The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: MikeBjerum on March 25, 2009, 11:10:18 AM
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I don't want this to spiral down into a company blasting thread, but I am seeing things that make me ask -
Are we seeing more problems with firearms manufacturing and quaility of design and manufacture?
I can remember all the way back into the 60's when there were recalls and issues (the Ruger three screw being the most prominent), but I seem to be "aware" of more and more all the time in the last few years. My bigger question is are we seeing the compounding on rapid turn around in R&D to roll out, company aquisition, cost containment, passing on of the reins to a new generation, a combination of all, or something I missed ... Or, am I totally off base in my views?
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I don't want this to spiral down into a company blasting thread, but I am seeing things that make me ask -
Are we seeing more problems with firearms manufacturing and quaility of design and manufacture?
I can remember all the way back into the 60's when there were recalls and issues (the Ruger three screw being the most prominent), but I seem to be "aware" of more and more all the time in the last few years. My bigger question is are we seeing the compounding on rapid turn around in R&D to roll out, company aquisition, cost containment, passing on of the reins to a new generation, a combination of all, or something I missed ... Or, am I totally off base in my views?
There is nothing wrong with the Ruger 3 screw. It is PURRfect as it is. ;) ;D
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There is nothing wrong with the Ruger 3 screw. It is PURRfect as it is. ;) ;D
My only 3 screw has been updated (done before I aquired it), but basic firearm safety dictated there was nothing wrong with the design. Lawyers I believe were the bigger issue in this one ... and I'm sure several others >:( I have an American Western Arms with a hammer spur. Could be worse than the 3 screw design, but if you know how to handle a revolver properly it is a non-issue.
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I don't want this to spiral down into a company blasting thread, but I am seeing things that make me ask -
Are we seeing more problems with firearms manufacturing and quaility of design and manufacture?
I can remember all the way back into the 60's when there were recalls and issues (the Ruger three screw being the most prominent), but I seem to be "aware" of more and more all the time in the last few years. My bigger question is are we seeing the compounding on rapid turn around in R&D to roll out, company aquisition, cost containment, passing on of the reins to a new generation, a combination of all, or something I missed ... Or, am I totally off base in my views?
I think the part I high lighted is part of the answer, another part is "mass production technology". In modern gun factories (most factories in fact) the only "gun maker" is the company, the machine operators are button pushers to whom "parts is parts", they know how to operate their machine and could really care less what the parts go to, they have a list of dimensions to check on 1 part in 10 with tolerances of +/- .005 to +/- .01 , assemblers just put parts together and have a list of functions to check on 1 of 10 assemblies, and Quality control is focused on process, checking 1 part per 100. Through this whole process the companies emphasis is on out put, and scrap reduction , I know of many instances when operators knowingly let bad parts go because to much scrap would cost them their job.This allows crap to occasionally get through.
It seems that the main source of recalls lately though has been spurred by lawyers trying to protect the companies from asinine, unwarranted lawsuits
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I think Tom is right about lawyers being behind the last seveal recalls.
I also think that we may see this be more of a problem over the next year or so as the industry tries to play catch up. In their haste to fill demand by getting the depleted supply levels back to where they need to be, we may see the defects per million ratio increase. It may be as a result of a deliberate decision to let quality control suffer in order to get product to market or perhaps it will be because of all the new hires that they will have to rush through training and put into place in order to have the labor force needed to turn out product. Either way, I think that it will be inevitable that quality will suffer to some extent as they try to step on the accelerator and flood the market with more product.
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I know of many instances when operators knowingly let bad parts go because to much scrap would cost them their job.This allows crap to occasionally get through.
I would imagine this works in the automotive industry, I have seen it personally, but I would hope there is more care and concern in manufacturing a firearm than that.
Mass production has its drawbacks but most firearm makers are trying to have the new, big or best firearm on the market.
In 1990, I had the opportunity to tour the Beretta Firearms Factory in Brescia, Italy. Every worker you spoke to was very knowledgable about what part they were making and where it went on the firearm. They were incredibly proud of their products and their hearts went into their craft.
I would imagine that appeal to their product is the same at most other firearm factories.
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Surely someone will poop themselves a little and jump to opose this, but I bought a Remington 870 last year. Took it back the next day after taking it apart for cleaning and inspecting because 1. the extractor was cracked in three places. 2. Molding process or something went wrong when they made the locking lug. Only 3/4's of it was there! 3. After running over 40 patches through the barrel trying to get out all the dirt I found a big pit in it where they had attached the top rail.
The shop owner offered to "fix all this at no charge", I refused because it's supposed to be a new gun. He and I went through FIVE other guns inspecting them and finding much the same stuff wrong while he told me people have been having problems with Remington rifles too. I ended up getting a Super Nova from him (SUPER NICE GUN!) and buying an 870 from another store that had old stock. The 870 I finally took home had been in the stores back room over a year. Same model and everything as before, not a single problem. :)
Just my experience.
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That sucks to hear about the Remington. Sold my Benelli Super Nova to get a Remington 870. Benelli's are super sweet and only got rid of it cause I ordered a rifled barrel for it off ebay and got ripped off. >:( Was desperate for a deer gun. Otherwise I would have kept it.
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Thats dissapointing news about the 870. They were my fall back if I can't find a carbine in my price range. They always had the reputation of being well made and unstoppable. I hope it was just a bad batch and not indicative of larger QC issues.fightingquaker13
PS You have now officially kicked TAB's ass on the avatar front ;D
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PS You have now officially kicked TAB's ass on the avatar front ;D
Yes, I think equating BadgersMilk with TAB is a very accurate comparison..... As far as the avatar is concerned, I still fell the need to......... ::)
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Thats dissapointing news about the 870. They were my fall back if I can't find a carbine in my price range. They always had the reputation of being well made and unstoppable. I hope it was just a bad batch and not indicative of larger QC issues.fightingquaker13
I have a 870 Wingmaster, circa 1976. It is a wonderfull shotgun, well made, great lumber and still shoots and looks brandy new! My daughter has a newer youth model and the quality is GONE.....not the same....
Tom hit on something that I agree with (we have similar backgrounds). Machine operators are not the true craftsman that the manufacturing base had even thirty years ago. Button pushers are the norm these days because employers can have one highly skilled journeyman on the shift and several "operators" to make the parts. The journeyman sets up the process and the operator runs the job. Things will go wrong and the skilled craftsman can't measure everything...
We have four senior guys getting ready to retire in the next five years and there is NO WAY to replace the knowledge and experience that these men have gained over the last forty years. Precision parts are a product of the skills and knowledge of the man making them and the human function cannot be easily or cheaply replaced...
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"Machine operators are not the true craftsman that the manufacturing base had even thirty years ago. "
Cannot agree with you more on this. The question is, "Can it be changed?". ???
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"Machine operators are not the true craftsman that the manufacturing base had even thirty years ago. "
Cannot agree with you more on this. The question is, "Can it be changed?". ???
not really. CNC machining has improved machining as a whole... what has gone away is QC for the most part. No longer are people, looking and touching every part these days( generally speaking) I've seen many operations where there are 5-6 machines, one operator that does nothing but load stock into a machine and removes bins/ boxs for shipping. Even QC is handled by machine.
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Yes, I think equating BadgersMilk with TAB is a very accurate comparison..... As far as the avatar is concerned, I still fell the need to......... ::)
Good thing you claryfied that comparison. LOL
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"Machine operators are not the true craftsman that the manufacturing base had even thirty years ago. "
Cannot agree with you more on this. The question is, "Can it be changed?". ???
The day after it becomes profitable. Its always about the bottom line. If you can sell 10% very good, to get the word of mouth going, then 60% pretty good to good enough, these folks will talk it up as they want to convince themselves they've got something great. The remaing 30% crap isn't worth fixing as doing so would require production changes that would cost more than the returns. Remember the Ford Pinto? Ford excecs were caught on tape saying that it was cheaper to settle the lawsuits than to change design on the gas tank. Welcome to corporate America. Its why I really prefer to do business wit smaller companies like bond when I can. they still take quality control seriousely.
fightingquaker13
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Look at a Mossberg instead of the Remmy.
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I certainly agree about quality control. It lacks everywhere in the manufacturing industry.
"Ford Pinto?" Ford was the first company to put a price on a human life. After all the crashes rupturing the gas tanks and injuring people I believe Ford settled on $5,000 a person. This quote to me came second hand from a old Criminology professor of mine.
I will have to look at the Mossberg.
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Cannot agree with you more on this. The question is, "Can it be changed?". ???
As a society, we need to reverse the ideology that working with your hands is a bad thing. Going through a trade school should be encouraged. Machinists, skilled tradesman, tool and die makers, millwrights and the like are being left out in the cold because of the mass exodus of manufacturing being sent overseas.
You want to stimulate the economy? KEEP the F#@king work in this country! Teach people a trade, retrain people that are out of work, extend their benefits, give them hope, give them training, give them some inspiration and show the true power of what this country is capable of producing.....!
I call it a WORK ETHIC, it was a gift I received from my parents that I've passed on to my daughter.....Rant over, for now...
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Across many industries, overall quality controls, contracts going to the "lowest" bidder, and automation has all worked into the end product.
I guess I got lucky when I bought my Rem. 870 Early Summer 08. I have examined that thing and its a solid one.
My S&W Walther PPK/S is another on the "recall" boat, but unless you get to the S&W Performance Center, where the REAL hands of craftsman work their magic, the "main production line" is CNC.
Most have gone that route, its the controls at the end of the line that ultimately matter most before it gets to little ol' me.
We the consumer, can play a role in improving overall quality.
As a society, we need to reverse the ideology that working with your hands is a bad thing. Going through a trade school should be encouraged. Machinists, skilled tradesman, tool and die makers, millwrights and the like are being left out in the cold because of the mass exodus of manufacturing being sent overseas.
You want to stimulate the economy? KEEP the F#@king work in this country! Teach people a trade, retrain people that are out of work, extend their benefits, give them hope, give them training, give them some inspiration and show the true power of what this country is capable of producing.....!
I call it a WORK ETHIC, it was a gift I received from my parents that I've passed on to my daughter.....Rant over, for now...
Bullseye!
My grandfather told me of teaching gunsmithing in school. Imagine that! Sapulpa, OK. Sounds better than Auto Shop, but that was handy too. I don't think they even have auto shop anymore.
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There are very few good trade schools left. The only one here worth a damn in run by the sheet metal union.
The unions for the most part are dead. many of them priced them selfs out of the market. While technically I am a union contractor, I do not play by union rules. when trade unions went from where titles ment something to, where all it ment was you got more money... things went down hill fast.
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twyacht, I have been thinking just that and my wife wants to head to Sand Springs, OK. Gunsmithing is a nice trade that many of the elder generation are giving up on and opening doors. There are not very many gunsmiths in my neck of the woods and saw where one was needed in Chattanooga, Tennessee. I would love to work with someone who is been in the career for a while other than taking a class online with the University of Phoenix or some other certificate writer. ::)
Ok, that was wrong, the University of Phoenix is a accredited college. Just don't see how you can become a gunsmith without hands on training and a person present with experience to teach you the ropes. ???
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Looks like ya got AZ, NC, CO or PA to go to for actual hands on training.
http://www.gunsmithing.org/
http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.gunsmith-schools.html
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Cool. Thanks for the info Hazcat. ;)
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Cool. Thanks for the info Hazcat. ;)
We but live to serve........;D
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Tab, nice avatar! I think I just ruined my keyboard...
I've had a Mossberg 500 thats got thousands of rounds through it. I'm 38 and I've owned it since I was 15. Never a problem! 28", modified choke. My dad and others have watched me put slugs through 1" bulls eyes at 100 yards with it. GREAT GUN! Cant speak for what the new ones are like.
The quality of the Beretta is second to absolutely none IMO! Chrome lined barrel for one thing!
I love the 870 just because its so light I can carry it around all day in one hand like its a feather. Plus whoever designed that thing is EXACTLY the same size as me! No other gun I own fits me so well. Perfect fit!
I'd say their all great if you shop carefully (extra carefull with the Rem.). I did end up replacing the extractor in my 870 with a machined one. (police & marine 870's come with machined extractors, not the cast junk thats in the regular guns)
My opinion is which one's best for you is mostly a matter of personal preferance. :) BUY'EM ALL!
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twyacht, I have been thinking just that and my wife wants to head to Sand Springs, OK. Gunsmithing is a nice trade that many of the elder generation are giving up on and opening doors. There are not very many gunsmiths in my neck of the woods and saw where one was needed in Chattanooga, Tennessee. I would love to work with someone who is been in the career for a while other than taking a class online with the University of Phoenix or some other certificate writer. ::)
Ok, that was wrong, the University of Phoenix is a accredited college. Just don't see how you can become a gunsmith without hands on training and a person present with experience to teach you the ropes. ???
Probably sounding like an elitist professor snob now, so fair warning. As an instructor at the University Texas (a fancy term for a doctoral candidate who is doing a full profesors work for the princely sum of $1234 a month+tuition) I taught a real intro to American and Texas politics class. Granted, they averaged about 240 students, and for the most part I had to respond to questions by saying, "yeah you in the red hat, third row left". But still, they could ask questions, they had a prof giving lectures, I put toghether my own packet of articles from Locke, Mill Aristotle the Federalist and Anti-federalist papers etc, and I held office hours, and was available at the Crown and Anchor Pub for for 1 hour every Wednesday for less formal meetings. I also reguired 3 5-7 page papers, withthe option of doing a rewrite if you didn't like your grade", a whole lot of reading multiplied by three classes of 250, but thats what the kid's parents were paying for. If you do job, do it right. At the same time, for extra cash, I taught an online "equivelent" of the same class. This excersize in bullshit consisted of the students reading a textbook and a work book. They then had to fill out short essay style worksheets and email them to me to grade. At the end of the semester they had to show up somewhere (usualy a highschool) to take a proctored final, which I didn't write so all my online suggestions were just teaching the test. The credits were the same. Who do you think actually learned something?
Online "colleges" are diploma mills. Quite frankly the only difference between them and the ones that advertise in the back of rollingstone is the fact that you actually have to read some books and take some tests. That is very different than getting an education. If what you want is a credential, and there's nothing wrong with that, go for the "university" of Phoenix option. If you actually want to learn a trade, the apprenticeship route sounds like a much better option. You might need to do both depending on the job market. All I know is that personally I'd rather trust my gun to a guy who learned by doing, than a guy learned by reading and paid an online school for a certificate. Just my .02. If I sound pissy, well, I'm proud of being a good teache,r and it annoys me that people think I can be replaced with a text book and a worksheet, just as I'm sure it annoys Tom to think he can be replaced by a button pusher. You get what you pay for folks, and that will never change.
fightingquaker13
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I'd rather learn from a person with scars on their hands, calloused palms, and mileage on their face. The ones that can take a 1911 or M1,Winchester, Ruger, S&W, (or pick one), down to a table full of "pieces" and without even a blink put it together, improve the pieces that may need some TLC, because it doesn't "feel" right, with a 62 year old shop equip. and hand tools, make it "sing" to a playing card at 250 yds. (rifle), and never let you down.....
That's how it used to be. That's how my Grandfather did it, I was too young and stupid to not pick his brain for all he knew..
If more of that mindset and exp. was in today's industries, we would be better a better country, not buying Toyota's. (not that I'm bashing Toyota,,, my Tacoma was an awesome truck.)
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Online "colleges" are diploma mills. Quite frankly the only difference between them and the ones that advertise in the back of rollingstone is the fact that you actually have to read some books and take some tests.
fightingquaker13
It's estimated that nearly half of all masters degrees and PhD's in the United States are fake....mail order diplomas, not worth the paper their printed on....
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It's estimated that nearly half of all masters degrees and PhD's in the United States are fake....mail order diplomas, not worth the paper their printed on....
And here I wasted six years. But hey! I got a cool hat! No free CLIP though. ;D
fightingquaker13
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Probably sounding like an elitist professor snob now, so fair warning. As an instructor at the University Texas (a fancy term for a doctoral candidate who is doing a full profesors work for the princely sum of $1234 a month+tuition) I taught a real intro to American and Texas politics class. Granted, they averaged about 240 students, and for the most part I had to respond to questions by saying, "yeah you in the red hat, third row left". But still, they could ask questions, they had a prof giving lectures, I put toghether my own packet of articles from Locke, Mill Aristotle the Federalist and Anti-federalist papers etc, and I held office hours, and was available at the Crown and Anchor Pub for for 1 hour every Wednesday for less formal meetings. I also reguired 3 5-7 page papers, withthe option of doing a rewrite if you didn't like your grade", a whole lot of reading multiplied by three classes of 250, but thats what the kid's parents were paying for. If you do job, do it right. At the same time, for extra cash, I taught an online "equivelent" of the same class. This excersize in bullshit consisted of the students reading a textbook and a work book. They then had to fill out short essay style worksheets and email them to me to grade. At the end of the semester they had to show up somewhere (usualy a highschool) to take a proctored final, which I didn't write so all my online suggestions were just teaching the test. The credits were the same. Who do you think actually learned something?
Online "colleges" are diploma mills. Quite frankly the only difference between them and the ones that advertise in the back of rollingstone is the fact that you actually have to read some books and take some tests. That is very different than getting an education. If what you want is a credential, and there's nothing wrong with that, go for the "university" of Phoenix option. If you actually want to learn a trade, the apprenticeship route sounds like a much better option. You might need to do both depending on the job market. All I know is that personally I'd rather trust my gun to a guy who learned by doing, than a guy learned by reading and paid an online school for a certificate. Just my .02. If I sound pissy, well, I'm proud of being a good teache,r and it annoys me that people think I can be replaced with a text book and a worksheet, just as I'm sure it annoys Tom to think he can be replaced by a button pusher. You get what you pay for folks, and that will never change.
fightingquaker13
Makes sense to me.
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fightingquaker wrote: "Online "colleges" are diploma mills." That is my complaint and why I would not obtain a online degree/certificate course with the University of Phoenix or similar types of online colleges. I would rather work as an apprentice for a master gunsmith and learn as I go. I don't agree with the easy way out. I served our Our country to help pay for my college. Got an Associate's Degree in Criminal Justice. Took me 10 years working two jobs and taking 3 classes per semester. Took another 7 years to get my Bachelor's knocked out. I hate seeing someone pissing money away at a college/trade school that is not accredited. Just my personal opinion.
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Depends on what your looking for. If you just want "paper" so you can earn more doing what your already doing then the "diploma mills" are all right.
But if, like in your case, you want to LEARN, then it doesn't seem like there is any other way but actually BEING THERE.
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Depends on what your looking for. If you just want "paper" so you can earn more doing what your already doing then the "diploma mills" are all right.
But if, like in your case, you want to LEARN, then it doesn't seem like there is any other way but actually BEING THERE.
+1 If you want to learn something, you have to be able to get your hands dirty. But in my case...I've been doing my job for over 20 years without a degree. Although I am doing okay, changing jobs is almost not an option without that stupid piece of paper (not to mention how many years it took me to get where I'm at). I am seriousely thinking of doing the diploma mill thing in case I need to look for a job in the future.
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One thing you can look into is CLEP testing in your state. It allows people with lifetime experience to take practical knowledge tests to gain college credits and eventually receive a degree in a technical field.
I'm the same way, been working in engineering for thirty years without finishing school. I've changed jobs three times in the last 15 years and have always improved my income. Companies want versatility as well as knowledge these days. The last year, I've been instructing a kid with a Masters in engineering how to do his job.....there is only so much you can learn out of a book..
(don't worry, I don't and won't teach him everything.....I'm not getting any younger.. ;D)
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Thanks for the info Timothy.
I did look into the CLEP thing at our local college. They still required that I take at lease 60 hours of ther courses to "buy" a degree. Unfortunately...I haven't been able to fit it into my insane schedule (4 kids, and my father with severe alzheimer's).
I did change jobs once for a pretty substantial gain...but I only got in because I had worked as a contractor there for a few years and the guy that wanted me had known me for years and really fought to get them to "bend" the diploma requirement rules.
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Warning folks ... I'm going to talk in generalities here, so please don't take this as a slam on everyone that may fit some of what I list.
I was a vo-tech grad, because I could not afford college right away. At first I made fun of the "underwater basket weaving" and "music appreciation" courses in colleges. However, as I matured I started to notice differences in people. Then at the tender age of 33 I started college.
One of my first courses required that I read a major local daily paper every day. We had tests on current events, and it was a major part of our grades. In into to music and art classes I found out that there is a lot in our world affected by the classics and historical things out there. I learned that for the most part the professors that only gave grades and didn't offer pass/no pass options tended to be better teachers, and I learned more in their classes.
I have come to learn that the instant gratification and task oriented education (what we used to call "on the job training") is harming the overall population by limiting our abilities. In depth education that requires a broad base of knowledge, and an education that teaches you how to find the answers and formulate a solution is far more valuable than an education that only teaches you the end result.
Work ethic and motivation to do a good job come from not only an interest in, or a personality trait, but it is taught and reinforced by the knowledge of what is right vs. not right, and the ability to do it better. Most of our assembly line workers have the bare minimum education with no interest in learning any more, because the company will teach them how to put bolt d in hole e and start nut f, if they no longer need to put nut x on stud z to hold handle y.
Our gun assemblers should be better at making corrections in the manufacturing process, and better in research and developement than the engineers in the front office. Let the engineers figure out the exact material strengths and spring tensions needed, but the acual line worker should be the best at figuring out if this thing is going to work and last.
We are doing this to ourselves everytime we let someone slide with the bare minimum to do the job. But this is what society wants, so this is what we allow. There was a time when this company or this country produced higher priced products, but is was also a better value because the quality was better. Today all we worry about is bottom line on this item, and we don't care if we replace it next year or next decade.
I could go on for pages on a few personal experiences and knowledge on a couple of manufacturers, but I'm climbing down off the box so they can put the soap away.
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"There was a time when this company or this country produced higher priced products, but is was also a better value because the quality was better"
There used to be a time when manufacturing companies were run by manufacturers, Now everything is at the whim of bean counters.
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Along with CLEP Tests there is another test called Dantes. Both give college credits without having to pay for a full semester of one class, roughly $350 a class around here. Dantes was $50 with a $80 sitting fee.
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Warning folks ... I'm going to talk in generalities here, so please don't take this as a slam on everyone that may fit some of what I list.
I was a vo-tech grad, because I could not afford college right away. At first I made fun of the "underwater basket weaving" and "music appreciation" courses in colleges. However, as I matured I started to notice differences in people. Then at the tender age of 33 I started college.
One of my first courses required that I read a major local daily paper every day. We had tests on current events, and it was a major part of our grades. In into to music and art classes I found out that there is a lot in our world affected by the classics and historical things out there. I learned that for the most part the professors that only gave grades and didn't offer pass/no pass options tended to be better teachers, and I learned more in their classes.
I have come to learn that the instant gratification and task oriented education (what we used to call "on the job training") is harming the overall population by limiting our abilities. In depth education that requires a broad base of knowledge, and an education that teaches you how to find the answers and formulate a solution is far more valuable than an education that only teaches you the end result.
Work ethic and motivation to do a good job come from not only an interest in, or a personality trait, but it is taught and reinforced by the knowledge of what is right vs. not right, and the ability to do it better. Most of our assembly line workers have the bare minimum education with no interest in learning any more, because the company will teach them how to put bolt d in hole e and start nut f, if they no longer need to put nut x on stud z to hold handle y.
Our gun assemblers should be better at making corrections in the manufacturing process, and better in research and developement than the engineers in the front office. Let the engineers figure out the exact material strengths and spring tensions needed, but the acual line worker should be the best at figuring out if this thing is going to work and last.
We are doing this to ourselves everytime we let someone slide with the bare minimum to do the job. But this is what society wants, so this is what we allow. There was a time when this company or this country produced higher priced products, but is was also a better value because the quality was better. Today all we worry about is bottom line on this item, and we don't care if we replace it next year or next decade.
I could go on for pages on a few personal experiences and knowledge on a couple of manufacturers, but I'm climbing down off the box so they can put the soap away.
+100! I'm not in the business of just teaching names and dates, because, hell we all forget that stuff. If all we do is teach to a standardized test we might as well allow the kids to take it open book because the knowledge will be gone in a couple of years. What we need to do do is teach people how to think logically, read critically and write and argue effectively and clearly. In other words teach people how to think. I can teach more about how international relations works by spending two weeks on Thucycides "History of the Peloponisian War" written 2500 years ago, than I can in a semester of study on current world politics. Reading Arisotle or Locke or the Federalist papers isn't hard. The thing is it gives you the PRINCIPLES behind our form of government, not just the details. I always spend a solid month doing nothing but going over these works and the Constitution and Declaration because I think they're the most important things these kids will ever get .(See the posts about democracy vs Republican forms of government for evidence.). You're right that too often schools are all about outcome, teaching a skill set that may become obsolete within a few years, as opposed to training the mind of a student to be someone who can educate thmselves for the rest of their lives. Its a crime. That being said, Tom's right, if you need the paper, get the paper. Nothing wrong with that.
fightingquaker13
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+100! I'm not in the business of just teaching names and dates, because, hell we all forget that stuff. If all we do is teach to a standardized test we might as well allow the kids to take it open book because the knowledge will be gone in a couple of years. What we need to do do is teach people how to think logically, read critically and write and argue effectively and clearly. In other words teach people how to think. I can teach more about how international relations works by spending two weeks on Thucycides "History of the Peloponisian War" written 2500 years ago, than I can in a semester of study on current world politics. Reading Arisotle or Locke or the Federalist papers isn't hard. The thing is it gives you the PRINCIPLES behind our form of government, not just the details. I always spend a solid month doing nothing but going over these works and the Constitution and Declaration because I think they're the most important things these kids will ever get .(See the posts about democracy vs Republican forms of government for evidence.). You're right that too often schools are all about outcome, teaching a skill set that may become obsolete within a few years, as opposed to training the mind of a student to be someone who can educate thmselves for the rest of their lives. Its a crime. That being said, Tom's right, if you need the paper, get the paper. Nothing wrong with that.
fightingquaker13
AMEN !! When I started school the purpose was to teach kids HOW to think, by 9th grade when I quit they were focusing more and more on trying to teach kids WHAT to think. Pretty much everything I post here comes from reading history and THINKING about what I've read, then overlaying the same scenario on modern events which tend to be discouragingly repetitive of histories screw ups.
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Great response M58. This subject seems to have the wheels turning in our minds. Nice food for thought and a change of pace from the norm. Funny how some of the thoughts I had were just local but you all have shown that it affects us all no matter what the demographics are in the United States.