What do the modern shooting sports lack?

[fullautovalmet76]

Rob,
I listened to one of your podcasts and you pointed out a fallacy in IDPA shooting as it relates to being adequately prepared to deal with a real-world threat. I did not take your comments to be a wholesale criticism of the sport, but I definitely believe you see something that is lacking in their approach to training.

Would you explain what you perceive are fundamental weaknesses of IDPA and USPSA as it relates to personal defense with a firearm?

Thanks!

[johncasey4]

Full auto, the answer is simple, they don't have anything to do with training for defending yourself with a firearm. 

First, IDPA is supposed to be about Defensive Pistol right?  How many times have you charged head long into a situation involving gun play?  How many schools have you been into that said it was a good idea?  I am guessing(really hoping with all of my heart) that the answer is none.  Real defensive firearms situations have not much in common, but what they do have in common is critical at it's basic level and super important to understand.  1, you have no control over what the other guy does.  2. you generally have no advanced warning or any idea that it is happening.  3. once you do know what's happening your body goes through some hormonal changes that are hardwired into your system as a human and you have no control over them.  4.  You can not respond to a threat until you know that it is there.  4 and most importantly with regard to your question, your decisions decide whether you come home or not.

  The shooting sports are great fun, challenging, usually somewhat educational and give us the opportunity to deal with like minded people.  But at the end of the day, they are just sport, just a game.  In my limited experience in this world, they have the unique ability to reinforce some of the worst habits that people can develop and not give them the opportunity to understand why their mistakes could cost them their lives on the street.  Things like the (I $hit you not, I saw this happen) post "combat" reload press check... unreal.  How about the 3 shot course of fire, best 2 shots count.  I have no idea how many rounds it is going to take to put an end to my next gunfight, but I guarantee that I will be shooting as many rounds as it takes because I train that way.  I could go on and on, but really it comes down to the recognition that it is a game, and that it shouldn't affect the way you use your firearm when you are training for defense.

[luvmy45]

but I definitely believe you see something that is lacking in their approach to training.

Just my 2 cents here, but the shooting sports, IDPA, USPSA, Cowboy Action etc... ARE NOT TRAINING!!!!! They are sports, they are fun sports, they teach you weapon familiarity and weapon handling skills, they have NOTHING to do with training.

We do them for fun, IDPA at least shoots from cover and concealment, and you use a normal gun, but beyond figuring out if the holster/cover garment you were works for drawing and re holstering your gun, they have NOTHING to do with training.

I have not heard any, and maybe this is where my confusion comes from, of the main sport leaders espouse that their sport is a training grounds for using a defensive weapon. The only time I hear that is from people who don't like IDPA because it's not a real training regiment. Well, duh... who said it was?

Brian - Avid IDPA and USPSA shooter
 

[tombogan03884]

I would have to comment that "sports" at least set the idea of shooting AND moving,even if it is in the "wrong" direction, as opposed  to standing and firing as at a traditional range. In order to be more realistic the shooter would need to start at the rear of the course and fire as he moved away from sequential threats.
Also, while it is not in the same league stress wise as an attack, when the buzzer goes you have to act THEN, no thinking, no planning, thats all behind you, BUZZZ DO.

[TxIronWolf]

Just my 2 cent..or is it a 25 cents with inflation.....Any how

FullAuto I think the key point to look at is it is a sport, i.e. a game. They are done for the fun and love of shooting. As far as training goes I think what the sports do is give an outlet to show what your training has done for you are far as target recognition, gun knowledge, handling, movement for cover to cover, and combat accuracy. If by some chance you learn something from the sport great, if not and you just meet some great people and have a good time….That sure beats a day at work. 

[Sponsor]

[fullautovalmet76]

Ok. Let me try this again. I started shooting IDPA a little over six months ago and what drew me to them was the following from their web site (emphasis is mine):

What is IDPA?
IDPA as a sport is quite simply the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated “real world” self-defense scenarios. Shooters competing in IDPA events are required to use practical handguns and holsters that are truly suitable for self-defense use. No “competition only” equipment is permitted in IDPA matches since the main goal is to test the skill and ability of an individual, not his equipment or gamesmanship.

What are the  goals of IDPA?
1: Promote safe and proficient use of guns and equipment suitable for self-defense use.

2: Provide a level playing field for all competitors to test the skill and ability of the individual, not their equipment or gamesmanship.

3: Provide separate divisions for equipment and classifications for shooters, such that guns with similar characteristics are grouped together and people with similar skills compete only against each other.

4: Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire that simulate a potentially life-threatening encounter or that tests skills that would be required to survive a life-threatening encounter.

5: Offer a practical shooting sport that is responsive to the shooters and sponsors, with unprecedented stability of equipment rules.

6: Offer a practical shooting sport that allows the competitors to concentrate on the development of their shooting skills and fellowship with other likeminded shooters.

Since I do not shoot USPSA, I will leave them out of this discussion. Also this discussion is NOT intended to be a defense or criticism of IDPA. I think they are good to use as an object lesson for an abstract concept with a practical application.

As one can see, IDPA promotes itself as an organization that is dedicated to preparing people to use their firearms in life threatening situations. To IDPA, their matches are "games" with a purpose.

My question to Rob/John concerns what is lacking or missing that will allow IDPA to truly realize its goals. John mentioned a few things he sees as flaws in their approach. But I have to ask if any training system, game, or competition that doesn't use completely unpredictable events, allow for real exchange of gunfire, and allow for the prospect of death is it then then a complete waste of time? Of course not.

So the $507,283.58 question (the orig. $64K question adjusted for inflation  ) is if you ran IDPA, or any organization with its mission statement, what would you change to make it a practical training regimen?

[DonWorsham]

So the $507,283.58 question (the orig. $64K question adjusted for inflation  ) is if you ran IDPA, or any organization with its mission statement, what would you change to make it a practical training regimen?

I wouldn't want IDPA to become a practical training regimen. I like it the way it is (I don't compete anymore, however), it lets you do things that cannot be done at you local indoor range (move, shoot, multiple targets, different positions), but in no way, in my opinion does it provide for a practical training regimen. If you want that go take Rob Pincus' Combat Focus class, or classes from Gabe Suarez or many other fine trainers.

But to answer the question in the Subject Line: the shooting sports are missing cheerleaders! Go Team!

[luvmy45]

So the $507,283.58 question (the orig. $64K question adjusted for inflation  ) is if you ran IDPA, or any organization with its mission statement, what would you change to make it a practical training regimen?

The question, as I hear it is, how can one get a practical training regimen from a $10 - $20/per month shooting sport Instead of spending $500 to $3000 for a 2-5 day class?

I think the answer is you can't. There is not training going on at a match, only shooting. No one wants to come out to a 3-4 hour match, listen to someone's tactics lecture with 30-40 other people and then shoot a COF. You chase of the experienced shooters, and bore the average shooter, and maybe interest the beginning shooter the 1st time out, but how to you do the training? If I go to a match, I go to shoot, if I go to a training class... I go to learn, shooting comes from the learning under direct supervision and instruction. You can't do that at the sport level, I don't think the sport would last long.

On the other hand, there is nothing stopping you from applying combat skills to a COF. You will probably not win, but if your goal is to survive/train and not win the match, then what does it matter?

The other thing you CAN do, is get involved with your local IDPA club, and start designing CsOF, maybe even volunteer as a match director. This way YOU CONTROL THE COURSE OF FIRE! You can setup what you would perceive as a real life encounter.

You can also do a blind COF. My club does that occasionally, (warning they take a LOT OF TIME!) but these are really cool, because you don't know where the targets are, or what surprises may be hidden. IF you can get the shooters to shut there mouth after shooting the COF, it can be a real fun time!

I think that one of the things good about sport shooting about combat/self defense is the surprise factor. How to deal with the sudden burst of adrenaline, because it really messes with your mind. From that point of view, the shooting sports are good at elevating your stress level, and learning how your body deals with it. (IF you are aware of what is happening, if your not, then it doesn't do much good) I've been shooting for a while, and every time that stinking buzzer goes off, my heart rate goes up and I do something stupid, like forget that a target array is around a corner. DOH!

My thoughts, interested in what other have to say.

Brian

[m25operator]

Good discussion Fullauto.

What is missing?

Non violent resolution, avoidance and shooting while moving backwards are a start, the first 2, would not make much of a game, subsequently not much fun, unless you like acting and critics. Shooting while moving backwards is great practice, but generally not allowed in most games, just like shooting while on the ground with some part of your body forward of the muzzle, this is done for safety reasons, someone might fall, or jerk the trigger while shooting, while sitting on the ground, with their feet forward and blow a foot or a toe off, even though, you should be able to draw and shoot if you get knocked down and practice it. No matter how much sense it makes, no body wants to get sued.

Whether We like it or not, Idpa, and Uspsa are offensive not defensive, as they both require, termination of the target,  every scenario is defensive in nature, but the solution is termination in every instance. The things that they provide the competitors that are positive, are gun handling under stress and movement, sight alignment and trigger press ( accuracy ), target recognition, and instant response, BUZZER go's off, must act. It also allows for equipment testing, firearm, holster, sling, and clothing, but not all good equipment is allowed.  Pocket holsters? Fanny packs? Ankle holsters? Purse holsters ( man or woman ) etc...

Things I like that can be used but rarely are, targets with balloons behind them that have to be broken in order for the target to fall, target must fall to count. I used this idea with standard targets ( Milpark ) borrowed from Clint Smith, who uses this type of target at Thunder Ranch, but it is a box target, and they cost like 5 bucks apiece, I take a standard target, and punch holes an inch to 2 inches apart, starting at the top of the head, spaced about 6 inches apart vertically, all the way to the crotch, but centered on the spine, install cable ties through the holes horizontally, then run a string vertically from top to bottom connected to the cable ties in a loop,the string is attached to a 1x2" or 2x4" stick with a staple to connect it,  just loose enough that a 4" to 6" balloon can be pushed between the string and the target and that will keep the target up until busted. These balloons should be placed at the head position, sternum position, or pelvis position. This is to emulate, 2 shots to the body that did not work, so go to the head, if that does not work, take out the support structure, the pelvis, bad part, you have to hit each of these points accurately,  if your missing, you could be doing things tactically correct, but not hitting the balloon. I've had competitors run out of ammo doing this.

Short answer realism, long answer, it is always up to the course designer to be challenging, or just design stages that are fun, the competitors will always push for fun, if the course is too challenging and too few shots are fired, they will get bored. Realistically most stages should be 3 shots or less and under 7 yards, and I think you should have 2 stages like that at every match, but the other 2 - 4 should be less predicable. I have run tactical matches for years, I always tried to stress 1 skill per stage, weak hand shooting, up close and personal, extended distance, hard core target recognition, and using cover as a requirement of each stage, this is not a recognized or affiliated match, so I don't have to answer anyone about course design, except the shooters who play. We use the do right rules, if the competitor tries to game it, he or she can be called on it. Realists like it, gamers don't.

We can't all afford to go to the cool ranges once a month for training, so the local matches are our practice ground, use them to your benefit, and shoot them within the rules for the best effect for personal defense.

[fullautovalmet76]

The question, as I hear it is, how can one get a practical training regimen from a $10 - $20/per month shooting sport Instead of spending $500 to $3000 for a 2-5 day class?

No, that's not what I am implying by my question. Maybe I need to explain how I see training. I see training as encompassing the CFS class (or pick your favorite training program), practice at a range/home with the skills learned at the class, and applying those skills in a controlled simulation like what IDPA provides; it's all one continuum. To me they are not mutually exclusive and ideally they should be complimentary.

On the other hand, there is nothing stopping you from applying combat skills to a COF. You will probably not win, but if your goal is to survive/train and not win the match, then what does it matter?

That's my goal when I go to the match. I have very good SOs who will give some timely advice, especially when I get a PE....

The other thing you CAN do, is get involved with your local IDPA club, and start designing CsOF, maybe even volunteer as a match director. This way YOU CONTROL THE COURSE OF FIRE! You can setup what you would perceive as a real life encounter.

That's a good suggestion. Once I have established myself in the club, I will give that a shot. Incidentally, Massad Ayoob shoots at the club I go to and he has setup these scenarios in the past; the Miami FBI shootout is one.

I think that one of the things good about sport shooting about combat/self defense is the surprise factor. How to deal with the sudden burst of adrenaline, because it really messes with your mind. From that point of view, the shooting sports are good at elevating your stress level, and learning how your body deals with it. (IF you are aware of what is happening, if your not, then it doesn't do much good) I've been shooting for a while, and every time that stinking buzzer goes off, my heart rate goes up and I do something stupid, like forget that a target array is around a corner. DOH!

I understand that the scenarios can only do so much given the locale, expertise of the volunteers, the shooters, etc. Someone told me that one usually reverts back to their training in these situations. My thought is any kind of simulation that puts me under stress and forces me to perform competently AND effectively is useful.

Good discussion Fullauto.

Thanks!

Shooting while moving backwards is great practice, but generally not allowed in most games, just like shooting while on the ground with some part of your body forward of the muzzle, this is done for safety reasons, someone might fall, or jerk the trigger while shooting, while sitting on the ground, with their feet forward and blow a foot or a toe off, even though, you should be able to draw and shoot if you get knocked down and practice it. No matter how much sense it makes, no body wants to get sued.

At the club I belong we have done some of the things you suggest here. I have shot prone and under old vehicles but never where any part of my body is forward of the muzzle; I think the safety issue is what prevails there.

We can't all afford to go to the cool ranges once a month for training, so the local matches are our practice ground, use them to your benefit, and shoot them within the rules for the best effect for personal defense.

The reason I started this thread is I heard Rob state on one of his podcasts he encounters those who shoot at IDPA matches think they are adequately prepared to handle a life threatening situation when, in fact, they are not. To paraphrase him, he used the example of someone who can draw and shoot a target in under 2 seconds should not be overly confident in that ability being there for them in a crisis situation. Rob, if I got this wrong please clarify what you were trying to convey.

I inferred that he was finding some fault in the IDPA methods and I wondered what he would suggest to fix that. I also agree with you that not everyone can go to elite training every month, so what are those like me who have more limited resources to do? Frankly, I do not want to waste my time at a match where I think I am learning some aspects of personal defense with a firearm when there is very little, if any, connection with what happens in the "real world".