do think of themselves as instructors and misunderstand the rules of their preferred sport as rules of defensive shooting/tactics.
So, in that regard, maybe the original comment on my podcast was also a bit out of context. I don't think the shooting sports are missing anything as GAMES.... they are too often mis-represented as other-than-that, however, which is what I often address is class lectures.
-RJP
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[shooting sports] ...are too often mis-represented as other-than-that, however, which is what I often address it in class lectures.
I completely agree with you.
And thank you for clarifying your intentions with previous post. In the context that you were using it, you are completely correct. It does express the attitude of some.
Thanks,
Brian
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Rob,
Thanks for answering the original question, which helps me understand your point of view.
For the others: the crux of the question comes from Rob's podcast on 2/4/2008, and is titled "Balance of Speed and Precision". Rob references competitive shooters in IDPA at about the seven minute mark.
All,
As someone who has actually used (fired) their handgun in self defense in a life threatening situation, I am taking my approach to self defense with a firearm much more seriously than I did before it happened. I posted my story (http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=3481.0) on the forum several months ago to give others an idea of what it might be like to be in a situation like that and I wanted to learn from others who had endured a similar situation.
After that experience I looked at various options. I took a NRA self-defense course and considered going to one of the established schools, but resources were always an issue; when is it not, right? Friends told me about IDPA and encouraged me to check them out. I was relieved to find on their website they state as one of their goals to, "Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire that simulate a potentially life-threatening encounter or that tests skills that would be required to survive a life-threatening encounter." I guess I should not have believed what I read..... :-\
From the beginning, my expectations of IDPA were that they were building on the training I received and I would be practicing techniques that would help me in a crisis situation. Based upon the weight of the posts in this thread, I am very mistaken. From my point of view now, IDPA really should change their name to something that does not have the word "defensive" in it; it just isn't so. Maybe those who established it had one set of ideals but it appears there is a disconnect from what they aspired to achieve and what actually happens. I have to say JohnCasey was right about them in his earlier posts.
JohnCasey,
You mentioned that you don't have much experience with IDPA matches. A suggestion (FWIW): Maybe do some field research and shoot a few matches in your area to get an idea of what they are like. Knowing your background, you will have to reserve judgment until you have tried a few matches. This way you will know first-hand what they can and can not do. In fact, I will be eager to hear what you think how they measure in terms of what you know and what they state are their goals in these competitions.
Tom, Michael, Rob, and M25 gave good feedback that I will carry forward. I will continue to shoot IDPA, but I will not take it seriously anymore. As Rob said in the above referenced podcast, "the correlation between the belief in your ability and your actual ability, is raised through frequent and realistic practice." I thought IDPA gives that opportunity, but I guess I will use it as part of my practice of the fundamentals and look for another venue to get the "realistic" part down.
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I've competed in IDPA, steel challenge and "tactical" rifle competitions at my local gun club. A lot of members know that I am in the military and I am often asked the difference between the competitions I've mentioned and the "real deal." My first answer is always the same, my targets in these competitions do not shot back. I am not suggesting that they should start having targets shooting back, that's foolish. If that ever happens it wouldn't be a game and it won't be fun, anymore. Sure there is a little bit of pressure trying to outscore everyone else, but it's not the same when you are fighting for your life and when your target is just few feet away with a gun or a rifle pointing at you.
Targets, electronic buzzers or the general environment in competitive sports do not generate the same stimulus like a real violent encounter. So, the correlation between your initial reaction in competitive sports and real world violent encounter will never be on the same level of intensity. In competitive sports your targets are pre-positioned and you can envision how you are going to engage your targets and decide which cardboard or plate to hit first. You can also dictate how fast you'll get through a scenario in competitive sports. In real world engagement the threat that's presented to you will decide whether or not you shoot or don't shoot or how fast you can eleminate the threat. Your RECOGNITION OR AWARENESS will be different in competitive sport and real world.
Another issue that is "lacking" in competitive shooting is consideration of othes or bystanders. Sure there are "no shoot" targets, but it's not a big deal if you grace or hit it with your bullets. In real world engagement you may have to decide whether you can engage your target without your rounds hitting innocent people. Do you have the mindset to actually shoot someone and potentially kill another human being? A lot of people will say, "Hell yeah! I'll kill that mother$%^&er if he is trying to kill me." I've seen some people freeze in the middle of a violent engagement. It's not because they are cowards (this is another topic) some of us are not capable of taking another life even when their life is in danger. We are all different.
If you survive an actual engagement you will realized or at least look back whether your training (competitions)really prepared you for the real world. I guess the question is not "What is lacking in modern shooting sports?" rather "What is the difference between modern shooting sports and real world engagements?" As far as I'm concern, the sports are not lacking anything for what it is, a sport.
Joel
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I'm pretty new to competition and the only value that I feel that it offers me, over just going to the range, is that I have to shoot and operate my pistol under a higher level of stress. Are there more things that I could learn to make me better prepared?
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From the beginning, my expectations of IDPA were that they were building on the training I received and I would be practicing techniques that would help me in a crisis situation. Based upon the weight of the posts in this thread, I am very mistaken. From my point of view now, IDPA really should change their name to something that does not have the word "defensive" in it; it just isn't so. Maybe those who established it had one set of ideals but it appears there is a disconnect from what they aspired to achieve and what actually happens. I have to say JohnCasey was right about them in his earlier posts.
This is unfortunate that your experience has led you to this conclusion, but, and I will fully admit, I am defending IDPA in this response, I think you are being unfair to the IDPA sport
I went to a McDonalds once, it was fast, friendly and the bathrooms were clean and the food was great.
Therefore, all McDonald's are great dining experiences.
I use that to illustrate the point that, unfortunately, the IDPA club... which are locally run, is not adhering to the IDPA intentions and rules that has been set forth. Please, please, please, do not disparage the entire IPDA sport based on your encounter with one IDPA club and how they choose to shoot.
The club that I shoot out is great, most of the time we do use scenario's that would represent a real life encounter, and in fact have setup several real life incidents that have happened. And in fact at our state match we ran a COF that was very close to your actual encounter.
While walking along 2 dogs attack you, the owner of the dogs and his brothers are across the street and see you shoot at their dogs, they begin shooting at you. You can see a video of this here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBmHjFcsqFs
We do moving and shooting a lot, using cover. Is it defensive training. NO. Does it test skills that are needed?
If the skills such as what MB has stated:
• Gun-handling skills
• Safety.
• Failure drills/jam clearances.
• gun-sense...
• A grounding in the basics.
• An understanding of "broken" position shooting.
Then yes, it does test those skills. If your thinking it tests your decision making skills on WHEN to use a gun, then no, it does not do that.
You have a very unique perspective on what it means to use a gun in a defensive encounter. I would encourage you to use it to your advantage, help your local IDPA club design better COF's that do stress the skills that you think are valuable.
There are IDPA clubs that do adhere to the guidelines and principals of IDPA.
Brian
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This is unfortunate that your experience has led you to this conclusion, but, and I will fully admit, I am defending IDPA in this response, I think you are being unfair to the IDPA sport
This horse has been beat slap to death, and I should probably let this go. But what the hell! Let's beat this dead horse to a bloody pulp!
Brian,
I solicited a comment from Rob. I got several good answers, including you, that helped me to see it from a different perspective. Rob gave his follow up which nailed my original question perfectly. I evaluated what everyone said and gave more weight to those whose opinions are formed from experience handling weapons for a living in critical situations or those who have been involved in this arena for many years on a professional basis.
I took IDPA at face value when they stated as one of their goals is to, "Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire that simulate a potentially life-threatening encounter or that tests skills that would be required to survive a life-threatening encounter." Based upon what Rob and JohnCasey were talking about they don't measure up to that goal, and I now doubt they can due to the way they are setup. You even said the following (emphasis mine):
They are NOT training grounds for defensive shooting, they are not tactical courses on how to handle situations that arise. They ARE a lot of fun. They do teach you, as M. Bane has said, gun handling skills, awareness of the gun, etc...
My issue with a question like this, is that the sport is being made out like it is suppose to be something that it is not. IDPA, and I love the sport, USPSA, and I enjoy that sport, are just that games and sports, and time to talk with like minded individuals, spur competition, and maybe go home with a new gun if you place well or get lucky in the drawing.
As for the following:
It is what it is, why do people want to try and make it something that it's not?
Refer to my quote from IDPA's goals.....Brian, for me this is not some theoretical exercise like it is for you. And please don't tell me that you know where I'm coming from or you understand, because over 90-something percent of the people on this forum and at those matches have no clue what it's like to be in a situation like that; and I hope they never do.
I'm sorry that I stepped on your toes here, but I believe that an organization that is dedicated to helping their members become proficient at handling a firearm in a crisis situation should ensure those goals translate into sound methods and practices that reflect those goals. That's not being unfair to them, that is perfectly reasonable.
Like I said before, I will continue to shoot IDPA. I like the people. I think the COFs are fun and useful. But I will approach it with a different set of goals and attitudes now. The one thing I have learned to do over the years is to synthesize very dissimilar experiences into something completely cogent and coherent that teaches me something. I will do no less with IDPA.
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(http://www.steveaddison.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/flogging%20dead%20horse.jpg)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
We shall have to agree to disagree, and part ways knowing we are friends in the battle for our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Regards,
Brian
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Talk to your home range, match director or range master, and explain what you want, it is a fine line between, FUN, REALISM, AND SKILL SET. I mostly went for skill set, each problem stressed a specific skill, weak hand , strong hand, fast and furious, or extended range, reloading etc.. But it is practice not training, and just like perfect practice makes perfect training, imperfect scenarios make imperfect training, If you want to make a difference, volunteer to be a range officer, and make it to range master, where you get to set the stages, but be warned, people like high round count, not realism. 20/80 I would say, but don't let that influence you. Do it your way for as long as they let you.
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for me
the lack of choice :(
in relations to firearms to use
the restrictions we have here
the BS we need to go through to go shooting
I would also like to see more Positives in the media about our sport not just when the Olympics are on and Michael Diamond is winning in shotgun as there are so many more things to sporting shooting that just Olympic style shooting
more junior opportunity's ( that is starting more here in Aust.) really should be getting more and more in to it.
and the big one for us all to keep on the one message
ie Sporting Clay shooters to stick up for Long Range Shooters ( 50BMGers ) or people that use Semi Auto's ( I WANT an AR15 ) for competitions and not use the line we don't need those rifles caus I don't use them. That is the big one for me, whether you like it or not you should be supportive of every shooter's style and stop the elitist crap
not having a go @ Sporting Clay shooters just using them as an example, I shoot a little clays my self every now and then
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Keep in mind that some of this is semantics.
When IDPA claims to "simulate real life events" and then proceeds to tell everyone what is going to happen and, to a large extent, tell them exactly how to solve the problem, the FAIL to do what they claim..... that part is easy.
The next part, in terms of "preparing" people to defend themselves, may be MUCH MORE ACCURATE. IDPA has value, but the participants need to be honest to what those values are and recognize the GAME's limitations.
-RJP
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Keep in mind that some of this is semantics.
When IDPA claims to "simulate real life events" and then proceeds to tell everyone what is going to happen and, to a large extent, tell them exactly how to solve the problem, the FAIL to do what they claim..... that part is easy.
The next part, in terms of "preparing" people to defend themselves, may be MUCH MORE ACCURATE. IDPA has value, but the participants need to be honest to what those values are and recognize the GAME's limitations.
-RJP
Rob,
When you mentioned our practice should incorporate elements of surprise and spontaneity, you didn't mean the following?
http://www.youtube.com/v/pPq7oUmgvXc&hl=en&fs=1&border=1"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pPq7oUmgvXc&hl=en&fs=1&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364">
Just kidding!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I hope the your CFS course went well in Titusville this weekend.
Take care!
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Peter Sellars was GREAT. ;D
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Keep in mind that some of this is semantics.
When IDPA claims to "simulate real life events" and then proceeds to tell everyone what is going to happen and, to a large extent, tell them exactly how to solve the problem, they FAIL to do what they claim..... that part is easy.
Rob,
Help me understand what you mean by "simulate real life events." What part of the real life event, say of a car jacking, are you wanting to simulate? That would not be simulated in a IDPA COF. I'm not saying IDPA is perfect it is a game, but I'm struggling to understand what you mean by that.
And I guess I should open this up to all, FullAuto and others, what part of a simulation do you think is missing from IDPA. Please don't turn this into a bashing of the sport, just what you think is missing.
Thank you,
Brian
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The SPORTS don't seem to be missing anything as "Sport". If you want "TRAINING" go to a trainer.
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The part that it is missing is that in real life you have no idea what is about to happen. You go from "enjoy your fries sir" to "GET THE F OUT OF THE CAR!." There is no way that these sports can prepare you for what you will do, mainly because you know what is going to happen. One of the things so far about this forum that has impressed me is the lack of false bravado and chest puffing. For someone to say "When they come for my car I will just______" is bs, because you don't know what you are going to do. A lot of times in training we tend to forego the startle reaction at the point of ambush, we don't build it into our routine. But discounting something that will happen leaves us behind the power curve. This is something you are not likely to simulate well to a high degree of stress in a course involving live fire, mainly because it is different when you know the targets can't shoot back. At Valhalla we (Rob, Jeremiah, Brad to some extent and myself) spent a lot of time doing high level simulation stuff. It is great to see the Spec Ops guy go from hero to homo when he realizes that no one has his back and that his target is now mounted up and pushing his head through the floor. The same goes for car jacking scenarios, a pop out target is different from a human being walking up to the window and pulling you out by your neck. IDPA can't simulate that, at least not with live rounds.
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The part that it is missing is that in real life you have no idea what is about to happen. You go from "enjoy your fries sir" to "GET THE F OUT OF THE CAR!." There is no way that these sports can prepare you for what you will do, mainly because you know what is going to happen. One of the things so far about this forum that has impressed me is the lack of false bravado and chest puffing. For someone to say "When they come for my car I will just______" is bs, because you don't know what you are going to do. A lot of times in training we tend to forego the startle reaction at the point of ambush, we don't build it into our routine. But discounting something that will happen leaves us behind the power curve. This is something you are not likely to simulate well to a high degree of stress in a course involving live fire, mainly because it is different when you know the targets can't shoot back. At Valhalla we (Rob, Jeremiah, Brad to some extent and myself) spent a lot of time doing high level simulation stuff. It is great to see the Spec Ops guy go from hero to homo when he realizes that no one has his back and that his target is now mounted up and pushing his head through the floor. The same goes for car jacking scenarios, a pop out target is different from a human being walking up to the window and pulling you out by your neck. IDPA can't simulate that, at least not with live rounds.
Well, that pretty much sums up the bulk of it.
Having been shot at before allows me to agree that you don't know it's coming until it's coming.
8)
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The part that it is missing is that in real life you have no idea what is about to happen. You go from "enjoy your fries sir" to "GET THE F OUT OF THE CAR!." There is no way that these sports can prepare you for what you will do, mainly because you know what is going to happen. One of the things so far about this forum that has impressed me is the lack of false bravado and chest puffing. For someone to say "When they come for my car I will just______" is bs, because you don't know what you are going to do. A lot of times in training we tend to forego the startle reaction at the point of ambush, we don't build it into our routine. But discounting something that will happen leaves us behind the power curve. This is something you are not likely to simulate well to a high degree of stress in a course involving live fire, mainly because it is different when you know the targets can't shoot back. At Valhalla we (Rob, Jeremiah, Brad to some extent and myself) spent a lot of time doing high level simulation stuff. It is great to see the Spec Ops guy go from hero to homo when he realizes that no one has his back and that his target is now mounted up and pushing his head through the floor. The same goes for car jacking scenarios, a pop out target is different from a human being walking up to the window and pulling you out by your neck. IDPA can't simulate that, at least not with live rounds.
End of discussion..... close the thread!
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The part that it is missing is that in real life you have no idea what is about to happen.
That makes sense, and in the sport that would be impossible to do, as you can't score someone for not shooting because no bg's came at you.
So, how to you train for that? If you go to a training seminar. Wouldn't you also know that if you enter a shoot house, BG's are in there and you have to engage them? Or if you are put in a car, BG are going to come after you? Even using simunitions or airsoft, you still know that something is going to happen to you, don't you?
I have not done any training with them so I don't know. How do you setup that startle factor in training?
BTW, this thread has morphed, it's not about shooting sports now... so maybe it's time to start a new thread on this.
Thanks,
Brian
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I did, it's titled "Surprise ?"
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This thread has run its course and will be closed. I hope everyone got something useful from it as I did. :)
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For the 3rd time in the history of the internet, a thread went to 4 pages without turning worthless, circular, cheerleading or bashing!
The evolution of this discussion is in the thread that Tom mentioned above.....
-RJP